Trump to Make Allies Pay More to Host US Bases

17 hours ago, NickW said:

The people who are scared of Russia are those inbetween. Poland, Rumania and especially the Baltic States.

Only scared because of the constant scaremongering from the media, retired military  (with a cold war mentality) and so called military pundits. 

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On 3/13/2019 at 5:41 AM, Enthalpic said:

Yeah underestimate Germany's ability to quickly rebuild its military... again.

Don't underestimate the guilt the Germany still feels for WW1 + WW2. 

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11 hours ago, Romka said:

Only scared because of the constant scaremongering from the media, retired military  (with a cold war mentality) and so called military pundits. 

This is disingenuous. The Poles for one are rabidly anti-Russian.

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Great. I hope it leads to the closure of many overseas bases.  Maybe this is Trump's way of closing bases, and getting around Deep State resistance to his policies... ...Let the countries kick us out. We all saw the ugly backlash when he tried to wind down and bring home troops from Syria and Afghanistan. "Mad Dog" resigned in protest, and the CNN/MSM got very angry with one talking head after another talking down the concept of de-escalation. 

I remember the good ol' days when diplomacy, LOTS of diplomacy, was always carried out to prevent catastrophic military actions and wars. Now war is a first choice, for all the wrong reasons. The DOD used to be called what it is: Department of War. President Carter was the last President with no wars on his watch. 

I saw things clearly during my 6 years in the US Army.

The politicians in the host countries view bases as "good for the economy", and make-work programs for the civillian employees at the bases. 

But among the citizens in countries like Germany and Japan (which were invaded and destroyed), their is great resentment and a feeling of being an foreign-occupied nation. Disrespect for "G.I.'s" runs deep. 

The world urgently needs to de-militarize as much as possible. The current path will lead to WW3 sooner rather than later... ...nobody wins.  

Einstein said it best: "World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones". 

 

Peace

 

 

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On 3/10/2019 at 4:33 PM, Guillaume Albasini said:

A good opportunity for Europe to get rid of the US bases. World War II is over, the Cold war is over. I's time to end this military presence from an other age.

It could happen due to the socialist and globalist trend in Western Europe. They would deserve what they get. They have forgotten what can happen and have let their countries become virtual dictatorships. Even Britain is ignoring the will of its people. 

One World Government AKA Globalism https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k8kNhtZJLuN66TpDuo67WBV1U2JhhZIvAefxeMNK0ls/edit

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(edited)

On 3/10/2019 at 4:58 PM, Guillaume Albasini said:

If you put your defense in the hands of another country you have to trust this country and since Trump was elected  Europe doesn't trust the US anymore.

"Europe must take its destiny in its own hands " (Angela Merkel)

"European nations should not allow "other major powers, including allies" to "put themselves in a situation to decide our diplomacy [and] security for us."  (Emmanuel Macron)

 

 

Macron has a 28% approval rating Merkel or May about the same. Trump is far more popular. 

https://ntknetwork.com/expert-trump-is-more-popular-than-european-leaders/

https://www.dw.com/en/germans-unhappy-with-merkel-government-amid-migration-spat/a-44547346

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-16/macron-s-approval-rating-rises-to-28-percent-ifop-poll-shows

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-poll-approval-record-low-rating-brexit-chequers-deal-a8466796.html

Edited by ronwagn
added reference
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On 3/13/2019 at 4:37 PM, Enthalpic said:

It's not much of a secret. Funny thing is Trump still called us a national security threat because of our steel and aluminum.  😂

Mexico will never pay for your wall, but you will continue to pay for our defense - it's an unavoidable byproduct of defending Alaska and having access to strategic resources.

Actually,   Canada becomes less and less useful to the USA as each year passes....

As soon as the WALL on the Mexican border is finished,  and we throw a ton of invaders onto the other side of it,   we will save almost 100 billion per year that we are paying for mostly Mexican citizens......  That means that Mexico will then have to start paying for those people again........  So,  YES,  in the end,  Mexico WILL pay for the Wall....

After that,  perhaps sooner,   we will have to start    BUILDING A WALL ON OUR CANADIAN BORDER TOO.........

Too many invaders coming into the USA from Canada too....

And too many Canadians are like you,  they take the USA for granted,  and think the USA needs you.........

We don't........

And YES,  in the end,  Canada will pay for that WALL,  and will be wishing they had not allowed all the crap to happen that caused us to build it.........

 

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On 3/13/2019 at 9:21 PM, Enthalpic said:

Thankfully several other nations think the same - attacking us would be too much of a tipping point so we are immune.

you are not immune to anything..........

