Alliance: Ford - VW Extend Multibillion-Dollar Alliance To Electric, Automated Cars

[rainman + 263]

Ford Motor Co (F.N) and Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) said they will spend billions of dollars to jointly develop electric and self-driving vehicles, deepening a global alliance to slash development and manufacturing costs. How soon those investments will pay for themselves is an open question across the global auto industry. Ford and VW executives said the latest collaborations could save hundreds of millions of dollars for each company. But the projects will take time. The transitions to electric and self-driving vehicles, as well as the production volumes, were uncertain, said Ford Automotive President Joe Hinrichs at a news briefing on Friday in New York. Because of that uncertainty, and spiraling costs, “we are going to see more collaborations” between automakers, Hinrichs said. VW will invest $2.6 billion in Argo AI, Ford’s self-driving cars venture, and will buy $500 million worth of Argo shares from Ford, giving the two automakers equal stakes in the startup. Ford also will build an electric car in Europe using VW’s MEB electric vehicle platform, the companies said.

[pinto + 293]

In 10 years Ford will be a VW group brand...

[Pavel + 384]

Perfect couple. A company that lies about emissions and another that cannot build a transmission....

[joze44 + 39]

1 minute ago, Pavel said:

Perfect couple. A company that lies about emissions and another that cannot build a transmission....

Let's say two giants, Ford and VW, are trying to remove the Tesla from the throne

[50 shades of black + 254]

Big deal with big potential...

[rainman + 263]

8 minutes ago, pinto said:

In 10 years Ford will be a VW group brand...

The expansion of an alliance has been announced in January and which does not involve any cross-ownership of shares of each company. VW to share EV platform with Ford, invest in self-driving tech firm Argo AI.

[francoba + 93]

It makes a sense... they will work together on developing self-driving and electric cars in an attempt to reduce costs on new technologies.. So, logical and rational...

[James Regan + 1,776]

It may make sense at this point, but in reality we are letting another monster to be created, another cartel. By using generic motors to be used this is creating a monopoly.

Tread carefully and be careful what you wish for as you will be at the mercy of the same megalithic corps that are currently supplying and running carbon fueled machinery and the fuels required.

Do we believe that their methodology is any different from the current moguls of Industry.

Wolves 🐺 and sheep 🐑 clothing comes to mind, but as long as it’s green it’s go....

Ozone footprints 👣 will be in vogue soon.

Edited July 12, 2019 by James Regan

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 hours ago, James Regan said:

Tread carefully and be careful what you wish for as you will be at the mercy of the same megalithic corps that are currently supplying and running carbon fueled machinery and the fuels required.

James is quite correct in noting that the trend line is the construct of "megalithic corps."   The interesting issue is: what propels that?  Although the companies claim it is the costs, thus the costs of capital, let's remember this is not the construction of some new 300-passenger jetliner, for $14 billion.  Developing autos is a mature art, the knowledge base is widespread and well understood.  Rather, I would suggest these deals and cartels are a function of the continuing interferences of various governments into the development of the industry. 

To illustrate, take the case of the air-bag.  This got started when it became apparent that seat belts dramatically reduced deaths and injuries in road crashes. First came lap belts, then quickly came belts with shoulder harnesses.  Finally the cross-torso belt became standard issue.  Yet, on the way there was this (US) government demand for "passive" safety restraints, ones that would work whether or not the driver was compliant  (favorite term of the bureaucrats).  So the govt. demanded a passive belt, and the industry responded by placing one end of the restraint belt into a door receptacle that slid on a track over the top of the door window.  You stepped in, closed the door, and when you turned the key a motor would pull the belt from the front up and around the door to pull the belt across your torso, automatically.  The idea was that you could not start driving unless that belt was in place and you were restrained. 

It was a silly design, as the mechanics working on the cars would have these belts running back and forth whenever they jogged the key. Frustrated motorists started using razors to cut the belts out.  So the industry, pushed by the DOT, then developed the air-bag.  Now that air-bag was filled with an explosive detonator that in theory would ignite and puff out the bag like a pillow in a nano-second, set off by a sensor buried up front in the fascia, where it was exposed to salt, dirt, water, slush, debris, sand, all kinds of crud, and after ten years of abuse, would work perfectly in some nanosecond after collision contact but before compression of the auto body shell. 

