Permafrost Melting Will Cost Us $70 Trillion

[WaytoPeace + 62]

The question is not whether the effects of global warming will get worse.  They will.  The question is how much worse will they become for our children and grandchildren.  That depends upon what we do as individuals, how we respond as a society, and how we are able to work with the rest of the world to address this challenge to our planet.  Ask yourself whether you are prepared to explain to your grandchildren why you didn’t do more in light of the growing body of evidence as to the impacts they will face if we do not substantially reduce the rate at which greenhouse gases are released into the atmosphere. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 4/24/2019 at 8:11 AM, Bill the Science Nerd said:

Mostly the same way fossil fuel supporters have created false doubt in the level of scientific agreement that we are creating big problems for ourselves with global warming.

The more people speak up for the truth. The more people will listen and hopefully review the facts for themselves.

Which is humorous,  as the vast majority of actual scientists studying the earth sciences claim we do not know what is going on, but the political IPCC and their ilk scream and shout that the world is going to end.  Lets see, believe those who study it for a living or the hysterical mob... Excuse me, I'll go the OPPOSITE direction of the mob 100% of the time. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 hours ago, WaytoPeace said:

Ask yourself whether you are prepared to explain to your grandchildren why you didn’t do more in light of the growing body of evidence as to the impacts they will face if we do not substantially reduce the rate at which greenhouse gases are released into the atmosphere. 

Those of you who accept this statement as The Truth can cleanse themselves of personal embarrassment by simply declining to purchase Chinese-made goods.  China is the world's worst and most notorious polluter, and is adding some 100 coal plants to their supply inventory.  Their pollution is legendary, more in one city than from all the autos in the entire USA.  So if you want to do a personal effort in pollution abatement, don't buy their stuff.  Decreasing China factory output is the fastest and most certain path to pollution abatement.

As an added bonus, you get to support domestic fabrication industry with your consumer dollars.  Always nice. 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

2 hours ago, Wastral said:

Which is humorous,  as the vast majority of actual scientists studying the earth sciences claim we do not know what is going on, but the political IPCC and their ilk scream and shout that the world is going to end.  Lets see, believe those who study it for a living or the hysterical mob... Excuse me, I'll go the OPPOSITE direction of the mob 100% of the time. 

 

[Rodent + 1,424]

On 4/24/2019 at 8:43 AM, Bill the Science Nerd said:

We have to continue shouting because if we don’t do something about it, things will continue to get worse.

 

I can relate that whenever someone is desperate to get their point across, they tend to get figuratively (or literally as the case may be) loud. Such is human nature.   

My teenage daughter gets dramatic and and exaggerates when she wants to make a point. But that has the opposite effect.  If my drama teen (as opposed to drama queen... see what I did there?) comes home from school crying saying what a lousy day she had I might internally roll my eyes and think no biggie. If her sober-minded sister came home with the same song I would be thinking, holy cow this must be bad!  

I think the more stomping and exaggerating that people do, the less credible they appear ("oh, Jack, he always thinks the sky is falling!") 

 

 

[Rodent + 1,424]

1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

Those of you who accept this statement as The Truth can cleanse themselves of personal embarrassment by simply declining to purchase Chinese-made goods.  China is the world's worst and most notorious polluter, and is adding some 100 coal plants to their supply inventory.  Their pollution is legendary, more in one city than from all the autos in the entire USA.  So if you want to do a personal effort in pollution abatement, don't buy their stuff.  Decreasing China factory output is the fastest and most certain path to pollution abatement.

As an added bonus, you get to support domestic fabrication industry with your consumer dollars.  Always nice. 

they could also refrain from living in glass buildings I guess, and could move to California where they get the "opportunity" to pay 1percent extra on their restaurant check to offset the carbon footprint of their meal.  

And speaking of meals, they could go vegan since the rich white man's meatful diet is not only offensive, it is carbon intense. 

 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

11 hours ago, WaytoPeace said:

Ask yourself whether you are prepared to explain to your grandchildren why you didn’t do more in light of the growing body of evidence as to the impacts they will face if we do not substantially reduce the rate at which greenhouse gases are released into the atmosphere. 

I do not drive. I eat local produce. I reuse all plastic bags multiple times. I certainly don't waste water or electricity. We're working to be able to afford a switch to solar energy at some point in the future because, oddly enough, residential rooftop installations in our neck of the woods are still quite an investment. Any other suggestions?

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

7 hours ago, Rodent said:

I can relate that whenever someone is desperate to get their point across, they tend to get figuratively (or literally as the case may be) loud. Such is human nature.   

My teenage daughter gets dramatic and and exaggerates when she wants to make a point. But that has the opposite effect.  If my drama teen (as opposed to drama queen... see what I did there?) comes home from school crying saying what a lousy day she had I might internally roll my eyes and think no biggie. If her sober-minded sister came home with the same song I would be thinking, holy cow this must be bad!  

I think the more stomping and exaggerating that people do, the less credible they appear ("oh, Jack, he always thinks the sky is falling!") 

 

 

I agree. I wonder if climate change deniers - particularly on this forum - does too?