 

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On 3/13/2019 at 10:11 PM, Enthalpic said:

3 oceans

WOW....

Finally you said something i could agree with.........

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(edited)

2 hours ago, Personal Coach said:

Great. I hope it leads to the closure of many overseas bases.  Maybe this is Trump's way of closing bases, and getting around Deep State resistance to his policies... ...Let the countries kick us out. We all saw the ugly backlash when he tried to wind down and bring home troops from Syria and Afghanistan. "Mad Dog" resigned in protest, and the CNN/MSM got very angry with one talking head after another talking down the concept of de-escalation. 

I remember the good ol' days when diplomacy, LOTS of diplomacy, was always carried out to prevent catastrophic military actions and wars. Now war is a first choice, for all the wrong reasons. The DOD used to be called what it is: Department of War. President Carter was the last President with no wars on his watch. 

I saw things clearly during my 6 years in the US Army.

The politicians in the host countries view bases as "good for the economy", and make-work programs for the civillian employees at the bases. 

But among the citizens in countries like Germany and Japan (which were invaded and destroyed), their is great resentment and a feeling of being an foreign-occupied nation. Disrespect for "G.I.'s" runs deep. 

The world urgently needs to de-militarize as much as possible. The current path will lead to WW3 sooner rather than later... ...nobody wins.  

Einstein said it best: "World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones". 

 

Peace

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you said.......

Except that while there were no wars fought BY Carter,  his "CARTER DOCTRINE" started wars in Iran, Iraq, El Salvador, etc.........

The Europeans,  with the exception of Poland, Hungary, and the Czech & Slovakian republics,  take the USA for granted..........  

We should remove most of our bases from Europe....  Keep what bases we DO keep only in the 4 nations i just mentioned,  AND WE SHOULD DISSOLVE NATO............

 

Let the Europeans take care of themselves.........  No more money from us for bases,  and all that our troops spend in their economy,  etc......

Dissolve NATO to keep our military equipment and secrets from falling into the wrong hands.........

 

Within a year,  they will be BEGGING THE RUSSIANS TO INVADE THEM........  

But the Russians are too smart.........

And we have no reason to go back.........

 

By 2050,  based on what we are seeing,  Europe will be a Muslim majority area,  and the remaining White, Christians,  in Europe will be begging to be allowed to immigrate to the USA or Russia.......

Edited by Illurion
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4 hours ago, Personal Coach said:

Maybe this is Trump's way of closing bases, and getting around Deep State resistance to his policies... ...Let the countries kick us out

You and I are of a mind. I think the major reason for Trump’s verbal attacks on Europe, especially Germany, is to force them to pull out of NATO on their own. It seems to be having some effect. Right now it’s just words but France and Germany are starting to talk of an EU army. We’ll see where that goes.

It is very hard to do it on our end with the Deep State obstructing his every move. When he mocked the idea of the US fighting a war on behalf of Macedonia the msm and Deep State howled. 

It’s absurd to think we should be obligated to die for Macedonia or whatever they’re calling themselves. No one even asked that question. The msm is especially transparent. They hate the military and portray every military action under Republicans as evil yet here they acted as though it was some great betrayal. And of course they and their children would never be the ones fighting and dying. It was just another opportunity to attack Trump.

It’s the main reason today I would advise my kids to not join the military and if there were a draft and it was to fight a war for Macedonia I’d recommend they evade the draft and I’d help them. No American life is worth anything in Macedonia.

It’s equally absurd to think we should be obligated to defend Turkey who is now our frenemy and who I believe will be more of an adversary in the future.

This is why, in this case, I do think it was premature of Trump to declare we’re leaving Syria. I think we need to set it up there so that Turkey is weakened.

But you’re right Mattis and the Deep State will always oppose our leaving anywhere whether it makes sense or not. These generals and admirals are more politicians than anything and are looking to maintain their networks and secure a cushy position at some defense contractor after retirement. They are really not working in our best interest.

 

4 hours ago, Personal Coach said:

The politicians in the host countries view bases as "good for the economy", and make-work programs for the civillian employees at the bases. 

 

Yup they milk the situation. I remember a story about a US general criticizing German workers as lazy. They protested in response. I'm sure they still received their pay while protesting too.

 

4 hours ago, Personal Coach said:

But among the citizens in countries like Germany and Japan (which were invaded and destroyed), their is great resentment and a feeling of being an foreign-occupied nation. Disrespect for "G.I.'s" runs deep. 

