It's Not the Job of the Government to Dictate Where Businesses Should Go

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

13 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

Those who accuse others of being "true believers" are always the true believers themselves.  Just as those who accuse others of having authoritarian tendencies are often the most authoritarian themselves.  When I heard Trump attack Obama for being dictatorial because he uses "too many executive orders" I KNEW that when Trump became president he would abuse the very same thing and that his supporters would find excuses for it.  So far I have been proven right.  

Tell me: when's the last time you've said anything bad about Trump? I'm telling you: it's a f-ing cult and I hate cults of all variety.  

As I said earlier: most of you are Republicans/Trumpists first, Americans second.  Just look at the evidence of your behavior.  

Dude, the illogic in your posts says everything about your "true belief". If you were a paid member of the Chinese communist party there wouldn't be a single difference in your posts. Intentional or accident? 

US Steel has antiquated plants using blast furnaces that run on coke. Nucor uses electric arc furnaces that are massively superior in efficiency and quality of output product. Nucor and those like them are doing fantastic right now, which I know because I know the companies who supply them, who have more business than they've had in over 35 years. 

I get it, you're butt hurt that China is hurting. My wife is Chinese and she's not. She's American now and sees China for exactly what it is, a corrupt kleptocracy. Trump, unlike our own corrupt presidents like CLINTON who entered office "dead broke" and is now worth billions, is standing up to the Chinese in favor of the electorate who put him in office. He's opposed by the Congress critters who are taking money hand over fist from the Chinese. I hope he wins this battle, because what's good for America is good for me and my family. I'm not against other countries but it is reasonable that every country puts its own interests first. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

Concerning "executive orders". The vast majority of Trump executive orders are photo ops that have no Substance. They are nowhere near as far reaching and close to dictatorship as what FDR produced during his tyranny. His executive order making it illegal for Americans to own gold caused my true believer Democratic Party grandfather to dutifully deposit his $800,000 in gold at the local bank. They gave him a nice deposit slip then immediately went out of business, taking his entire fortune with them. The gold ended up in the hands of the banks FDR's cronies owned. 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Ward Smith

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

7 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

She's American now and sees China for exactly what it is, a corrupt kleptocracy.

This is very true.  And additional to this factor, the same is also true of the Russian Federation. The "kleptocracy" aspect of the leaderships is worrying; it means that there will always be distortions in attempts to sign trade treaties  (indeed, any kind of treaties).  I see this is a very big problem, not resolvable by outsiders to those regimes.  

In practice, I suspect the solution will be to simply cut those countries out of the international trading order. Just exclude them, much as North Korea.  Hard to see how you can deal with it objectively, in those circumstances. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

34 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

US Steel has antiquated plants using blast furnaces that run on coke.

That is only part of the story,and likely not even a large part.  The coke furnaces will process raw iron ore, while the typical electric-arc furnace uses scrap steel as an input.  The industry has gone to scrap as there is a lot of it around, and is cheap.  All of the industrial inputs from the last century are now wearing out and set to be replaced, everything from obsolete old bridge steel to worn-out railroad track to scrapped car bodies and appliances, all that steel is out there on the scrap market, for pennies. Why dig new iron ore out of a mountain when you have all that scrap to take? 

Further, the reduction in numbers of furnaces is more correlated to the greater overall economic slowdown than to using coke. To illustrate, the Dofasco furnaces in Hamilton all run on coke, yet remain booked to produce specialty high-strength auto body steel.  There is no question that the economy is showing signs of slowing, which the Federal Reserve is attempting to counter by an interest rate reduction of 1/4 percent.  Will that be sufficient?  Probably not.  Expect rates to continue to drop as the Fed seeks to make cheap money available for debt borrowing in new plant and equipment. 

The US is unusual in that some 2/3 of spending is consumer spending.  Consumer spending is largely driven by net real wages. Unfortunately, real wages are stagnant, and I attribute this to a large extent to China scooping up dollars that would otherwise be spent on American-made goods. One of the little-discussed aspects of the Trump tariffs is that they will start to push up real wages in the USA, which in turn will re-engage the US economy.  Stick around and watch.  