All that expense, and the limits it imposes, is all a function fo bureaucrats. The auto builder could also simply supply a set of belts, and if you are dumb enough to go roaring around without them on, then hey, it was you who got killed, not the other guy. So why worry about it?  Instead, you have these millions of airbags out there, and now a good number are found to be defective, and each auto has to be pulled apart and new airbags installed - all at huge expense. 

This is what happens in societies where bureaucrats run amok.  There is no reasoning with a bureaucrat, their minds are on a different plane from yours.  they want perfection, and at your expense.  Plus, most of all, they want Compliance - your compliance to their edicts. To achieve that, the industry is pushed to becoming a cartel.   Who loses?  You do.

[James Regan + 1,776]

18 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

James is quite correct in noting that the trend line is the construct of "megalithic corps."   The interesting issue is: what propels that?  Although the companies claim it is the costs, thus the costs of capital, let's remember this is not the construction of some new 300-passenger jetliner, for $14 billion.  Developing autos is a mature art, the knowledge base is widespread and well understood.  Rather, I would suggest these deals and cartels are a function of the continuing interferences of various governments into the development of the industry. 

To illustrate, take the case of the air-bag.  This got started when it became apparent that seat belts dramatically reduced deaths and injuries in road crashes. First came lap belts, then quickly came belts with shoulder harnesses.  Finally the cross-torso belt became standard issue.  Yet, on the way there was this (US) government demand for "passive" safety restraints, ones that would work whether or not the driver was compliant  (favorite term of the bureaucrats).  So the govt. demanded a passive belt, and the industry responded by placing one end of the restraint belt into a door receptacle that slid on a track over the top of the door window.  You stepped in, closed the door, and when you turned the key a motor would pull the belt from the front up and around the door to pull the belt across your torso, automatically.  The idea was that you could not start driving unless that belt was in place and you were restrained. 

It was a silly design, as the mechanics working on the cars would have these belts running back and forth whenever they jogged the key. Frustrated motorists started using razors to cut the belts out.  So the industry, pushed by the DOT, then developed the air-bag.  Now that air-bag was filled with an explosive detonator that in theory would ignite and puff out the bag like a pillow in a nano-second, set off by a sensor buried up front in the fascia, where it was exposed to salt, dirt, water, slush, debris, sand, all kinds of crud, and after ten years of abuse, would work perfectly in some nanosecond after collision contact but before compression of the auto body shell. 

All that expense, and the limits it imposes, is all a function fo bureaucrats. The auto builder could also simply supply a set of belts, and if you are dumb enough to go roaring around without them on, then hey, it was you who got killed, not the other guy. So why worry about it?  Instead, you have these millions of airbags out there, and now a good number are found to be defective, and each auto has to be pulled apart and new airbags installed - all at huge expense. 

This is what happens in societies where bureaucrats run amok.  There is no reasoning with a bureaucrat, their minds are on a different plane from yours.  they want perfection, and at your expense.  Plus, most of all, they want Compliance - your compliance to their edicts. To achieve that, the industry is pushed to becoming a cartel.   Who loses?  You do.

Jan and this is not limited to first world countries. 

Imagine the scenario in Brasil where hunger and homelessness is rampant, Rio de Janeiro is Officially in a state of civil war. But only recently you would have had your car taken off you if you were stopped by the police and did not have a 1 liter Fire Extinguisher under your seat. So fire extinguisher shops were everywhere. Then for no reason at all it was taken down ie no longer law. WTF

We need to be very careful in what we wish for and what we allow the government and radicle interest groups to make law. It’s more often than not driven by key manufacturers and magnate groups propelling politicians fwd.

Cutrently crypto currencies has the government running scared and so they should be as they really do run the risk of losing control of the only tool they have and that’s the control of the people through fiscal tooling and rules.

USA believe they are the land of the free, but we are seeing a possible tipping point coming, and this is due to one person and I believe this person entered into government wholeheartedly with good intentions but realized that the swamp cannot be drained for good reason.

The worlds economics doesn’t randomly spin and a let’s throw the dice attitude is not at play, it’s all well planned.

