US-backed coup in Venezuela not so smooth

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

1 minute ago, Jouhou said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Putin was goading Trump to invade venezuela. Just because it would weaken us. 

Sorry, but even in the worst Hollywood action movie they wouldn't go as far as to choose such a silly scenario.

But thank you! You made me good laugh saying that "these stupid games they want to play". Not you, but "them". How convenient!

"The U.S. Doesn't want to play anymore"

- Oh, boy! If the U.S. didn't really want to play they would sit still and stop meddling in every country's internal affairs. Be it East, Middle-east, Americas, Russia, Ukraine, Africa, Yugoslavia or even Sweden.

But OK. That was your point of view, thanks. I'll stick to mine.

Cheers!

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

xxx, so there!

Actually, Dan, I was simply deleting a post which was a duplicate, to clean up the Board.  The software here does not allow for a post to be completely blank, so I replaced it with some innocuous keystrokes.  There was no "meaning" attached nor directed at anyone.  Apparently only a Moderator can completely cleanse a post to zero status.  For everybody else, you have to leave "something," hence the two xx keystrokes. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

Actually, Dan, I was simply deleting a post which was a duplicate, to clean up the Board.  The software here does not allow for a post to be completely blank, so I replaced it with some innocuous keystrokes.  There was no "meaning" attached nor directed at anyone.  Apparently only a Moderator can completely cleanse a post to zero status.  For everybody else, you have to leave "something," hence the two xx keystrokes. 

It was supposed to be a joke.  My humor sometimes falls flat, eh?  Ha-ha!  Or is your comment more to get the message through to the site about the lack of ability to delete one of our own posts?

You see, the tone around here right at the moment seems to be a bunch of "Oh yeah?  Well I know more than you do."  So it struck me as an opportunity to make something out of pure nothing, hence:  "xx" followed by "xxx, so there!"

Anyway, have a Coke and a Smile!

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

4 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

It was supposed to be a joke.  My humor sometimes falls flat, eh?  Ha-ha!  Or is your comment more to get the message through to the site about the lack of ability to delete one of our own posts?

You see, the tone around here right at the moment seems to be a bunch of "Oh yeah?  Well I know more than you do."  So it struck me as an opportunity to make something out of pure nothing, hence:  "xx" followed by "xxx, so there!"

Anyway, have a Coke and a Smile!

Oh, I got your humor, Dan!   Yup, it was an oblique message to the Board. You got my number!

As for the tone here, yup it is just awful.  Headed for some Yahoo! board re-run.  Not intellectual at all. Oh, well.

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

3 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Or I can just block them.  Thanks, Serhii!  I had my suspicions...

Sure!

It's always easier to block someone whose views are different from the mainstream dominant narrative.. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

11 minutes ago, Maxim Androsov said:

Sure!

It's always easier to block someone whose views are different from the mainstream dominant narrative.. 

Here's your problem, "Maxim:"  you don't have "views."  You are trolling.  You are a Putin apologist.  You say that you are not paid by the FSB, but it sure looks like you are.  You try to excuse the mass murder of airline passengers, for which there is no excuse.  Mass murder is always mass murder.  You try to excuse Putin sending in green-shirted mercenaries into the Donbass and Crimea with some pathetic rubbish about "U.S.-engineered coup", a claim so utterly vapid and ridiculous that you end up looking like a total fool.  And you actually think that anybody here is going to be persuaded by this obscenely-insulting rubbish, obscene to the Ukrainians and insulting to the Dead of Flight 17. 

Here is the reality of Russia:  Russians have surrendered themselves to a sociopath, Putin, who is also turning the place into a kleptocracy.  Putin's gang steals the wealth of Russia for themselves, and Putin himself has these ideas of returning to the days of the Russian Empire. So he invades his neighbors and tries to cover it up by saying that the troops are "invited" by somebody or other in order to "protect" Russian-speakers from - who? The CIA?  The MI6? The Germans?  Oh, that's right:  those Dutchmen disguised as Waffen-SS Nazis.  There we go.  Lots of those guys running around. 

You are pathetic, Maxim.  You have sold your soul to a madman, and turned yourself into a troll.  Take a good look at yourself in the mirror. 

I think you should go away, and hang your head in shame. You have no morals, that has become perfectly clear.  You try to excuse shooting down Malaysian airliners at 34,000 feet as - what? - a mis-event orchestrated by Ukrainian air traffic controllers?  Do you seriously think that anybody here is going to swallow that garbage?  And you do that for - what?  To stay in the good graces of Putin and his thugs? 

Pathetic.  What a troll.