[Zhong Lu + 845]

@Ward Smith and Others

Actually, let's clear this up.  What do I believe in? I know what I believe in, but what I'm curious about, Ward Smith and others, is what you think I believe in.  

I suspect there's going to some pretty big differences between what you think I believe in and what I believe in.  So let's clear them up.  Give me a list of what you think I believe in and I'll let you know if that list is correct or not.  

Then we can continue this discussion on a more rational basis because right now it sounds like you're punching a straw man.  

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

7 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

What do I believe in?

Guess what, Zhong, nobody can figure that out because your posts are opaque. 

Now here's the kicker:  nobody much cares what you individually believe in.  That is neither important nor interesting.  What counts on this Forum are not your beliefs, nor mine; what counts is what the facts are and how the matters in controversy are evolving.  More particularly, how the world goes is what affects various aspects of oil, which you are getting away from. Bottom line:  you really need to relax and mellow, the world does not revolve around your beliefs, whatever they might be.  Cheers. 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

1.  Facts are beliefs. 

2.  Mellow discussions make for bad discussions.  Discussions are better when everyone's NOT mellow.  

3.  I'm aware, but I'm getting annoyed at people misattributing my beliefs in direct contrast to what I wrote earlier.  If you told me you're from  France, and I continue to insist that you're from Russia and a Putin troll, you'd get annoyed too.  

4.  When has this forum ever stayed on topic on oil? 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 minute ago, Zhong Lu said:

I'm aware, but I'm getting annoyed by people misattributing my beliefs in direct contrast to what I wrote earlier.  If that happened to you, you'd get annoyed too.  

Actually, I would not "get annoyed."  I would conclude that I was not being clear.  Clarity  prevents misconstruing.  

See, you don't get it.  You write ideological diatribe which is so much rubbish.  Then you become angry when others call you on it.  Your sharp, adversarial style makes rational discussion impossible; you drift off into being an ideologue.  You dump all over the United States without seeing the exemplary parts of the society that make it great.  IT is a bit like trying to have a rational discussion about guns with a Clintonista - that is not possible.  Just cannot be done. The Left-Wingers say:  you need protection, go call a policeman.  OK, so what happens when you live in a part of the world where the nearest policeman is at least 40 minutes away, and that is only if he happens to be in the general neighborhood?

My local school just had a pre-school-year presentation by a sergeant on the State Police, regarding the (fortunately remote) issue of school shootings.  He advised the school staff on techniques to lock down and "shelter in place."  The policeman was perfectly candid, and said, look, you will be sitting ducks unless you can lock and barricade the classroom doors, because we may not get here in less than 40 minutes."  This is a rural area, with rural schools. Now the reality is that we don't have problems here, because every single person living next door to the school is armed.  Some mental case shows up, the locals will rush out and deal with him. You tell that to a Clintonista and they are horrified, the response is, we confiscate all guns.  Unfortunately that cat is out of the bag, that is no longer possible, nor even plausible.  American society has evolved in a certain direction, whether you like it or not, and if you live here you have to deal with it. Does that mean that much greater resources have to be allocated for mental health intervention and treatment?  But of course.  But attempting to abolish firearms is just not a workable resolution. 

OK, I digress.  The parallel is your stance on Mr. Trump.  Personally, looking at it as an outsider, I find him awkward to support.  He has a host of personality defects. Meanwhile, he is the ONLY person of any prominence who has the balls, big brass balls, to go straight to the Korean DMZ and stand there awaiting Mr. Kim, then shake his hand and step over that Demarcation Line and have an amiable chat with him.  Making Peace is a lot harder than making War, which is what the Clintonistas are so fond of. And he is the ONLY person of any prominence to say to the Europeans, enough already of your coasting along on the US dime, letting us do your military protection, hey, time for you guys to also step up to the plate.  And he is the ONLY person to say to the Chinese, OK, enough already with your mercantilist exploitation, time to knock it off, if you don't I will tariff you off the playing field. 

So: are Americans prepared to overlook all his other flaws in order to advance the agenda?  Sure looks like it. And that is the last I am going to say to you, because right now your obsession of what other people think of you is getting narcissistic, and I have other things to do. 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Then let's talk about you and your positions.