With some spin(ish) to make it eatable.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

10 hours ago, rainman said:

Ford Motor Co (F.N) and Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) said they will spend billions of dollars to jointly develop electric and self-driving vehicles, deepening a global alliance to slash development and manufacturing costs. How soon those investments will pay for themselves is an open question across the global auto industry. Ford and VW executives said the latest collaborations could save hundreds of millions of dollars for each company. But the projects will take time. The transitions to electric and self-driving vehicles, as well as the production volumes, were uncertain, said Ford Automotive President Joe Hinrichs at a news briefing on Friday in New York. Because of that uncertainty, and spiraling costs, “we are going to see more collaborations” between automakers, Hinrichs said. VW will invest $2.6 billion in Argo AI, Ford’s self-driving cars venture, and will buy $500 million worth of Argo shares from Ford, giving the two automakers equal stakes in the startup. Ford also will build an electric car in Europe using VW’s MEB electric vehicle platform, the companies said.

https://europe.autonews.com/article/20141210/ANE/141209921/vw-fiat-mercedes-will-benefit-from-cng-market-growth Another choice that will compete with electric cars for a substantially lower price. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 7/12/2019 at 12:50 PM, Jan van Eck said:

James is quite correct in noting that the trend line is the construct of "megalithic corps."   The interesting issue is: what propels that?  Although the companies claim it is the costs, thus the costs of capital, let's remember this is not the construction of some new 300-passenger jetliner, for $14 billion.  Developing autos is a mature art, the knowledge base is widespread and well understood.  Rather, I would suggest these deals and cartels are a function of the continuing interferences of various governments into the development of the industry. 

To illustrate, take the case of the air-bag.  This got started when it became apparent that seat belts dramatically reduced deaths and injuries in road crashes. First came lap belts, then quickly came belts with shoulder harnesses.  Finally the cross-torso belt became standard issue.  Yet, on the way there was this (US) government demand for "passive" safety restraints, ones that would work whether or not the driver was compliant  (favorite term of the bureaucrats).  So the govt. demanded a passive belt, and the industry responded by placing one end of the restraint belt into a door receptacle that slid on a track over the top of the door window.  You stepped in, closed the door, and when you turned the key a motor would pull the belt from the front up and around the door to pull the belt across your torso, automatically.  The idea was that you could not start driving unless that belt was in place and you were restrained. 

It was a silly design, as the mechanics working on the cars would have these belts running back and forth whenever they jogged the key. Frustrated motorists started using razors to cut the belts out.  So the industry, pushed by the DOT, then developed the air-bag.  Now that air-bag was filled with an explosive detonator that in theory would ignite and puff out the bag like a pillow in a nano-second, set off by a sensor buried up front in the fascia, where it was exposed to salt, dirt, water, slush, debris, sand, all kinds of crud, and after ten years of abuse, would work perfectly in some nanosecond after collision contact but before compression of the auto body shell. 

All that expense, and the limits it imposes, is all a function fo bureaucrats. The auto builder could also simply supply a set of belts, and if you are dumb enough to go roaring around without them on, then hey, it was you who got killed, not the other guy. So why worry about it?  Instead, you have these millions of airbags out there, and now a good number are found to be defective, and each auto has to be pulled apart and new airbags installed - all at huge expense. 

This is what happens in societies where bureaucrats run amok.  There is no reasoning with a bureaucrat, their minds are on a different plane from yours.  they want perfection, and at your expense.  Plus, most of all, they want Compliance - your compliance to their edicts. To achieve that, the industry is pushed to becoming a cartel.   Who loses?  You do.

I put myself through school working at a car wash.  Those auto-belts were rare to see but what a pain in the butt when you are trying get in and out of cars as quickly as possible. Now they just annoy the heck out of you with alarms until you put the belt on.

Airbags save lives - I'm sure.  As does ABS, traction control, backup cameras and a bunch of other systems that are mandatory for new cars. Bureaucracy yes, but also fewer dead kids.

I just got a recall notice for my Toyota, all 6 airbags need to be replaced (not a Toyota product so other car manufacturers probably have the same problem).

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 7/12/2019 at 1:24 PM, James Regan said:

USA believe they are the land of the free, but we are seeing a possible tipping point coming, and this is due to one person and I believe this person entered into government wholeheartedly with good intentions but realized that the swamp cannot be drained for good reason.

One mans swamp is another mans wetland.  Wetlands are extremely important ecosystems! haha

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

14 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I'm sure.  As does ABS, traction control, backup cameras and a bunch of other systems that are mandatory for new cars. Bureaucracy yes, but also fewer dead kids.