[Rodent + 1,424]

in an effort to steer the conversation back to Venezuela ...

fact: Venezuela is falling apart at the seams and people are dying.

fact: Venezuela is beholden to China, Russia, and US bondholders. every one of those who have money tied up in Venezuela have a horse in the race, so to speak, and therefore will act accordingly. Those acts, while they might be self-serving as an aside, may still accomplish good. 

fact: pdvsa has been used as a cookie jar for both the Chavez and Maduro regime. the mismanagement, corruption, and lack of investment into its primary source of revenue has played a huge part, if not all, in Venezuela's demise.

Not fact (but a truth nonetheless): no amount of humanitarian aid is going to right that ship. it is a Band-Aid. one must root out the disease, not just treat the symptoms. The disease is the leadership and the mindset of the sheeple that follow, who are but a victim of their circumstance.

fact: the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela, and they're no doubt is one, has no risk-free solution. the options for bringing Venezuela out of the doldrums all come with risks, side effects, and likely collateral damage. there are pros and cons of every proposed solution to end their citizens' suffering. we can argue what the correct solution is until the cows come home. and why not. Let the debate begin. 

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

36 minutes ago, Rodent said:

in an effort to steer the conversation back to Venezuela ...

fact: Venezuela is falling apart at the seams and people are dying.

 

I wrote you a really nice post and then the machine went blooey, so it was deleted in its entirety in the re-start and re-boot.  Oh, well. 

Let me say, in short, that these thug regimes typically collapse when the army changes sides.  That was the case with Romania and the collapse of Ceausescu.  Ultimately he was executed by firing squad.  A fitting end, to be sure. 

Can the army be motivated to change sides?  Sure it can.  What it takes is a display of military might, something dramatic.  I suggest a big M1A2 Abrams Tank on that border bridge with Colombia, where Maduro has parked some shipping container and an oil tank trailer cross-ways to block the aid convoys.  The tank rolls up and fires one shell into the blockade, blowing it to smithereens.  Then a bulldozer pushes the stuff over the side. The road is cleared, the big tanks roll on across, the aid trucks roll, and the local army commander has a choice:  does he shoot at the tanks, guaranteeing martyrdom to Maduro, or does he change sides?  Well, you already know the answer.  

In that scenario, it takes one tank and one shell.  Is anybody ready to step up to the plate? 

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

2 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Here's your problem, "Maxim:"  you don't have "views."  You are trolling.  You are a Putin apologist.  

Here is your problem Jan: whatever truth or evidence I put in front of you, that is hard proven evidence, like, for instance, 20-30 million civilians killed in 37 nations by the U.S. military since WWII you will always be changing subject and will always apply a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy to try to discredit my position, as your opponent, by charging me with "Putin apologist" or else. You cannot refute or disprove my arguments so you keep charging calling me "a troll". That's pathetic Jan!

I'm saying "USA is responsible for the regime change in Ukraine and for igniting a civil war there". That's been proven by many think tanks already, including american Stratfor. And your response to that  - it's all Putin's fault.

"I'm saying the U.S. should not start another war and should not invade Venezuela" and the responses I get here - Look at how Russia invaded Ukraine and that I should feel ashamed that Russia didn't acknowledge shooting down MH-17. 

I'm not a Putin's apologist. I don't like that guy and I voted against him. I'm in stark disagreement with his domestic policies and the way he governs Russia. I just don't like the mainstream narrative when people like you will always say "It's all Putin's or Russia's fault" whatever happens in the world. That's wrong and I don't like it.

Whatever I say to you, you will be a priori in disagreement with me. It is called fallacy Jan. Or otherwise you are just a poor racist hating all Russians, especially those who are in disagreement with you.

Hence, there is no point for you in lecturing me on democracy, history or something else. Especially when you know for yourself that you are so much biased and prejudiced towards anything that is called Russia or Russian. Save for yourself all your "hang your head in shame" fallacy and keep enjoying calling me a "troll". I don't care. I know that when you have little or nothing to say, then calling me "a troll" is the best possible scenario for you to escape any sensible discussion.

I suggest you read this in order to fill the obvious gaps in your education.

http://us-russia.org/2902-in-ukraine-us-interests-are-incompatible-with-the-interests-of-the-russian-federation-stratfor-chief-george-friedman-on-the-roots-of-the-ukraine-crisis.html

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

12 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

In that scenario, it takes one tank and one shell.  Is anybody ready to step up to the plate? 

Oh, all right.  Where's the tank and what airport is closest?  Do the tanks have Wifi?  I'll have to report back to all the Generals here on Oil Price.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Dan Warnick

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

52 minutes ago, Rodent said:

fact: the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela, and they're no doubt is one, has no risk-free solution. the options for bringing Venezuela out of the doldrums all come with risks, side effects, and likely collateral damage. there are pros and cons of every proposed solution to end their citizens' suffering. we can argue what the correct solution is until the cows come home. and why not. Let the debate begin. 