1.  Why does it matter if President Trump has the balls, so to speak, to walk over the Korean DMZ? There has been no change in North Korea's behavior.  Isn't it just a photo op? A PR move and little more? 

2.  When it comes to gun violence, it's overstated.  If people want to run around with guns, let them.  More people die in car accidents than mass shootings, so there's better things to focus on.

3.  Are Americans prepared to overlook his flaws, as you claim? Some are and some aren't.  The elections haven't happened so that isn't determined yet.    

4.  Has Trump made peace anywhere? 

You talk of Trump's motivations.  Perhaps you should focus instead on his results. For example, does Trump's policies actually stop or limit China's mercantalist expansionism? Or is it accelerating it? 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

28 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Some mental case shows up, the locals will rush out and deal with him. You tell that to a Clintonista and they are horrified, the response is, we confiscate all guns. 

The "mental case" may be a student who now has easy access to guns.

Statistically you are far more likely to kill yourself, or get murdered with your own gun, than you are to stop a crime.

Responsible gun ownership for hunting: long gun in a safe with a trigger lock, ammo stored separately also locked.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

5 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

The "mental case" may be a student who now has easy access to guns.

Let's not hijack the thread.  I raised the point merely to illustrate. The thread remains Mr. Lu's ideas about Trump telling businesses where to locate.  Cheers.  

Edited September 1, 2019 by Jan van Eck
typing error

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Yes. Speaking of which, it pisses me off when someone with power in government tells businesses where they should or should not go.  As I see it, that's up to the business's decision.  

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

7 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Those who accuse others of being "true believers" are always the true believers themselves.  Just as those who accuse others of having authoritarian tendencies are often the most authoritarian themselves.  When I heard Trump attack Obama for being dictatorial because he uses "too many executive orders" I KNEW that when Trump became president he would abuse the very same thing and that his supporters would find excuses for it.  So far I have been proven right.  

Tell me: when's the last time you've said anything bad about Trump? I'm telling you: it's a f-ing cult and I hate cults of all variety.  

As I said earlier: most of you are Republicans/Trumpists first, Americans second.  Just look at the evidence of your behavior.  

Flunk for repeated, unsupported generalizations and demonization of those who disagree with you.

This graphic may trigger some people, and I am perfectly fine with that:

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Says the person surrendering to the dictates of authoritarian nationalism.  As a libertarian I find that much more alarming.

The nearest threat is always the most dangerous.  

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

4 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

1.  Facts are beliefs. 

War is peace.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Government interference in private affairs is unacceptable except when it's not.  

Speaking of which, we need to have a debate somewhere else over point 1.   

EDIT: And if you don't like globalism, go ahead and hate it. I don't mind.  Most libertarians probably wouldn't mind, either. We all have our hatreds.  Freedom of speech, and all.  Just don't use it as an excuse to support a dictator wannabe.  

Edited August 31, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[James Regan + 1,776]

20 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Flunk for repeated, unsupported generalizations and demonization of those who disagree with you.

This graphic may trigger some people, and I am perfectly fine with that:

Adapt or stagnate....

As Warren Buffet likes to say, “you only learn who has been swimming naked when the tide goes out...

[Zhong Lu + 845]

"To fight the dangers of communism, we must adopt fascism."

-so said Mussolini's supporters. [edited] 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[James Regan + 1,776]

28 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

"To fight the dangers of communism, we must adopt fascism."

-so said Hitler's supporters.  

Just using that name Hitler doesn't give you the morale high ground, but tends to get a lot of support in any debate, its basically you trying to end the discussion in your favour and in my book considered a cheap shot a winning an argument.

The 25 point program has a lot of good points, and you should read it.

(Currently wearing a high dollar Hugo Boss suit, made in China)

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by James Regan

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Fine.  Edited to Mussolini.  Happy? 

EDIT: Mao's 5 Year Plans had a lot of good points, too.  He also meant well.  You should read it, too.  

"The idea here is to develop China's economy."  Who can object to that? 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

"The people to trust the least are the ones who have the best intentions for others."