For clarity - accepting that the climate is changing is NOT the same as accepting current mitigation plans etc. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I do not drive. I eat local produce. I reuse all plastic bags multiple times. I certainly don't waste water or electricity. We're working to be able to afford a switch to solar energy at some point in the future because, oddly enough, residential rooftop installations in our neck of the woods are still quite an investment. Any other suggestions?

I would suggest trying to inspire more people to do as you; rather than just ridicule climate change crusaders. 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

Any practical tips on this inspiring? Give people unwanted advice? I ridicule the people you call crusaders because I deeply doubt what they do can make anyone rethink the way they are living. The reason I doubt it is because, as Rodent aptly pointed out, human nature is human nature. So unless you can offer me any actual advice on how to "inspire" I'll stay with the ridicule. Sometimes it makes people think. Most often it doesn't.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

7 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Any practical tips on this inspiring? Give people unwanted advice? I ridicule the people you call crusaders because I deeply doubt what they do can make anyone rethink the way they are living. The reason I doubt it is because, as Rodent aptly pointed out, human nature is human nature. So unless you can offer me any actual advice on how to "inspire" I'll stay with the ridicule. Sometimes it makes people think. Most often it doesn't.

The people I meant needed to be inspired was the silent majority. Not the crusaders. The point being that if there is some sort of modest "progress" then that action would do more to shut up crusaders than ridicule. This applies to many aspects of life and I happily concede that it is a LONG process - just look at my success in the discussions on this forum... 

Anyways, this discussion reminds me a little of the story of the star-fish. And I firmly believe that a lot of people doing a little will make a difference. 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

43 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

Any practical tips on this inspiring? Give people unwanted advice? I ridicule the people you call crusaders because I deeply doubt what they do can make anyone rethink the way they are living. The reason I doubt it is because, as Rodent aptly pointed out, human nature is human nature. So unless you can offer me any actual advice on how to "inspire" I'll stay with the ridicule. Sometimes it makes people think. Most often it doesn't.

Or confused.  Sometimes the mental gymnastics of artificially tying together unrelated concepts can end up a confusing mess. 

Like this one, attempting to explain how Global Warming affects women more than men:

How extreme weather increases inequality

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

31 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

And I firmly believe that a lot of people doing a little will make a difference. 

I share this belief. You haven't told me how to inspire others to get off their cars, for example. I did not think you meant the crusaders. I know who you meant. I have tried discussing the topic of transportation -- which is particularly important to me -- with people from my neighbourhood on Facebook. Politely. With no ridicule. You would probably be amazed to learn they all simply NEED to use their cars and showing them the schedule of the public transport bus lines nearby and noting the fact there is now a pretty extensive underground network in the city has not yet inspired anyone to change. This is because people do not want to change. They do not want to be told they are wrong, however delicately. In fact, I don't think inspiration works,a t least not the way I understand it. Fines work, we just need governments to impose them and collect. if you have another concept of inspiration, I'd love to hear it.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

8 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I share this belief. You haven't told me how to inspire others to get off their cars, for example. I did not think you meant the crusaders. I know who you meant. I have tried discussing the topic of transportation -- which is particularly important to me -- with people from my neighbourhood on Facebook. Politely. With no ridicule. You would probably be amazed to learn they all simply NEED to use their cars and showing them the schedule of the public transport bus lines nearby and noting the fact there is now a pretty extensive underground network in the city has not yet inspired anyone to change. This is because people do not want to change. They do not want to be told they are wrong, however delicately. In fact, I don't think inspiration works,a t least not the way I understand it. Fines work, we just need governments to impose them and collect. if you have another concept of inspiration, I'd love to hear it.

Cars are probably one of the more difficult things to make people give up. But one of the things that I personally have found is that the internet is not the best medium to reach people. Personal interaction tends to work better. And with patience it will have an exponential effect at some point. 

A few examples from my life: 

1) twice a year we make the kids participate in a "clean your community event". We started 2 years ago. This year we had a group 11 families that we know got there through mouth-to-mouth (which actually started with my mother telling me). the events rounds off with a community pic-nic. Inexpensive; the kids have fun and learn something (now my kids actually collect trash and put it in nearby bins - on their own). 

2) Several times a year we go to "events" in nature. Similar setup - we go a larger and larger group of friends and a lot kids / families from the same kinder garden. I have noticed that more and more people tend to buy local produce once their eyes are opened to the opportunities. 

Common denominator : A good experience makes people spread a positive word. 

I know above are easy examples, but I believe the same principles can be applied... 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

So, basically it comes down to setting a good example. I would agree this tends to work a lot better than gluing yourself to buildings even though it lacks the spectacular factor as most things that work. I lack the contacts to recreate the second of your tips but we do the first one. Unfortunately, with different results because people just stop caring about anything at a certain point.

I will, however, soon have the opportunity to test my inspirational (and explanational) skills outside the family soon when I start my voluntary gig at the zoo, explaining to people why they should not feed the meerkats and bears with bread sticks. I will report on results.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

16 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I will, however, soon have the opportunity to test my inspirational (and explanational) skills outside the family soon when I start my voluntary gig at the zoo, explaining to people why they should not feed the meerkats and bears with bread sticks. I will report on results.