Here’s Merkel (paraphrasing) ‘Germany is to Europe what America is to the world: unloved but necessary’

This was at the time when the southern Europeans believed austerity was being forced on them after the Great Recession by northern Europeans, above all Germany. These countries are in tough spots. They can't defend themselves so they rely on us.

I think everyone shares your sentiment on peace, the big problem is no one can agree on what peace is and I have to disagree that disarming is the solution. The Romans learned long ago, “If you want peace, prepare for war”. They were fighting wars non-stop for 1500 years and not for fun.

I do agree we need fewer bases around the world. We just have to pick what’s really important to us. Defending the Macedonias of the world isn’t.

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anyone who thinks we are in "protecting" Europe for the goodness of our hearts as a charity is delusional. If the US is not benefiting from staying there then we could get out tomorrow. Nobody is holding our hands and tying our feet to keep us there.

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Beyond some of the peripheral issues mentioned above by other posters, there is only one reason the US has been allowed to maintain military bases in Europe.  It’s the same reason we’ve been there all along.  Russia.  

Send us packing if you will.  But be prepared for your own defense.  We in turn could cut our military spending on a huge scale which would improve our economy.  We would still be able to develop the advanced weapons systems necessary for today and tomorrow to counter the threat posed by the re-surgent Russian threat.  

Russia is a real threat.  Not like the Democrats say they are a threat, from a “Collusion” standpoint.  They are a military threat.  Folks who say their technology is inadequate and behind ours are uninformed.  Here is an article that although almost 5 years old sums up that threat.  I can’t imagine their arms having gotten anything but more potent: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/five-russian-weapons-war-nato-should-fear-10816

Do a google search for reported but not officially confirmed signal jamming and negation of US supplied military technology in Ukraine.  

The Russians have been concentrating their time and money on area denial which would significantly limit our ability to establish and maintain what we’ve grown used to, air superiority.  

This isn’t the place to go into it but we haven’t even begun to address the ever increasing conventional and non conventional threat posed by China.  

And yes, the poster that pointed out that US military bases in Europe benefits us, absolutely they do.  But from a cost-benefit analysis, “The Times, they are a changin”.

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@TXPower 

are you saying leaving Europe will hurt US interests?

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On 3/13/2019 at 7:11 PM, Enthalpic said:

3 oceans

Russia has been busy in the Arctic ocean the past few years. Testing the waters so to speak.

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1 hour ago, thor said:

@TXPower 

are you saying leaving Europe will hurt US interests?

I’m saying the answer to that question is less clear today than it was during the first Cold War.

There are many variables to consider and lenses the problem should be viewed through before that question should be answered.  

 

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(edited)

You should check some facts

This year Russia will spend about  45-50  bilions $ on military budget.

USA in 2019 alone something about 750 bilions.

European Union members of NATO about 250 bilions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_Russian_Federation

Soviet_and_Russian_military_expenditures

USA has 800 foreign military bases

Russia only 2 or 3.

Russia is of course a poor country in comparison with the West in nominal gdp but lets check not only gdp but also debt to gdp.

We have a situation where russian debt to gdp is today about 10% and in last year it has 2,7 % of gdp budget surplus in 70 $ oil environment that is rather sustainable in near future.

https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/government-budget

https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/government-debt-to-gdp   - at the end of 2017

In fact during last year according to Putin statements to Duma (parlament) thanks to sanctions Russian reserves of 480 bilions  $ became higher that public and private external debt = 450 bilions $.

https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/external-debt

https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/foreign-exchange-reserves

Last year it also has about 200 bilions trade surplus  alone and about 130 bilions of current account surplus.

https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/balance-of-trade

https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/current-account

Lets asume thats rather a rock solid financial situation.

Dont forget about Nord Stream II Turkish Stream Power of Syberia and that Russia has Bazhenov field biggest shale oil field in the world - you can expect quite higher money flow in a futute. Just  from Power of Syberia and second gas pipeline to China (western route) = 68 bilions meters of gas flowing to China = something like 20 bilions $ per year maybe more.

https://www.reuters.com/article/russia-shale-kemp/column-the-big-one-russias-bazhenov-shale-kemp-idUSL6N0PR1OP20140716

At the same time a lot of western states although of course much more wealthy has a debt about 80- 100 % of gdp or even more and still counting fast especially in US -  this year a deficit of 1 trillion $..

In a situation that we know from history that global war is a great moment to reset your national debt to foreign collectors if  you win this war. And thats  for sure not a good situation when you want to collect your receivables peacyfully.

So tell me and you can check all my facts in net who is more desperate to start global war.