 

Seems like best scenario for venezuelans will be if Maduro is convinced by his military to step down. No bloodshed, no civil war, no intervention, army takes control, sanctions lifting, new elections, country walks back to normal life.

I hope it happens that way with no tanks rolling down the streets. Or bridges.. 

[Rodent + 1,424]

1 minute ago, Maxim Androsov said:

Seems like best scenario for venezuelans will be if Maduro is convinced by his military to step down. No bloodshed, no civil war, no intervention, army takes control, sanctions lifting, new elections, country walks back to normal life.

I hope it happens that way with no tanks rolling down the streets. Or bridges.. 

that for sure would be ideal, but I think it is a rarity for someone to willingly step down from power even under duress. if he did that, what would be his fate?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

On 2/26/2019 at 11:19 PM, Rodent said:

that for sure would be ideal, but I think it is a rarity for someone to willingly step down from power even under duress. if he did that, what would be his fate?

Agreed.  But his fate is going to be the same, one way or the other, I think.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Dan Warnick

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

12 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Oh, all right.  Where's the tank and what airport is closest?  Do the tanks have Wifi?  I'll have to report back to all the Generals here on Oil Price.

OK, Dan, you win, I give up.  White flag being flown.  I gotta get back to work.  Venezuela will unfold as it will. Bye.

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

1 hour ago, Rodent said:

fact: Venezuela is beholden to China, Russia, and US bondholders. every one of those who have money tied up in Venezuela have a horse in the race, so to speak, and therefore will act accordingly. Those acts, while they might be self-serving as an aside, may still accomplish good. 

 

Another scenario: China or Russia convince Maduro to step down and by doing so they protect their rather large investments they hold in Venezuela. Or get assurances to recover them.  

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

51 minutes ago, Rodent said:

that for sure would be ideal, but I think it is a rarity for someone to willingly step down from power even under duress. if he did that, what would be his fate?

As I mentioned in another comment here, if China and Russia convince Maduro to step down, they could possibly struck some deal to protect their investments. As part of the deal that guy could be allowed to take a refuge somewhere. In Cuba maybe?

Edited February 26, 2019 by Maxim Androsov

[Serhii Li + 13]

3 hours ago, Maxim Androsov said:

I'm saying "USA is responsible for the regime change in Ukraine and for igniting a civil war there"

Maxim, would you agree with the statement 

"Jews [in Hitler's opinion] were responsible for regime change in Russia and igniting a civil war there, thus, Hitler had to discharge his military to USSR and annex territories required for German survival". 

Seems exactly what Russia did in 2014 with Ukraine. Moreover, Crimea annexation was 1:1 copy of Austria anschluss.

And again, "USA is responsible for the regime change" and "USA supported (mostly morally) those who fought Yanukovich regime" have very different meaning. Yanukovich regime was some kind of light version of Maduro regime, and Yanukovich and his band did all they can do to help Maidan overthrow them - i.e. they made all the wrong decisions - they pludnered Ukraine to their own good, they applied force against innocent unarmed people in the beginning, tried to pass restrictive laws punishing protesters in the middle, used joint police+criminals forces to fight protesters and so on. Thus, Yanukovich got what he deserved and fled to his patron to Russia. US has just shown people in Ukraine that they do not support this piece of sh1t. Or, maybe, you disagree, that Yanukovich was piece of sh1t? 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Serhii Li

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

17 hours ago, Rodent said:

I can't imagine any calling higher than wife and mother. 

Fair enough - If that's what the woman wants for her life.  It just seems like some of these men expect women to fall into stereotypical roles - like if they aren't in the kitchen baking an apple pie they are not proper Christian women.  

[Maxim Androsov + 31]

3 hours ago, Serhii Li said:

Maxim, would you agree with the statement 

"Jews [in Hitler's opinion] were responsible for regime change in Russia and igniting a civil war there, thus, Hitler had to discharge his military to USSR and annex territories required for German survival". 

Seems exactly what Russia did in 2014 with Ukraine. Moreover, Crimea annexation was 1:1 copy of Austria anschluss.

And again, "USA is responsible for the regime change" and "USA supported (mostly morally) those who fought Yanukovich regime" have very different meaning. Yanukovich regime was some kind of light version of Maduro regime, and Yanukovich and his band did all they can do to help Maidan overthrow them - i.e. they made all the wrong decisions - they pludnered Ukraine to their own good, they applied force against innocent unarmed people in the beginning, tried to pass restrictive laws punishing protesters in the middle, used joint police+criminals forces to fight protesters and so on. Thus, Yanukovich got what he deserved and fled to his patron to Russia. US has just shown people in Ukraine that they do not support this piece of sh1t. Or, maybe, you disagree, that Yanukovich was piece of sh1t? 

