The Inconvenient Truth Of Electric Cars

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Electric Car Major Headache: Waiting Hours for Charging Bay then Hrs to Charge

A trip from LA to Las Vegas and back takes 8 hours by a gas-powered car but 13 hours by an electric vehicle.

The electric vehicle grand vision may flounder on something most drivers take for granted: a quick pit stop.

The inconvenient truth of electric vehicles is they are terribly inconvenient to own and operate. Most cars need a charge after 200 to 250 miles traveled.

Charging them requires finding a charging station, and then an open bay.

The New York Times reports L.A. to Vegas and Back by Electric Car: 8 Hours Driving; 5 More Plugged In.

...

[Meredith Poor + 895]

53 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Electric Car Major Headache: Waiting Hours for Charging Bay then Hrs to Charge

A trip from LA to Las Vegas and back takes 8 hours by a gas-powered car but 13 hours by an electric vehicle.

The electric vehicle grand vision may flounder on something most drivers take for granted: a quick pit stop.

The inconvenient truth of electric vehicles is they are terribly inconvenient to own and operate. Most cars need a charge after 200 to 250 miles traveled.

Charging them requires finding a charging station, and then an open bay.

The New York Times reports L.A. to Vegas and Back by Electric Car: 8 Hours Driving; 5 More Plugged In.

...

Compare this to trying to drive from LA to Yellowstone National Park in 1925. The issue at that point wasn't just things like gasoline, but also tires and oil. Anyone attempting it had to be capable of repairing their car and extracting it from mud. Trips like this at the time were usually done in convoys, and were considered an adventure by all involved.

The 'US Highway System' was created in 1926. In many parts of the country roads weren't worth much before about 1935. Long distances were typically traveled by railroad.

The world is full of transient nuisances.

[J.mo + 165]

I know most of us here make our living In some.shape or form that is related to the petroleum industry. But to to think things will not be drastically different in 15 years, is just plain naive. Just because you want to bury your head in the sand and turn a blind eye, does not mean it will not happen. 

Some people probably thought department stores and grocery clerks couldn't be replaced. Some thought the internet would never be relevant, and we would not carry computers in our pockets each and everyday.  Look at the last 25 years alone, process the calculation of exponential development of technology. re assess your narrative. If you still dont change your mind, your name shall be kodak from now on 

Edited June 24, 2019 by J.mo

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

True, but generally technological advances make life easier and were not the result of a select group of people shoving some innovation down your throat!

In circa 1925, the unseen benefit of people needing to be able to repair their  vehicle and get it out of the mud was a 'can do' attitude, 'shade tree' mechanics in every town and many people developing useful mechanical, electrical and hydraulic skills.

Who is going to know how to repair an EV when it breaks down, and they will, in the middle of nowhere?

The transition to EV's will not be all sunshine and roses.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

6 hours ago, J.mo said:

Some people probably thought department stores and grocery clerks couldn't be replaced.

Speaking directly to "grocery clerks" and the advent of self-checkout and self-checkout machines at big-box stores, the reason so much very expensive automation is installed instead of simply hiring more clerks at modest pay is perfectly straightforward.  The store managers cannot find the people to staff clerk positions, as the candidates for those jobs all fail the drug test. 

America has become a nation of dopers.  In some States roughly 12% of the adult population consists of drug addicts. You go into a town like Huntington, West Virginia  (on the Upper Ohio River) where the steel mills have all closed, and all you find is a population of addicts.  These folks are unfortunately un-hireable, simply because, in today's health-care setup, they have to steal in order to raise the money to buy their narcotics.  The stealing takes the form of employee theft (what the stores call "inventory shrinkage"),  caused both by outsiders and by store personnel.  Retailers work with a minimum shrinkage of 1%, and where drug addicts are rampant, it goes to 2%. It is one of the major causes of retail shops closing, particularly the smaller ones along Main Street, leading to boarded-up storefronts, the classic sign of a decaying town. 