Edited by Tomasz
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50 minutes ago, Tomasz said:

You should check some facts

This year Russia will spend about  45-50  bilions $ on military budget.

USA in 2019 alone something about 750 bilions.

European Union members of NATO about 250 bilions.

USA has 800 foreign military bases

Russia only 2 or 3.

In a situation where russian debt to gdp is less than 10% and in last year it has 2,9 % of gdp budget surplus in 70 $ oil environment that is rather sustainable. In fact during last year according to Putin statements Russian reserves of 480 bilions  $ became higher that public and private debt = 450 bilions $. It has 200 bilions trade surplus last year alone and about 130 bilions of current account surplus. Lets asume that rather a rock solid financial situation.

At the same time a lot of western states has a debt about 80- 100 % of gdp or even more and still counting fast.

In a situation that we know from history that global war is a great moment to reset your national debt to foreign collectors if  you win this war. And thats  for sure not a good situation when you want to collect your receivables peacyfully.

So tell me and you can check all my facts in net who is more desperate to start global war.

I never said that Russia wanted to start a war, though the business in Ukraine could and has been discussed here at length as a warlike aggression.  Russia has definitely taken a more aggressive posture since President Putin came to power.  Yes, we should and I do within limits, acknowledge that some of our and NATO’s choices after the dissolution of the USSR can be considered to some degree cause and effect.  Still, I stand by my assertion that Russia is a threat.  Do you deny that Russia considers the US a threat.  This is rather elementary, no?

I also do not make the assertion that Russia spends more on defense than we do.  They can’t, not even close.  Did you read the article I linked?  In some way it’s a compliment that they are doing more with less in terms of their military technology and readiness pitted against our own.  Clever and resilient they are.  I admire this.

Which brings me round to the fact that as long as Russia possibly has the ability to overcome our military technology with their own we will continue to develop as will the Russians.  Until one of us goes broke.  Putin’s boasting about national cash reserves notwithstanding care to lay odds now who that will be?  See dissolution of USSR circa 1991 and likely causes in the history books.  Not to mention what happens when world oil prices drop.  Even if they figure BE at say $35 a barrel.  Look on the bright side, this vicious cycle keeps people employed on both sides. 

If you are Russian and I offended you I am sorry.  

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(edited)

Russia is an aggressive imperial country and it has always been, which is why it has now 17 million square kilometers and started from very small territory in XIV century. It took her more than 500 years to collect all russian lands and its very well known process in global history.

The very green colour is the fatherland of Moscow empire in XIII century= quite small one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Moscow#/media/File:Muscovy_1390_1525.png

But apart from that  Russia during history was an imperial state rather very succesfull in conquering russian core lands after lands no great power could allow rather hostile military alliance to approach its borders. Since the US, relying on the Monroe doctrine, was ready to go to the edge of a nuclear war during Cuban crisis, it is no wonder that Russia has caused a civil and rather local war in Ukraine.

All of you should read about 3 western invasions on Russia- at the beginning of XVIII century Charles XII of Sweden, in 1812 allied Europe under Napoleon Bonaparte and in 1941 Wehrmacht.

Especially because Charles XII and Hitler decided that main attack during their wars would go through Ukraine and most fights were there. Both of them has also rather significant ammount of Ukraine collaborators against Russia = like hetman Mazepa under Charles XII  or Ukrainians forces allied with Wehrmacht.

And apart from a fact that after nearly 700 years of never ending teritorial expansion before World War I in last 100 years Russian teritory is shrinking.

You can compare it with Great Britain France Spain or Portugal colonial empires= maybe apart of UK  they fought really hard  and long to save their own sphere of infuence and France even now try to divide et impera in Africa.

And even Uk fought in US, in South Africa for long time didnt want to give India or Ireland independence and still has Northern Ireland problem which is main problem in Brexit deal.. In fact you can easily compare Russian Ukrainian relations to Brittish Irish relations and Crimea to Northern Ireland.

 

Edited by Tomasz
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On 3/14/2019 at 2:39 PM, shadowkin said:

This is disingenuous. The Poles for one are rabidly anti-Russian.

Absolutely. And if i was Eastern European, I'd worry about Russia, and a militarized Germany too. 

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@TXPower 

What I was getting at, in short is this: The current geopolitical/economic set up of the world benefits the US immensely, more than any other country. Hence our military presence all over the world, to support that set up and our interests. We're not in Europe to support Europe's interests. We're in Europe to support our interests. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't be there.