Not really.  The Great Airbag Scandal has resulted in a massive recall, but the Takata Company that makes the airbags cannot possibly make enough fast enough, so a rationing system is set in, and the older cars (that are likely to be soon scrapped) are not getting replacements.  Those bags will improperly activate, and the force will snap the neck off your front-seat child and will kill your dog sitting up there.  Easily 150 kids in the USA have already been killed by improper airbag deployment.  The canister of compressed gas will activate at the wrong time, and it will send shrapnel into the car compartment, so you and your passenger will get shredded by shrapnel.  What's so great about airbags?  Nothing.  It is a failed technology, good only for the minds of the mendacious bureaucrats. 

ABS is another complex system that adds sensors in wheel wells attached to various axles.  So you have these electric probes in places where dirt, salt, road debris, brush, curbs slush and ice, all the great stuff goes and accumulates, and once a sensor wire pulls out or the probe gets blocked, your ABS system no longer functions.  For the driver who is totally marginal and inept, I grant you that an ABS system would be an aid.  For the competent driver, it is useless. Traction control, basically a limited-slip idea, works in marginal conditions, but if you really need traction control then either you should be off the road, or have a locking differential, or chains, or studded tires, or all of the above.  I drove for 18 years on iced-up roads in Canada and if the surface got impossible I stopped and tossed on a set of chains.  Don't get lazy. Now for back-up cameras, they are useless, a bureaucrat wet dream.  those things get mounted down low below the fascia so again they are prone to all kinds of damage, any dirt on the lens and it is useless, and you cannot install a trailer hitch because that is where that camera is sitting.  The Bureaucrats made those camera mandatory, not advisory, so the bureaucrats can have an orgasm thinking about all those cars with their fancy cameras and meanwhile it inhibits the development of competent driving skills.  They are useless, at least in the current iteration.

And there is zero evidence to suggest that there are less dead kids.  It is my view that driver standards in the USA need to be tightened up, and the unskilled should be invited to go by bicycle. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

9 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Not really.  The Great Airbag Scandal has resulted in a massive recall, but the Takata Company that makes the airbags cannot possibly make enough fast enough, so a rationing system is set in, and the older cars (that are likely to be soon scrapped) are not getting replacements.  Those bags will improperly activate, and the force will snap the neck off your front-seat child and will kill your dog sitting up there.  Easily 150 kids in the USA have already been killed by improper airbag deployment.  The canister of compressed gas will activate at the wrong time, and it will send shrapnel into the car compartment, so you and your passenger will get shredded by shrapnel.  What's so great about airbags?  Nothing.  It is a failed technology, good only for the minds of the mendacious bureaucrats. 

ABS is another complex system that adds sensors in wheel wells attached to various axles.  So you have these electric probes in places where dirt, salt, road debris, brush, curbs slush and ice, all the great stuff goes and accumulates, and once a sensor wire pulls out or the probe gets blocked, your ABS system no longer functions.  For the driver who is totally marginal and inept, I grant you that an ABS system would be an aid.  For the competent driver, it is useless. Traction control, basically a limited-slip idea, works in marginal conditions, but if you really need traction control then either you should be off the road, or have a locking differential, or chains, or studded tires, or all of the above.  I drove for 18 years on iced-up roads in Canada and if the surface got impossible I stopped and tossed on a set of chains.  Don't get lazy. Now for back-up cameras, they are useless, a bureaucrat wet dream.  those things get mounted down low below the fascia so again they are prone to all kinds of damage, any dirt on the lens and it is useless, and you cannot install a trailer hitch because that is where that camera is sitting.  The Bureaucrats made those camera mandatory, not advisory, so the bureaucrats can have an orgasm thinking about all those cars with their fancy cameras and meanwhile it inhibits the development of competent driving skills.  They are useless, at least in the current iteration.

And there is zero evidence to suggest that there are less dead kids.  It is my view that driver standards in the USA need to be tightened up, and the unskilled should be invited to go by bicycle. 

You and one of my best friends would get along fine. He complains about every new feature like the first car was perfect.

"Daytime running lights, what if I don't want my lights on?  Stupid"   Haha

Modern traction control is pretty impressive on ice. I have to use the hand brake to start a drift now.  