A quote I made up, though I probably copied it from somewhere else.  

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

2 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

A quote I made up, though I probably copied it from somewhere else.  

Well, here's some kudos for at least being realistic. 

Now, moving back to your comment that "Trump"  is a f___ing cult,"  and nobody here ever says anything bad about him, etc., I would remind you that I have been uniformly critical of Mr. Trump and his personal behaviour, and also critical of his conduct towards the Europeans, who, let me remind readers, are and remain long-term allies of the USA.  That said, I totally support and applaud his taking on the Europeans for their failures to properly staff and fund their land armies, specifically in the face of renewed Russian aggression  (a very unfortunate development, in that I had personally hoped that Russia would become part of Greater Europe and co-operate with the other nations), and in his ability to defuse the tensions on the Korean Peninsula.  Now you criticize that applause by saying that nothing has happened that is different.  That is an incorrect reading.  A lot is different.  First, Mr. Kim is no longer firing off ballistic missiles over Japan, and not threatening to land one on top of Guam, which he could do (complete with nuclear warhead, compliments of Mr. Khan of Pakistan who sold him the blueprints and the technology, that bastard). Peace can be de-facto, defined as a state of non-war.  So, that is one accomplishment.

And then we have Mr. Trump's stellar performance in taking down Chinese exploitation of Americans, and he is the man for the job in that the other candidates for President, specifically the Clintonistas, were perfectly delighted to go run headlong into yet another trade trap, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which would have led to ever more wealth shifts to China and the enfeeblement of Americans. And you can say what you like, he actually pulled that off. 

Now, should he have imposed tariffs on Canadian steel?  Probably not. That one got lost in the shuffle, so to speak. No policy implementation is perfect.  It happens.  Could that have been better finessed?  Sure it could have. Nobody's totally perfect. Although I grant you that I do get pretty close.  Cheers.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

In regards to North Korea, I believe you're wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_missile_tests

But that's a minor point.

In regards to standing up to China: yes and no.  That the Chinese government needs to be stood up to in some areas is a reasonable position.  Whether Trump is successfully doing it, is another matter.  I will have to clarify this position, so let me think about how to express it.  

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Yes. Speaking of which, it pisses me off when someone with power in government tells businesses where they should or should not go.  As I see it, that's up to the business's decision.  

Fine.  What you are saying as a Libertarian is that town zoning laws should be abolished.  If a business wants to set up in a residential area then they should be perfectly entitled to do so.  And there are towns where the people all agree with you, and have no zoning laws.  But for the most part, society is structured to have specific sites where certain businesses can operate, and others where they cannot.

To illustrate, a rock-crushing operation locally set up a new machine, to manufacture hot asphalt.  The asphalt plant creates a foul smell and that noxious odor makes life impossible for the residential neighborhood next door.  And all the dust and trucks from the rock crusher are another burden.  The plant fails to meet zoning requirements.  After a long battle, the State Supreme Court ruled that the operation did not need special exemptions due to being the logical extension of the rock-mining operation that was there for the last century. But the burden on the community is beyond question. 

OK< so that was not exactly the context you had it on, but the principle is the same:  community governments do have some control o er business enterprises. That is the way the world is structured, so roll with it. If you ran a manufacturing business, you would grasp that. 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

I like history so let's start with a history lesson.  

In the 1980s, before Deng's reforms took root, China was a very poor nation.  The viewpoint back then, and this viewpoint that still lingers, was that China was an exploited nation.   The Opium War is probably the best example where the Brits started a war to sell drugs to China.  Then there was that entire WWII thing with Japan, the threats of the US government in the 60s and 70s, the Korean War, etc.  Whether this view of the Chinese is justified is a matter of debate, but for anyone willing to make the argument that China was exploited, there certainly was a plethora of evidence.  

And now today, China is accused of being the exploiter by the US.  I find that extremely amusing as a matter of historical irony.  I'm not saying this view is wrong.  Nor am I saying it's right.  But I do find it hilariously funny in an ironic way.  

[Stopping to think again]

Edited September 1, 2019 by Zhong Lu