I look forward to the report. Just remember - it might seem small to you, but it makes a big difference for those meerkats and bears...

 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

20 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

So, basically it comes down to setting a good example. I would agree this tends to work a lot better than gluing yourself to buildings even though it lacks the spectacular factor as most things that work. I lack the contacts to recreate the second of your tips but we do the first one. Unfortunately, with different results because people just stop caring about anything at a certain point.

On a more serious note - some things may require political action. I am not naive. My point is just that it is also in human nature to try om emulate good examples. People will generally follow a leader that runs 20 metres ahead, but not one that they cannot see. Start small. 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

31 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I look forward to the report. Just remember - it might seem small to you, but it makes a big difference for those meerkats and bears...

 

Rasmus, if it seemed small to me, in the sense of insignificant, I wouldn't be doing it. I'm doing it because these animals' wellbeing matters. making people think before they do something stupid matters as well.

28 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

My point is just that it is also in human nature to try om emulate good examples.

I wish I could agree in full but I can't. People would emulate good examples if it didn't cost them a thing. It usually does cost something.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

13 minutes ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I wish I could agree in full but I can't. People would emulate good examples if it didn't cost them a thing. It usually does cost something.

I tend to believe that people are willing to pay something. But, yes, there is a limit. 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

This willingness varies in different regions of the world, believe me. it's all a question of habit in the end. If you don't have the habit, you have to yet develop it. With the help of the authorities.

[Rodent + 1,424]

3 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I agree. I wonder if climate change deniers - particularly on this forum - does too?

 

human nature is human nature.

[Rodent + 1,424]

The problem with all this theory about how to reach people is that there is a significant amount of condescension involved.  Strongarming, shaming, guilting, etc.  The biggest barrier is likely the message of minimizing as @Marina Schwarzpointed out with the driving example. The message of "you shouldn't drive" is enshrouded with an unspoken message that is received loud and clear: 1) you're wrong, 2) you don't need to do that. 3) You're too stupid to understand why you shouldn't 4) what a fool you are for believing the denial message. 

The result is the immediate reaction of "I'm not foolish! and "you don't understand me or my circumstances!"

That never ends well. 

Nothing wrong with making positive changes. Unfortunately the sober-minded messages are often lost in all the glue-type nonsense. 

Separate the climate change hoo-ha from doing things good for the environment and you might have better luck. Also, as with anything, pointing out someone's apparent stupidity is never a good opener.

re: feeding the animals bad food here results in getting into major trouble, as it should be. 

 

[Marina Schwarz + 1,576]

The lady I spoke to last week said the idea of fines has been discussed... and shelved because municipal elections are coming and the zoo is municipal property. Can't fine your voters, apparently. 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 hour ago, Rodent said:

The problem with all this theory about how to reach people is that there is a significant amount of condescension involved.  Strongarming, shaming, guilting, etc.  The biggest barrier is likely the message of minimizing as @Marina Schwarzpointed out with the driving example. The message of "you shouldn't drive" is enshrouded with an unspoken message that is received loud and clear: 1) you're wrong, 2) you don't need to do that. 3) You're too stupid to understand why you shouldn't 4) what a fool you are for believing the denial message. 

The result is the immediate reaction of "I'm not foolish! and "you don't understand me or my circumstances!"

That never ends well. 

Nothing wrong with making positive changes. Unfortunately the sober-minded messages are often lost in all the glue-type nonsense. 

Separate the climate change hoo-ha from doing things good for the environment and you might have better luck. Also, as with anything, pointing out someone's apparent stupidity is never a good opener.

re: feeding the animals bad food here results in getting into major trouble, as it should be. 

 

The Basics of Effective Red Pilling

 

• Know your biggest competitors

• Apathy (some people genuinely don’t give a sh*t about politics or even good vs. evil)

• Lazy Thinking (Nietzsche was right when he said that "most people go through life trying to avoid any real thoughts")

• Short Attention Spans (Learn to ask great opening questions that ENGAGE the other person. For example: "I've been learning of late some rather interesting, but confusing, things about XYZ. Would you be kind enough to have a look at this with me and give me your perspective?")

...

Plant a Seed and Watch it Grow

People don't need preaching to. That's the problem. Those who know a lot tend to tell it all, overwhelming. Just plant a seed and back away. Do this by asking a question that gets them thinking.

Go do something else, and give them a chance to process it and work it out in their mind.

Ask a different question about the topic (the seed you planted) and see how they answer.

This waters the seed so it grows downward into subconscious and upward towards the conscious.

Go away and do other things.

Plant the seed and come back to it later, but lead them, coax them, gently gently, softly softly.

Some people take a long time to process things. E.g. my family members are just now getting something I said years ago (they forgot that it was me who brought it up). They say, “Hey did you know about X?”

I just smile and nod.

It works.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

2 hours ago, Marina Schwarz said:

This willingness varies in different regions of the world, believe me. it's all a question of habit in the end. If you don't have the habit, you have to yet develop it. With the help of the authorities.

This is a fine line to walk... freedom crusaders on this forum might disagree with authorities modifying peoples behaviour...