Nothing changes until the treatment of addicts changes, and (of course) the way society deals with drug salesmen.  You can go build all the Walls you want, but there is so much money involved, just go buy yourself a Border Guard to wave your truck through and another 80,000-lb load of narcotics breezes through the border post.  Who is Washington kidding? 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

You can go build all the Walls you want, but there is so much money involved, just go buy yourself a Border Guard to wave your truck through and another 80,000-lb load of narcotics breezes through the border post.  Who is Washington kidding? 

The voting public.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

11 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

Long distances were typically traveled by railroad.

And that was, at that time, a very, very civilized way to travel.  

As to the classic mud road, entrepreneurs would build what were known as "plank roads" and install a long wood pole at each end, to charge a toll or fee for using the road.  From that came the term "toll road."   Today there is a secondary road that runs from the Hudson River out to Paterson, New Jersey, called the "Patterson Plank Road."  It was originally built as a long series of planks, nailed down onto timbers, and you drove out to Patterson on those planks.  Hence the name.  (The locals have no clue, all that being long forgotten.) 

In one of my little projects I have designed a cheap way to convert a mud road  (over 50% of America's roads are not paved) into a concrete planked road, where the "planks" are spaced to allow the car or truck to ride along, the other areas being grass, to create a permeable surface.  This design has a number of technical advantages, and also the big advantage of being a cheap replacement for an asphalt road. It would look like this:

 

[Robber 0]

If I am going to read stuff like this I have to go and buy a pair of boots with higher tops!

[James Regan + 1,776]

This article kind of shoots itself in the foot, the grid whichever way you look at it for now depends on those sneaky fossil fuels.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/06/evs-dont-run-electricity-coal-power-plants/

[Steve Pipkin + 7]

Summary of NYT article:

"EVs dont have the battery density nor charging speed to make a journey over 200 miles practical - and good luck finding an open charging station."

Edited June 24, 2019 by Steve Pipkin
added information

[pfarley@bigpond.net.au + 42]

21 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Electric Car Major Headache: Waiting Hours for Charging Bay then Hrs to Charge

A trip from LA to Las Vegas and back takes 8 hours by a gas-powered car but 13 hours by an electric vehicle.

The electric vehicle grand vision may flounder on something most drivers take for granted: a quick pit stop.

The inconvenient truth of electric vehicles is they are terribly inconvenient to own and operate. Most cars need a charge after 200 to 250 miles traveled.

Charging them requires finding a charging station, and then an open bay.

The New York Times reports L.A. to Vegas and Back by Electric Car: 8 Hours Driving; 5 More Plugged In.

...

1. Why would you not plug your car in overnight in Las Vegas to start the return journey fully charged.

2. Why would you not visit 100-150 kW chargers if you were in a hurry.

3. If you really do want to drive long distances without doing either of these things buy a Tesla Model 3 (total cost of ownership in high mileage situations less than a Toyota Corolla) and do the trip with one 20 minute stop each way

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

It looks to me like they deliberately chose the wrong car for the trip.

A Tesla can cake the same trip with no more than an hour added if that.

BEVs are advancing quickly, but cheaper ones like the Bolt are still just meant to be daily drivers, not road trip cars.

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

31 minutes ago, Steve Pipkin said:

Summary of NYT article:

"EVs dont have the battery density nor charging speed to make a journey over 200 miles practical - and good luck finding an open charging station."

Except some do.

[NickW + 2,714]

4 minutes ago, Bill the Science Nerd said:

Except some do.

You must stop introducing facts into these debates. 

[NickW + 2,714]

15 minutes ago, pfarley@bigpond.net.au said:

1. Why would you not plug your car in overnight in Las Vegas to start the return journey fully charged.

2. Why would you not visit 100-150 kW chargers if you were in a hurry.

3. If you really do want to drive long distances without doing either of these things buy a Tesla Model 3 (total cost of ownership in high mileage situations less than a Toyota Corolla) and do the trip with one 20 minute stop each way

The 60 Kwh Nissan Leaf has a range of about 240 miles (imperial) 

Anyone doing a LA to LV journey is going to want (should) to take a couple of stops on route which is the opportunity to plug into a fast charger while grabbing a coffee and stretching the legs. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by NickW

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

26 minutes ago, NickW said:

You must stop introducing facts into these debates. 

