Biogas projects in Vermont

[NickW + 2,714]

I said a few months back that biogas would be one solution of many to Vermonts manure issue.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/Renewable-Natural-Gas-Close-To-Taking-Off-In-US.html

[markslawson + 1,057]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

I said a few months back that biogas would be one solution of many to Vermonts manure issue.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/Renewable-Natural-Gas-Close-To-Taking-Off-In-US.html

If people want to do this I see no reason to object, but its hard to believe this source of gas would be significant compared with major LNG projects or the fracking industry.. niche I would have thought. The article refers to methane emissions. These have been puzzling scientists for years. As you can see from the graph in this article the rise in methane paused for some years up to 2007, throwing off a lot of doomsday scenarios, before increasing again.. The scientists say they have solved the puzzle. Maybe. They should make a forecast and we'll se how it works out. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

The issue is marketing to those on the fence over using natural gas at all. Many politicians and supposed environmentalists see natural gas as a threat to wind and solar which they insist on. They overlook the fact that it is a great way to get rid of waste that causes pollution otherwise and costs money to get rid of. 

My topic on biogas is here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N-TLMeHsKYBCirxS0vbqMGHpU2SmyLuCc7bqp8eYXVM/edit

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, markslawson said:

If people want to do this I see no reason to object, but its hard to believe this source of gas would be significant compared with major LNG projects or the fracking industry.. niche I would have thought. The article refers to methane emissions. These have been puzzling scientists for years. As you can see from the graph in this article the rise in methane paused for some years up to 2007, throwing off a lot of doomsday scenarios, before increasing again.. The scientists say they have solved the puzzle. Maybe. They should make a forecast and we'll se how it works out. 

Its about 3kwh of biogas per head of cattle per day. I recall Vermont has about 250,000 cattle. Would probably be higher but most of NY have gone soy

Assume 50% of that is utilised then you have 375000kwh a day (137 gwh annually)The anaerobic digesters can be used to digest other organic wastes so you can scale up.

The benefits go beyond the gas. The process reduces volume by 10-15% and renders the manure much more easy to handle. It can be pasteurised and marketed. The digestion reduces its water / air pollution potential

Also farmers get a secondary income.

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, markslawson said:

If people want to do this I see no reason to object, but its hard to believe this source of gas would be significant compared with major LNG projects or the fracking industry.. niche I would have thought. The article refers to methane emissions. These have been puzzling scientists for years. As you can see from the graph in this article the rise in methane paused for some years up to 2007, throwing off a lot of doomsday scenarios, before increasing again.. The scientists say they have solved the puzzle. Maybe. They should make a forecast and we'll se how it works out. 

The estimated potential of UK biogas operations is about 150 TWH from all sources. That's about 1/6th of the UK's current gas needs.

Biogas is not going to displace fossil fuels but its a technology all countries can apply to help reduce their dependence on imports. Furthermore biogas isn't intermittent, a concern you frequently raise on renewable threads.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

2 minutes ago, NickW said:

The estimated potential of UK biogas operations is about 150 TWH from all sources. That's about 1/6th of the UK's current gas needs.

Biogas is not going to displace fossil fuels but its a technology all countries can apply to help reduce their dependence on imports. Furthermore biogas isn't intermittent, a concern you frequently raise on renewable threads.

And requires 150TWH of energy to collect all the cow manure out of the pastures... The penned up cow manure... you can use that as it is already collected.  The vast majority you are quoting?  No. 

[NickW + 2,714]

2 minutes ago, Wastral said:

And requires 150TWH of energy to collect all the cow manure out of the pastures... The penned up cow manure... you can use that as it is already collected.  The vast majority you are quoting?  No. 

 'from all sources' I mean concentrated wastes - primarily pig and poultry manure although cattle in feedlots could be included, food processing wastes, organic municipal waste and waste crops.

An exclusion would be diffuse manure on pastures from cattle and sheep.

 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

2 minutes ago, NickW said:

 'from all sources' I mean concentrated wastes - primarily pig and poultry manure although cattle in feedlots could be included, food processing wastes, organic municipal waste and waste crops.

An exclusion would be diffuse manure on pastures from cattle and sheep.

 

Know the guys here in Washington State USA who put in a biogas generator.  They own a ton of dairy and the output was WAAAYYY below what they thought and they were losing their shirts in relation to pay back.  It does get rid of some of the waste bulk which MUST be gotten rid of anyways, but that was being re-used as fertilizer to begin with so.....  Now, if this process was also used for all other waste, then we would be onto something(including human poop).  Frankly, an excellent chemistry project would be phosphorous removal.  Allow farmers to place the phosphorous where they want/need instead of half of it turning into surface run off when the manure is applied. 