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(edited)

On 3/14/2019 at 8:33 AM, Romka said:

Only scared because of the constant scaremongering from the media, retired military  (with a cold war mentality) and so called military pundits. 

I wasn't saying whether or not the fear is justified but it is there regardless. 

Edited by NickW
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On 3/15/2019 at 5:02 PM, Tomasz said:

Russia is an aggressive imperial country and it has always been, which is why it has now 17 million square kilometers and started from very small territory in XIV century. It took her more than 500 years to collect all russian lands and its very well known process in global history.

The very green colour is the fatherland of Moscow empire in XIII century= quite small one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Moscow#/media/File:Muscovy_1390_1525.png

But apart from that  Russia during history was an imperial state rather very succesfull in conquering russian core lands after lands no great power could allow rather hostile military alliance to approach its borders.

Like many great powers they learned the hard way, being Mongol vassals for 200 or so years

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On 3/14/2019 at 7:23 PM, Illurion said:

Actually,   Canada becomes less and less useful to the USA as each year passes....

As soon as the WALL on the Mexican border is finished,  and we throw a ton of invaders onto the other side of it,   we will save almost 100 billion per year that we are paying for mostly Mexican citizens......  That means that Mexico will then have to start paying for those people again........  So,  YES,  in the end,  Mexico WILL pay for the Wall....

After that,  perhaps sooner,   we will have to start    BUILDING A WALL ON OUR CANADIAN BORDER TOO.........

Too many invaders coming into the USA from Canada too....

And too many Canadians are like you,  they take the USA for granted,  and think the USA needs you.........

We don't........

And YES,  in the end,  Canada will pay for that WALL,  and will be wishing they had not allowed all the crap to happen that caused us to build it.........

 

I love Canada and Canadians but think that their current leadership is sorely lacking in common sense. I think that will change in coming elections but if it does not Canada will kill it's economy IMHO. At least it will be a far less successful country than it could be. 

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(edited)

On 3/14/2019 at 9:16 PM, shadowkin said:

You and I are of a mind. I think the major reason for Trump’s verbal attacks on Europe, especially Germany, is to force them to pull out of NATO on their own. It seems to be having some effect. Right now it’s just words but France and Germany are starting to talk of an EU army. We’ll see where that goes.

It is very hard to do it on our end with the Deep State obstructing his every move. When he mocked the idea of the US fighting a war on behalf of Macedonia the msm and Deep State howled. 

It’s absurd to think we should be obligated to die for Macedonia or whatever they’re calling themselves. No one even asked that question. The msm is especially transparent. They hate the military and portray every military action under Republicans as evil yet here they acted as though it was some great betrayal. And of course they and their children would never be the ones fighting and dying. It was just another opportunity to attack Trump.

It’s the main reason today I would advise my kids to not join the military and if there were a draft and it was to fight a war for Macedonia I’d recommend they evade the draft and I’d help them. No American life is worth anything in Macedonia.

It’s equally absurd to think we should be obligated to defend Turkey who is now our frenemy and who I believe will be more of an adversary in the future.

This is why, in this case, I do think it was premature of Trump to declare we’re leaving Syria. I think we need to set it up there so that Turkey is weakened.

But you’re right Mattis and the Deep State will always oppose our leaving anywhere whether it makes sense or not. These generals and admirals are more politicians than anything and are looking to maintain their networks and secure a cushy position at some defense contractor after retirement. They are really not working in our best interest.

 

 

Yup they milk the situation. I remember a story about a US general criticizing German workers as lazy. They protested in response. I'm sure they still received their pay while protesting too.

 

Here’s Merkel (paraphrasing) ‘Germany is to Europe what America is to the world: unloved but necessary’

This was at the time when the southern Europeans believed austerity was being forced on them after the Great Recession by northern Europeans, above all Germany. These countries are in tough spots. They can't defend themselves so they rely on us.

I think everyone shares your sentiment on peace, the big problem is no one can agree on what peace is and I have to disagree that disarming is the solution. The Romans learned long ago, “If you want peace, prepare for war”. They were fighting wars non-stop for 1500 years and not for fun.

I do agree we need fewer bases around the world. We just have to pick what’s really important to us. Defending the Macedonias of the world isn’t.

Peace is a mental and spiritual concept. Cooperation is a better term to use for nations getting along with each other. Being nice is fine, but one can try to appear nice while getting ready to stab you. Cooperation is an ongoing process with mutual benefits.

Actually, cooperation would be a better concept for realistic marriages and any other type of relationship. "Love is a many splendored thing" but requires cooperation.  

Edited by ronwagn
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