 

Serhii, I feel sorry for you. Honestly. You have jumped yesterday into this thread with silly accusations that me and Observatus Geopoliticus are Putin’s paid trolls.
You don’t know me, you don’t know the other guy (who is French), you never entered into any discussion with us, but you already decided for yourself and suggested to the audience here that we are “paid trolls”. Just because you noticed that we have been arguing here with some fellow “American partners” on some issues that you personally seem didn’t find in comfort with. Like on Ukraine. 

You and me we both perfectly know that the issue of Ukraine is much more complex than our American friends can possibly understand and digest. They are unaware, for instance, that on the 2nd May 2014 Ukrainian Nazi thugs have murdered, beaten to death, burned alive about 100 innocent people, including pregnant women, in Odessa Worker’s Union building. All that was thoroughly video and photo documented. Nevertheless, no any investigation was carried out neither by the Ukrainian puppet state nor by UN not by any other the European authority. That massacre will always be remembered and regarded as mass murder executed by the fascist Ukrainian puppet regime. Odessa remembers it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWZCu0fhVbw

Our American friends on this forum don’t know, for instance, that 4 members of my family had to flee from Luhansk in Eastern Ukraine after Ukrainian fighter jet fired missiles to city administrative building on the 2nd June 2014 killing 8 people and wounding another 28. My relatives lived just a block away from the building.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDzCsFhMXPQ

Those my relatives had to flee to Russia, to Novorossiysk. We gave them shelter in our house that we have there, helped them with the money and with finding job. Today they are Russian citizens. Russia has accepted more than 2,5 million Ukrainian refugees since the civil war started there. These facts are not known to our American friends either. 

Serhii. Yesterday you have appealed to people on this forum not to waste their time and not to enter into any discussion with “Putin’s trolls” like me and Observatus Geopoliticus. You have suggested they should simply ignore us. 

Today you are coming here inviting me to talk to you on Ukraine and Yanukovich?

Too bad you didn’t follow your own advice to ignore me…

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Maxim Androsov
English only per forum guidelines.

[TXPower + 643]

2 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Fair enough - If that's what the woman wants for her life.  It just seems like some of these men expect women to fall into stereotypical roles - like if they aren't in the kitchen baking an apple pie they are not proper Christian women.  

“Proper Christian women”, huh? Tell us, what does the stereotypical male of say the Muslim, Hindu or Jewish religion expect of their proper wives.  Just curious.

[Rodent + 1,424]

Venezuela. This thread is about Venezuela. Off topic posts will be removed. Feel free to start another thread about other topics.

[TXPower + 643]

4 minutes ago, Rodent said:

Venezuela. This thread is about Venezuela. Off topic posts will be removed. Feel free to start another thread about other topics.

Yes, sorry Rodent.

[Observatus Geopoliticus + 96]

19 hours ago, Jouhou said:

OK, makes sense, you didn't otherwise come off Indian so I was confused.

As for the entities labeled as the "deep state" they don't want us intervening in Venezuela. It's a damn trap. I don't like it and I don't trust it, and most of our "imperialist" politicians don't either. Except for Marco Rubio, he seems to be getting hot and bothered at the thought of it. But he's Cuban, American Cubans really hate anything they associate with Cuba.

I disagree with you. The Deep State is deeply involved in the energetic Great game aiming at controling world's hydrocarbures. Not to steal it as some would say. Just control the energetic sources and roads in order to have a grip on the planet. Venezzuela, with its fabulous reserves, is a prize for the Deep State.

Ths usual imperialists suspects completely support the move : neocons and neolibs, MSM...

[Observatus Geopoliticus + 96]

10 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Let me say, in short, that these thug regimes typically collapse when the army changes sides.  That was the case with Romania and the collapse of Ceausescu.  Ultimately he was executed by firing squad.  A fitting end, to be sure.

Nah, the thug regimes don't collapse when they're supported by the US : Saudi Arabia (gold medal of thugish regimes), Qatar, Turkey. Koweit, Bahrein...

[Zhong Lu + 845]

22 hours ago, Maxim Androsov said:

Seems like best scenario for venezuelans will be if Maduro is convinced by his military to step down. No bloodshed, no civil war, no intervention, army takes control, sanctions lifting, new elections, country walks back to normal life.

 I hope it happens that way with no tanks rolling down the streets. Or bridges.. 

That's a reasonable proposition.  I can support that.  Only problem is this: Maduro is stubborn and incompetent.   It's like the worst combination for everyone involved.