[NickW + 2,714]

7 minutes ago, Wastral said:

Know the guys here in Washington State USA who put in a biogas generator.  They own a ton of dairy and the output was WAAAYYY below what they thought and they were losing their shirts in relation to pay back.  It does get rid of some of the waste bulk which MUST be gotten rid of anyways, but that was being re-used as fertilizer to begin with so.....  Now, if this process was also used for all other waste, then we would be onto something(including human poop).  Frankly, an excellent chemistry project would be phosphorous removal.  Allow farmers to place the phosphorous where they want/need instead of half of it turning into surface run off when the manure is applied. 

Much of that is due to bacteria management which is a dark art. My wife was offered a PHD bursary on a project seeking to enhance output from  pig manure a few years back.

One of the advantages of Anaerobic digestion is that you can pasteurise the manure which kills off pathogens and parasites which is better if the material is going to be respread on land.

Edited July 30, 2019 by NickW

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, Wastral said:

Know the guys here in Washington State USA who put in a biogas generator.  They own a ton of dairy and the output was WAAAYYY below what they thought and they were losing their shirts in relation to pay back.  It does get rid of some of the waste bulk which MUST be gotten rid of anyways, but that was being re-used as fertilizer to begin with so.....  Now, if this process was also used for all other waste, then we would be onto something(including human poop).  Frankly, an excellent chemistry project would be phosphorous removal.  Allow farmers to place the phosphorous where they want/need instead of half of it turning into surface run off when the manure is applied. 

Our local sewage treatment plant has an advance phos recovery system and makes fertilizer.  Win/win (you have to deal with the poop).

https://ostara.com/project/edmonton-reveals-worlds-first-industrial-scale-sewage-treatment-facility-to-recycle-nutrients-into-environmentally-safe-commercial-fertilizer/

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, NickW said:

 

One of the advantages of Anaerobic digestion is that you can pasteurise the manure which kills off pathogens and parasites which is better if the material is going to be respread on land.

It's that just called composting?  True compost has to reach a certain temp for a defined period (I don't know the numbers off hand).

Edited July 30, 2019 by Enthalpic

[NickW + 2,714]

3 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

It's that just called composting?  True compost has to reach a certain temp for a defined period (I don't know the numbers off hand).

With AD they often have an onsite generator that uses biogas to generate electricity for internal use and often export. The waste heat is used to help get the digester to optimum temperatures during the mesophillic and thermophillic stages. To pasteurise the operator simply jacks up the temperature to above 60 degrees C which kills all non spore forming pathogens and parasites (worms & flukes) 

But yes composting - an aerobic process can get to these temperatures too and achieve the same effect. Problem with composting is its an aerobic process and only produces CO2. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Our local sewage treatment plant has an advance phos recovery system and makes fertilizer.  Win/win (you have to deal with the poop).

https://ostara.com/project/edmonton-reveals-worlds-first-industrial-scale-sewage-treatment-facility-to-recycle-nutrients-into-environmentally-safe-commercial-fertilizer/

This sounds like a process that should be used worldwide to combat water pollution. Hopefully it is cost effective enough to proliferate widely. 

Added it to my Water Pollution page. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wnuN1GalCVab1WBYke-9dUrQQ4Wmdf_YN_E9cBPiVzo/edit#

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

It's that just called composting?  True compost has to reach a certain temp for a defined period (I don't know the numbers off hand).

Manure runoff is a big problem with cattle, swine, poultry etc. because of the concentrated areas in which it now takes place. I don't think it is a big problem where the animals are not concentrated. 

[markslawson + 1,057]

13 hours ago, NickW said:

The estimated potential of UK biogas operations is about 150 TWH from all sources. That's about 1/6th of the UK's current gas needs.

Oh sure, "estimate potential". Enthalopic has already pointed out the difficulties. It remains a lot of trouble to go to for gas. Where the manure and such is easy to collect it might be worth doing.. As for the point about intermittency quite right, it would not be intermittent so I have much less of a problem with it than wind and solar.. 

[NickW + 2,714]

7 hours ago, markslawson said:

Oh sure, "estimate potential". Enthalopic has already pointed out the difficulties. It remains a lot of trouble to go to for gas. Where the manure and such is easy to collect it might be worth doing.. As for the point about intermittency quite right, it would not be intermittent so I have much less of a problem with it than wind and solar.. 

I am not certain what problems he has pointed out. His comments seem to be limited to composting (a different process) and phosphate recovery. 

For the UK its limited space and some extremely intensive agricultural operations that concentrate wastes conveniently that are then usable in biogas operations. Irrespective of the gas potential the waste has to be handled. Spreading raw manure on fields of that intensity is problematic and usually has to be injected which is more expensive and time consuming. AD renders the waste much easier to handle. 