Sure. 

Nissan Leaf E Plus - range 220 miles charge rate 100 kW

Jaguar I-Pace - range 234 miles charge rate 100 kW

Chevy Bolt - range 238 miles, charge rate 50 kW

Audi Etron - range 248 miles, charge rate 155 kW

Hyundai Kona Electric- range 258 miles, charge rate 75 kW

Tesla Model X 100D - range 325 miles, charge rate 150 kW

Tesla Model 3 LR - 310 miles, charge rate 250 kW

Tesla Model S 100D - 370 miles, charge rate 150 kW

 

These are all BEVs that can do a 200+ mile trip easily.

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

1 hour ago, Steve Pipkin said:

Summary of NYT article:

"EVs dont have the battery density nor charging speed to make a journey over 200 miles practical - and good luck finding an open charging station."

Nissan Leaf E Plus - range 220 miles charge rate 100 kW

 Jaguar I-Pace - range 234 miles charge rate 100 kW

Chevy Bolt - range 238 miles, charge rate 50 kW

Audi Etron - range 248 miles, charge rate 155 kW

 Hyundai Kona Electric- range 258 miles, charge rate 75 kW

Tesla Model X 100D - range 325 miles, charge rate 150 kW

Tesla Model 3 LR - 310 miles, charge rate 250 kW

Tesla Model S 100D - 370 miles, charge rate 150 kW

 

These are all BEVs that can do a 200+ mile trip easily.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, NickW said:

You must stop introducing facts into these debates. 

Sorry, Nick, those are not "facts" being introduced, those are personal prejudices, that do not take into account the real-world aspect of capital financing for the individual.  If you want to treat yourself to a Bolt, you can go to Chevy and get them to write you a Financing Contract.  Go to Tesla as Mr. Average American and you cannot get paper written, as Mr. Tesla has no capital to set aside for writing paper.  Lease it?  Sure, if a leasing company is prepared to take the credit ap. of Mr. Average American, not Mr. Average Stockbroker.  If you cannot finance it, you cannot acquire it.  So you get a Bolt - or stick with that gasoline-engined Ford. 

When I see a financing entity prepared to write paper on any and all buyers, then I can start to assign credibility to the idea that people can treat themselves to a Tesla, Jaguar, or Audi.  Those machines are way too pricey for the credit of Mr. Average. 

Meanwhile, that 20-year-old Hyundai is more the speed of Mr. Average.  So, he buys some gasoline for his road trip.  Way of the world.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Jan van Eck

[WCS + 13]

So how is the mileage performance after 6 years (with the AC or heater on full?)

Edited June 25, 2019 by WCS

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

4 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Sorry, Nick, those are not "facts" being introduced, those are personal prejudices, that do not take into account the real-world aspect of capital financing for the individual.  If you want to treat yourself to a Bolt, you can go to Chevy and get them to write you a Financing Contract.  Go to Tesla as Mr. Average American and you cannot get paper written, as Mr. Tesla has no capital to set aside for writing paper.  Lease it?  Sure, if a leasing company is prepared to take the credit ap. of Mr. Average American, not Mr. Average Stockbroker.  If you cannot finance it, you cannot acquire it.  So you get a Bolt - or stick with that gasoline-engined Ford. 

When I see a financing entity prepared to write paper on any and all buyers, then I can start to assign credibility to the idea that people can treat themselves to a Tesla, Jaguar, or Audi.  Those machines are way too pricey for the credit of Mr. Average. 

Meanwhile, that 20-year-old Hyundai is more the speed of Mr. Average.  So, he buys some gasoline for his road trip.  Way of the world.

