The Inconvenient Truth Of Electric Cars

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

The coating sales pitch is a bold claim with nothing backing it up.  No evidence of effectiveness against important pathogens (MSRA, influenza) , no safety assessment or FDA approval.

How do you know?  You know nothing about it. I have deliberately hidden the substance of the coating.  Thus by definition you know nothing about it. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

18 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

State entities are in your business all day long.  What do you think incorporation fees and franchise tax are, freebies?

I just realized that my above sentence was correct. What I meant to say was that states competing with private businesses is a form of wealth distribution. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I just realized that my above sentence was correct. What I meant to say was that states competing with private businesses is a form of wealth distribution. 

I knew perfectly well what you meant.  I am just jerking your chain, my idea of amusement on an early morning.  But to be serious, there is zero need for the State to be "in competition."  The peculiar services the State could sell are not amenable to being supplied by private enterprise.  For example, the State could sell truck licence plates and registrations, for a nice profit.  That is not something that the private sector could do - at least, they are not supposed to.  IN New York City, hey they probably do anyway, but that's New York. 

[Outlaw Jackie + 78]

I'm an old-school oil and gas man, and I think EV may have its niche for short commutes. The reality of my situation is that pulling a trailer, loaded with 2 horses and 10 bird dogs would NEVER be done by an EV. Even for short commutes, the physics just don't work. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

24 minutes ago, Outlaw Jackie said:

I'm an old-school oil and gas man, and I think EV may have its niche for short commutes. The reality of my situation is that pulling a trailer, loaded with 2 horses and 10 bird dogs would NEVER be done by an EV. Even for short commutes, the physics just don't work. 

Well, assuredly not by some off-the-shelf model.  However - "could" an EV be built that could pull that load?  And the answer is YES, but of course.  Build yourself a big pick-up truck, say a dually, toss a hefty traction motor of say 110 hp. on each wheel, and confiscate that entire 8-foot bed for one gigantic battery pack that would allow for a huge current draw, and then you will have every success.  

The physics will work, but only if you have lots and lots of battery kwh available.  Admittedly, not very practical.....

Edited June 28, 2019 by Jan van Eck

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

10 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

How do you know?  You know nothing about it. I have deliberately hidden the substance of the coating.  Thus by definition you know nothing about it. 

That is true; I just meant the letter would have been more effective if there was a bit more substance than a big claim.  You could demonstrate effectiveness without disclosing the formula.

If it works, lasts for a long time, and doesn't leave toxic resides on peoples fingers it would be a very exciting product.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

27 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

If it works, lasts for a long time, and doesn't leave toxic resides on peoples fingers it would be a very exciting product.

In a very slightly different formulation, it has a five hundred year history of very successful use.  It was apparently first developed by the Spanish, although they likely pirated it from earlier discoverers. Although toxic to pathogens, it has no impact to people in ordinary handling in the solid state.  You can run your fingers over that coating and then go lick your fingers all day long and it is quite inert to you. Yet any deposit of pathogens on the surface and they will die.  Great stuff, actually.

At this point those hospital directors and managers just put the place into the bankruptcy court. While that acts as a temporary shield from creditors, it will do nothing for the survival, even in the next year.  The failure of the managers to grasp that they have to develop new sources of revenue will doom them.  Now, I grant you that (for example) the management could open up a special wing to do say late-term abortions,and market that to people living in States where that is now banned, and thus pick up surgical fees, but that strikes me as a bit unseemly.  Other than that, I don't see how the place could possibly survive, in anything other than some outlier post for a larger hospital, such as the one at Dartmouth-Hanover in New Hampshire.  Yet, why would D-H want to saddle itself with the burdens of a bankrupt medical facility that burns $500,000 a month? There is no logic there.  So, I predict it folds.  And that is what happens when management has no initiative and no imagination. Oh, well.

[conjureup + 3]

On 6/24/2019 at 6:46 PM, Jan van Eck said:

Meanwhile, that 20-year-old Hyundai is more the speed of Mr. Average.

Until recently I was driving my 15 year old paid-off BMW 330ci (bought used, and kept for 10 years). I am an Albertan, who until recently was doing alright in a province which thrived on the petroleum industry. When our PM adopted policies that devastated the province, hundreds of thousands of us suddenly fell onto hard times. Where I might once had been able to afford an EV (if I'd decided to purchase one), it is now out of reach. I have only purchased one car new, 25 years ago, and that was priced at $25k. Not that I couldn't have afforded to in the decades since, but I truly do not understand why anyone would. They're just getting more expensive and looking at Tesla's quality of service record, the only way I ever would buy one new is if I won the lottery.

What further complicates the issue is, many of us – including myself – had to sell our homes. Now in an apartment with street parking I am glad that I did not buy an EV – there is no place to plug it in. An EV is even less flexible should one find themselves in the terrible position of having to live in their car. Even had I owned an EV and chose to sell it for a gas-powered one, the buying public is significantly smaller.