Map of current biogas operations across the UK

http://www.biogas-info.co.uk/resources/biogas-map/

[NickW + 2,714]

19 hours ago, markslawson said:

Oh sure, "estimate potential". Enthalopic has already pointed out the difficulties. It remains a lot of trouble to go to for gas. Where the manure and such is easy to collect it might be worth doing.. As for the point about intermittency quite right, it would not be intermittent so I have much less of a problem with it than wind and solar.. 

Ok maybe we will only achieve 100 tWh instead of 150 tWh. Thats still that equivalent of 9 bn m3 per annum. That would place UK Biogas between Israel and Libya on the global table of producers. 

[markslawson + 1,057]

4 hours ago, NickW said:

Ok maybe we will only achieve 100 tWh instead of 150 tWh. Thats still that equivalent of 9 bn m3 per annum. That would place UK Biogas between Israel and Libya on the global table of producers. 

I thought the objections Enthalopic made were fairly clear. You have to pay out a certain amount of energy to get the material together and then there is some sort of cooking process in apparatus/infrastructure set up for each agricultural operation .. this is in contrast to the conventional means of sinking a well into the ground and then tapping the gas of which there would be a great deal more for each installation. It is very, very, very difficult to believe that bio-gas could compete economically with natural gas without substantial subsidies. Sure you will find niche, well-subsidised projects that make the news. In any case, if such bio-gas really is viable then developers should get busy and contradict me with large numbers of working projects. But I doubt that's going to happen. Anyway, leave it with you..   

[NickW + 2,714]

9 hours ago, markslawson said:

I thought the objections Enthalopic made were fairly clear. You have to pay out a certain amount of energy to get the material together and then there is some sort of cooking process in apparatus/infrastructure set up for each agricultural operation .. this is in contrast to the conventional means of sinking a well into the ground and then tapping the gas of which there would be a great deal more for each installation. It is very, very, very difficult to believe that bio-gas could compete economically with natural gas without substantial subsidies. Sure you will find niche, well-subsidised projects that make the news. In any case, if such bio-gas really is viable then developers should get busy and contradict me with large numbers of working projects. But I doubt that's going to happen. Anyway, leave it with you..   

I think you are talking about Wastral.

When you have 5000 pigs / 500,000 poultry in a feed lot that's a lot of waste to continually process. Its not like having a few sheep or cattle on a pasture.

As I said if a country doesn't have gas resources biogas is attractive from an energy security perspective.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

22 hours ago, markslawson said:

I thought the objections Enthalopic made were fairly clear. You have to pay out a certain amount of energy to get the material together and then there is some sort of cooking process in apparatus/infrastructure set up for each agricultural operation .. this is in contrast to the conventional means of sinking a well into the ground and then tapping the gas of which there would be a great deal more for each installation. It is very, very, very difficult to believe that bio-gas could compete economically with natural gas without substantial subsidies. Sure you will find niche, well-subsidised projects that make the news. In any case, if such bio-gas really is viable then developers should get busy and contradict me with large numbers of working projects. But I doubt that's going to happen. Anyway, leave it with you..   

Biogas is very popular with those concerned about getting rid of the waste in an acceptable manner while still having leftover residue that can be safely used as a soil additive. Trucking companies and those that use them are very fond of being able to say and advertise that they are greener than their competition. Normal natural gas is good but biogas, by whatever name, is preferable form a public relations point of view. It is catching on quite rapidly. This waste, which must be gotten rid of somehow, costs money to dispose of. It includes waste streams from many industries including grocers and restaurants. 

https://redeem.cleanenergyfuels.com/ Just one of many companies, around the world, selling biogas.

 My biogas topic. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N-TLMeHsKYBCirxS0vbqMGHpU2SmyLuCc7bqp8eYXVM/edit

Edited August 1, 2019 by ronwagn
added reference

[markslawson + 1,057]

51 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Normal natural gas is good but biogas, by whatever name, is preferable form a public relations point of view. It is catching on quite rapidly. This waste, which must be gotten rid of somehow, costs money to dispose of. It includes waste streams from many industries including grocers and restaurants. 

Okay, I take that point - still niche but there can be other reasons other than simply making the gas for sale.. 

[NickW + 2,714]

6 hours ago, markslawson said:

Okay, I take that point - still niche but there can be other reasons other than simply making the gas for sale.. 

Odour control is one. AD is an enclosed process so makes it much easier to mitigate odour problems. The smell from a 5000 pig feed lot is quite different from a few dozen free ranging on a pasture.