None of that has any relevance to anything in the article or this discussion.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 hours ago, pfarley@bigpond.net.au said:

1. Why would you not plug your car in overnight in Las Vegas to start the return journey fully charged.

2. Why would you not visit 100-150 kW chargers if you were in a hurry.

3. If you really do want to drive long distances without doing either of these things buy a Tesla Model 3 (total cost of ownership in high mileage situations less than a Toyota Corolla) and do the trip with one 20 minute stop each way

First, there are folks that make a run to Vegas as a long day, just for gambling, do not stay over in a hotel (costs money), and roll back at the end of the tour.  So there is no "overnight plug-in."

Second, you assume that you can seek out and find those high-current chargers, that they are free, and that you are willing to spend your gambling-table time sitting around waiting for that car to re-charge. 

Third, those day gamblers do not spend their cash on some Tesla, instead they spend it at the blackjack table.  There goes your idea of a Tesla.  Ain't gonna happen. 

(The smarter gamblers take a tour bus out and back, so they can sleep after losing their shirt, but that is yet another story....)

Edited June 25, 2019 by Jan van Eck

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 minutes ago, Bill the Science Nerd said:

None of that has any relevance to anything in the article or this discussion.

Sure it does, Bill.  If you cannot pay for it, then it might as well not exist.

You could argue that you can make that trip by helicopter.  Nobody has the money for a personal helicopter, unless you are Jamie Diamond.  But guess what, you don't have Jamie's wallet, so you travel by antique Hyundai.  End of story. 

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

8 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Sure it does, Bill.  If you cannot pay for it, then it might as well not exist.

You could argue that you can make that trip by helicopter.  Nobody has the money for a personal helicopter, unless you are Jamie Diamond.  But guess what, you don't have Jamie's wallet, so you travel by antique Hyundai.  End of story. 

Well, the 150k people who bought a Tesla in the US last year disagreed with you.

And it is looking like 250,000 more people in the US will disagree with you this year.

 

I am pretty sure that is more than the number of helicopters sold.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 6/24/2019 at 8:39 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

Electric Car Major Headache: Waiting Hours for Charging Bay then Hrs to Charge

A trip from LA to Las Vegas and back takes 8 hours by a gas-powered car but 13 hours by an electric vehicle.

The electric vehicle grand vision may flounder on something most drivers take for granted: a quick pit stop.

The inconvenient truth of electric vehicles is they are terribly inconvenient to own and operate. Most cars need a charge after 200 to 250 miles traveled.

Charging them requires finding a charging station, and then an open bay.

The New York Times reports L.A. to Vegas and Back by Electric Car: 8 Hours Driving; 5 More Plugged In.

...

And the push to force everyone into EV ownership will undoubtedly place a further burden on the charging station infrastructure (which does not seem to be keeping pace with the expected landslide of EV's on the road), which will result in further congestion and waiting times for an available slot before you even begin charging.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

6 hours ago, Bill the Science Nerd said:

Well, the 150k people who bought a Tesla in the US last year disagreed with you.

And it is looking like 250,000 more people in the US will disagree with you this year.

 

I am pretty sure that is more than the number of helicopters sold.

 Bill, give it a rest. Four out of five cars sold in the USA are used cars.  Those folks do not buy "new" because they don't have either the money or the credit to buy anything new.  So they buy used.  Those used cars have gasoline engines. 

In 2018, there were 58 million automobiles sold in the USA.  your vaunted 150,000 electric Tesla machines amounts to this tiny little pebble in that mountain.  You are just obsessed with this idea of electric autos.  And that's fine; you go treat yourself to your toy, that is the nice thing about a capitalistic society with free-market consumer choice as its foundation.  You put down your cash and you go collect your dream machine.  The problem with all that for the rest of society is that those folks are poor, do not have the cash, and do not have the credit, to go indulge in these fancy machines.  So they buy some used gasoline-engine car instead. 

And neither you nor Elon have any solution for that.  So, give it a rest.