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

25 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

 

And there is zero evidence to suggest that there are less dead kids.  It is my view that driver standards in the USA need to be tightened up, and the unskilled should be invited to go by bicycle. 

 

It's being published...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29584474

"A significant 41% reduction in real-world backover crashes was found for Australian vehicles with reversing cameras."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27865139

"Compared to vehicles without any of these technologies, reduced odds of backover injury were estimated for all three of these technology configurations: 0.59 (95% CI 0.39-0.88) for reversing cameras by themselves; 0.70 (95% CI 0.49-1.01) for both reversing cameras and sensors; 0.69 (95% CI 0.47-1.03) for reverse parking sensors by themselves. These findings are important as they are the first to our knowledge to present an assessment of real-world safety effectiveness of these technologies."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28394632

"When rear visibility systems become required equipment on new passenger vehicles in 2018, rearview cameras can be expected to prevent 1 in 6 backing crashes reported to police that involve equipped vehicles."

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

4 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

"Daytime running lights, what if I don't want my lights on?  Stupid"   Haha

DRL's are a dumb idea, for two reasons.  I once snapped a two-part pulley on a SAAB, where the halves were welded to a rubber core to act as a vibration dampener.  when the core failed, the generator quit, and I had to get her home on the battery reserve juice.  With DRL's I would have never made it, and would have faced an expensive tow. 

The other problem with DRL's is that you cannot "flash" a trucker who is passing in busy road conditions and needs to determine the safe clearance at the back of his rig.  They cannot determine your flash signal when the car has those pesky DRL's.  The trucker has to guess, and that inevitably leads to carnage at some point.  So no, lousy idea.  If you want to have a low-intensity white light, go install a separate set and install a toggle switch to turn them on and off.  Part of being a trained, responsible driver is knowing how and when to make yourself visible.

Nothing wrong with improving a car design.  But that implies that the improvement is actual, not some fad designed by bureaucrats.  Automatic chains are fabulous  (the tire chain self-installs with a dash toggle switch). 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

21 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

DRL's are a dumb idea, for two reasons.  I once snapped a two-part pulley on a SAAB, where the halves were welded to a rubber core to act as a vibration dampener.  when the core failed, the generator quit, and I had to get her home on the battery reserve juice.  With DRL's I would have never made it, and would have faced an expensive tow. 

The other problem with DRL's is that you cannot "flash" a trucker who is passing in busy road conditions and needs to determine the safe clearance at the back of his rig.  They cannot determine your flash signal when the car has those pesky DRL's.  The trucker has to guess, and that inevitably leads to carnage at some point.  So no, lousy idea.  If you want to have a low-intensity white light, go install a separate set and install a toggle switch to turn them on and off.  Part of being a trained, responsible driver is knowing how and when to make yourself visible.

Nothing wrong with improving a car design.  But that implies that the improvement is actual, not some fad designed by bureaucrats.  Automatic chains are fabulous  (the tire chain self-installs with a dash toggle switch). 

I see people driving without their lights on at night.  If DRLs let me help see the morons I'm all for them.

They also waste a tiny bit of gas, and burn out bulbs, so there is an environmental footprint. Still net positive.

https://www.dot.state.mn.us/research/TRS/2011/TRS1009.pdf

Edited July 13, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

 

The other problem with DRL's is that you cannot "flash" a trucker who is passing in busy road conditions and needs to determine the safe clearance at the back of his rig.

This confused me for a moment; truckers pass you? I'm always passing them.  Also Pro truckers know how to drive; or they quickly stop being pro truckers.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

Just now, Enthalpic said:

truckers pass you? I'm always passing them

If you are dong that, then you are driving like a banshee!   Save the fuel, throttle back to 60 and put that money back into your pocket.  Gasoline is expensive. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

7 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

If you are dong that, then you are driving like a banshee!   Save the fuel, throttle back to 60 and put that money back into your pocket.  Gasoline is expensive. 

I do the speed limit  +10Km/h everywhere.  Highway I get 600Km for a tank (about $40 CND, 372 miles for $30.64 USD).

Little Toyota.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Little Toyota.

My big (gigantic) limousine rolls along at about 23 mpg maybe, and I keep it to 60.  I have to run premium (91 octane)  so it sets me back $3.25/gal  (US).  At 5,000 lbs, it is thirsty enough!   Sure is nice to drive, though.  Smooth.