My point is that, at this technological moment, even if an affordable EV meets all of one's possible driving needs, it is also only a rational option when one's current and secured future situation allows (garage / private electrified parking). I've lived long enough to experience how quickly things can go sideways.

Edited June 28, 2019 by conjureup

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

13 minutes ago, conjureup said:

What further complicates the issue is, many of us – including myself – had to sell our homes.

I really feel your pain.  I am so sorry for what you have had to (and are continuing to) go through.  And it is all so unnecessary.  With a committed two levels of government, that Alberta oil could, and should, be a runaway barnstorming success. 

It is astonishing how Ottawa mandarins and Ontario politicians have sacrificed Alberta on some fantasy about electrification.  Just astonishing. 

[conjureup + 3]

10 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

It is astonishing how Ottawa mandarins and Ontario politicians have sacrificed Alberta on some fantasy about electrification.  Just astonishing.

Thank you. Being out of work, however, I have a load of time to devote to doing what I can to knock the Liberal machine off its high horse.

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

4 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Well, assuredly not by some off-the-shelf model.  However - "could" an EV be built that could pull that load?  And the answer is YES, but of course.  Build yourself a big pick-up truck, say a dually, toss a hefty traction motor of say 110 hp. on each wheel, and confiscate that entire 8-foot bed for one gigantic battery pack that would allow for a huge current draw, and then you will have every success.  

The physics will work, but only if you have lots and lots of battery kwh available.  Admittedly, not very practical.....

And pretty darn costly too.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

18 minutes ago, conjureup said:

Thank you. Being out of work, however, I have a load of time to devote to doing what I can to knock the Liberal machine off its high horse.

Ouch!  I am so sorry to hear that.  Seeing talent sitting idle pains me.  And Alberta is expensive enough; that has got to hurt.  Well, let's work for better days!

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

18 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

And pretty darn costly too.

haven't you heard?   "Prices are coming down!"

[hld + 1]

All for electric cars, but what the 100 million or more that live in condos or apartments that are not wired to provide overnight charging (and would cost a fortune to rewire). Step one is to change building codes for all new homes or apartments to include charging capability. In the meantime, hybrids are the best alternative.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

23 hours ago, conjureup said:

Thank you. Being out of work, however, I have a load of time to devote to doing what I can to knock the Liberal machine off its high horse.

The Liberals approved, and paid for, your pipeline.  Cons did squat expect screw up the NEB.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

23 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Ouch!  I am so sorry to hear that.  Seeing talent sitting idle pains me.  And Alberta is expensive enough; that has got to hurt.  Well, let's work for better days!

In Alberta a lot of that "talent" are guys who went straight from high school to very high paying jobs, bought a huge truck, a quad, and a snowmobile (a.k.a wasted it).  Now they expect $100,000+/year without any real education.

The guys I know who have real tickets (power engineer, welders, electricians) still find good work.

Don't mind me... I'm just bitter that I made much less money with far more education, but at least it was stable and I was good with my money.  #RecessionProof

Edited June 29, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 6/28/2019 at 4:52 PM, conjureup said:

 

What further complicates the issue is, many of us – including myself – had to sell our homes. Now in an apartment with street parking I am glad that I did not buy an EV – there is no place to plug it in. An EV is even less flexible should one find themselves in the terrible position of having to live in their car. Even had I owned an EV and chose to sell it for a gas-powered one, the buying public is significantly smaller.

 

Alberta is way behind on EV charging stations (no surprise in Oil country).  In BC there are charging stations everywhere (street parking, highway rest areas, hotels) - and the best part is BC hydro gives the electricity away for free (no charge to use the stations).

Living in your car in say, Squamish would be Ok - free "gas" in a beautiful place.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

1 hour ago, hld said:

All for electric cars, but what the 100 million or more that live in condos or apartments that are not wired to provide overnight charging (and would cost a fortune to rewire). Step one is to change building codes for all new homes or apartments to include charging capability. In the meantime, hybrids are the best alternative.

If businesses are smart, they will see this as a business opportunity.

The longer people stay in store, the more they buy, regardless of why they are there.

Put a 50 kW DC charger at grocery stores and people will loiter to get a full charge and end up with more in their cart because of it. Same applies to malls and big box stores.

And people with electric cars tend to have more money than average.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Bill the Science Nerd

[James Regan + 1,776]

On 6/24/2019 at 7:16 PM, Bill the Science Nerd said:

It looks to me like they deliberately chose the wrong car for the trip.

A Tesla can cake the same trip with no more than an hour added if that.

BEVs are advancing quickly, but cheaper ones like the Bolt are still just meant to be daily drivers, not road trip cars.

Not good if you have to choose a car for any specific journey, far too many holes in the EV story, long time off this tech being viable 

Edited June 30, 2019 by James Regan

[Bill the Science Nerd + 73]

2 hours ago, James Regan said:

Not good if you have to choose a car for any specific journey, far too many holes in the EV story, long time off this tech being viable 

There are plenty of ICEV that no one would chose for that trip. 

Reality is this tech is viable now, especially for those most concerned about total cost of ownership. The only drawbacks of higher sticker price and possibly higher insurance are offset by much lower operating costs.

This is the kind of thing fleet managers are starting to get onboard with in a big way.

[Ron McKinney 0]

I see Ford laid off 20K in Europe and has declared their future to be electric.  Looks like most of the Germans are going the same way. I am seeing VW EV commercials now.  Since no manufacturer has advertised their EV's at all, should be interesting to see the effect of such advertising.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 6/27/2019 at 3:26 PM, D Coyne said:

NickW,

Not really half speed. 120V times 15 amps is 1.8 kW, 240 V times 30 amps is 7.2 KW. 7.2/1.8=4, so it's a one quarter rate charger.

So if one has a 75 kWhr battery as in a Model 3 and you need to charge from 20% to 90 % (typically not good for the battery to charge to 100%) or 52.5 kWhr would need 7.3 hours on the 240 V/30 A (level 2) circuit and 29.2 hours on the 120 V/15 A (level 1) circuit.  In short, the level 1 charger does not work well for a longer range EV, though it might be ok for a short commute.

Great - so even less barriers to owning an EV in the USA. 

I was under the misunderstanding that 120V / 15 amp was the standard. Probably a hang up from my Aramco days where the houses in Dhahran were wired in 120V unless you got an electrician to have a fiddle with the electrics. 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 6/28/2019 at 7:44 PM, Outlaw Jackie said:

I'm an old-school oil and gas man, and I think EV may have its niche for short commutes. The reality of my situation is that pulling a trailer, loaded with 2 horses and 10 bird dogs would NEVER be done by an EV. Even for short commutes, the physics just don't work. 

Never say Never

If they develop a durable aluminium - air battery we could we looking at energy densities in batteries of 1.5kwh - 2.0 kwh / Kg. If that happens you can have your trailer and horse box towed by an EV with similar ranges of a conventional ICE. 

In the above scenario the physics works quite nicely. 

[NickW + 2,714]

On 6/27/2019 at 4:21 AM, Ward Smith said:

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/range-charging.html?pth=2

Actual mileage is 225 claimed. My brother has one. It has Never achieved even that. 

The Euro test position is 239 miles . Maybe the USA test criteria is different - perhaps for carrying lardy-arsed Americans from A to B 😄

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf.html

Much like the case for ICE cars the fuel economy is based on a  set criteria test which they rarely achieve in real life driving conditions. 

[conjureup + 3]

On 6/29/2019 at 5:18 PM, Enthalpic said:

In Alberta a lot of that "talent" are guys who went straight from high school to very high paying jobs, bought a huge truck, a quad, and a snowmobile (a.k.a wasted it).  Now they expect $100,000+/year without any real education.

The guys I know who have real tickets (power engineer, welders, electricians) still find good work.

I saw your earlier comment regarding the pipeline, and although I have an argument to make I really do not have the energy to make it again, as I've had to in the past few months, over and over, ad nauseam.

So instead, I will respond to your comment on education level. According to Stats Canada, Alberta has the fourth highest level of education attainment. From the last full census in 2016, 28.2% of Alberta's population holds a post-secondary degree – bit.ly/2KRGrd3 – or see snapshot below.

Of course, I could tell you about the "professionals with real tickets" of whom I am personally acquainted who have had to go to the US to get work, because that is where the projects went. Not a lot of the geologists, nor the chemical or petroleum engineers that I know, can find a lot of work outside of the oil and gas industry.

Alternatively, you could ask the employees of PCL Construction, based out of Edmonton. Like SNC-Lavalin, it also has an international presence, had Canadian revenues over $8 billion, and was founded in Saskatchewan at the turn of the century, in 1906. It was the largest contracting organization in Canada, is 7th largest in the US, and named Top Green Contractor by Engineering News‐Record (ENR). In the US, they are ranked far‐and‐away above SNC (ranked 106th, while PCL is ranked 7th), and was twice named to the Forbes' Top Employer List. Unlike those SNC-Lavalin 'jobs' (which Trudeau bent over backwards for), the work isn't going anywhere. Unfortunately for PCL, those jobs vanished and they had to lay off 90% of their workforce, comprised of... engineers, welders, and electricians. Also unlike SNC-Lavalin, PCL offers company ownership to employees and is, therefore, 100% employee-owned; so they lost more than their jobs. But I'm glad to hear that your friends are doing well.