It's Not the Job of the Government to Dictate Where Businesses Should Go

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

7 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

So I have.  See the many posts above. I stated my beliefs.  Now read it if you dare.  

And everyone else has made it clear what they believe your beliefs are.

Go back and ‘read it if you dare’.

For a second there I thought we could have a restart where you would succinctly state your beliefs in a single post, remove any ambiguity and go from there.

Apparently not.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 8/28/2019 at 7:29 AM, Boat said:

Each product line or product has its own level of sophistication but it would have to be pretty complex to avoid being reverse engineered or stolen. The charge against China I would guess would be mass producing rather simple stuff off a newer twist.

Smithfield is a pork producer the Chinese bought in the US for 10 billion. In that case besides the latest tech they probably wanted trainers for new plants in China.

Another thought would be tech moves so fast the shelf life is short and damage is limited.

I am not sure that avoiding business with China protects you. If they want something or some information it would not be that hard to get. Music, books and videos have no protection for example.

I am sure Apple and Samsung steal the latest and greatest from each other. The Chinese market is large and appealing. But it is the wild, Wild West.

 

 

The Chinese market is restricted by unfair governmental rules. We are just evening up the rules. Chinese products have greatly benefitted Americans but has now become a great adversary due to their overreach worldwide. They want to be treated as a Third World Country, but are no longer one. 

[Boat + 1,323]

On 8/24/2019 at 8:53 AM, Zhong Lu said:

If there is some "dear leader" at the top of the government ordering private companies what they can do or not do with their money, that's either fascism or socialism.  

If Obama had told US companies they cannot move their businesses to a country because "I hereby order them to", how do you think Republicans  would have reacted? 

In this country both parties take turns playing dear leader. It’s what power gives and somebody has to be in power eh? Commenters, pundants, voters and politicians all know power/legislation picks winners and losers so of course there is incentive to influence advantages for their piece of the pie.

I personally don’t care how you and others label groups or systems, by choice stray from group think and for amusement apply my version of thought to individual issues. 

Why people choose to associate themselves with groups of groupthink is beyond me but hey it’s a popular thing to do. 

By natural association I do want the best for my country and enjoy sharing/debating but let’s face it, those with power mostly have money and want more and reward each other sometimes for the good and bad.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

7 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

As I said: "it's up to debate." 

So,

DO NOT STEAL

"its up to debate"....  if you are China

Ummmm, I guess when you grow up in a society where everyone at the top steals whatever they want and no one owns anything other than what your POWER can hold/steal.....  That says more about China's century of humiliation than anything else. 

 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

2 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And everyone else has made it clear what they believe your beliefs are.

Go back and ‘read it if you dare’.

For a second there I thought we could have a restart where you would succinctly state your beliefs in a single post, remove any ambiguity and go from there.

Apparently not.

Ok.

1. I like free trade and open borders.  I don't like authoritarian wannabes.

2.  Donald Trump doesn't like free trade or open borders.  Donald Trump loves power.  

3.  I don't like Trump.

Is that succinct enough? 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

18 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

So,

DO NOT STEAL

"its up to debate"....  if you are China

Ummmm, I guess when you grow up in a society where everyone at the top steals whatever they want and no one owns anything other than what your POWER can hold/steal.....  That says more about China's century of humiliation than anything else. 

 

You know, if we want to talk about morality and stealing, we can discuss the topic of who was living on "American" soil before Europeans came, and what happened to those poor folks.

Or can stick to the dictum: "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself."  I'm fine either way.  

[Zhong Lu + 845]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

The Chinese market is restricted by unfair governmental rules. We are just evening up the rules. Chinese products have greatly benefitted Americans but has now become a great adversary due to their overreach worldwide. They want to be treated as a Third World Country, but are no longer one. 

That is a reasonable position, but I still believe tariffs are the wrong way to go about it.  

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Guest]

Coffee time. 

How are your trades going Zhong?

[Zhong Lu + 845]

I'm out of everything.  Wishy washy.  No confidence and too choppy. No money made or lost.  Stalking UGAZ and DGAZ forums.  Feeling apathetic.  

EDIT: If natty holds its gains into Tuesday morning, DGAZ is worth a one or two day swing before buying and holding UGAZ.  Honestly I just want it to dip a bit for an entry point into long natural gas.  

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Guest]

yep few things I'm watching been bit weird since the Asian opens, was bit dead before that with this Labour Day nonsense   

[Zhong Lu + 845]

If you have anything interesting to watch, I'm happy to hear it.  

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

42 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

You know, if we want to talk about morality and stealing, we can discuss the topic of who was living on "American" soil before Europeans came, and what happened to those poor folks.

Or can stick to the dictum: "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself."  I'm fine either way.  

You can take just about anywhere on the planet and whoever is there now, wasn’t there 1000 years ago. It’s really is just a matter of how far back in history you want to go.

You allude to the idea that American Indians were the only people living on the present North American continent. What you miss is that this was not a homogenous group of individuals, but a variety of individual tribes who warred with each other and displaced each other continuously.

What happened to the Anasazi?

If you follow this line of reasoning, the ‘white folks’ were simply the latest ‘tribe’ in the mix.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

56 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

Ok.

1. I like free trade and open borders.  I don't like authoritarian wannabes.

2.  Donald Trump doesn't like free trade or open borders.  Donald Trump loves power.  

3.  I don't like Trump.

Is that succinct enough? 

Succinct enough.

Are you saying that you support open borders in regards to unfettered immigration?

[Zhong Lu + 845]

5 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

You can take just about anywhere on the planet and whoever is there now, wasn’t there 1000 years ago. It’s really is just a matter of how far back in history you want to go.

You allude to the idea that American Indians were the only people living on the present North American continent. What you miss is that this was not a homogenous group of individuals, but a variety of individual tribes who warred with each other and displaced each other continuously.

What happened to the Anasazi?

If you follow this line of reasoning, the ‘white folks’ were simply the latest ‘tribe’ in the mix.

I agree with you.  Which is why I try not to judge.  "Judge not," etc. etc.  

Was China "stealing?" It's a matter of debate.  However, regardless of what you think of the morality, I think  it's pretty clear to everyone that the US administration isn't happy about it.  

Debates over morality in international politics is pointless.  They never get anywhere.  The more important question is always: but now that all that shi- has already happened, what to do now? 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

5 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Succinct enough.

Are you saying that you support open borders in regards to unfettered immigration?

Yeah. I recognize I am an extremist on this topic, even more so than the Democrats, so if you want to call me out on it, go ahead, but as I said earlier my beliefs skew libertarian.  

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

https://www.barrons.com/articles/manufacturing-jobs-us-renaissance-51550431098

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 hour ago, Zhong Lu said:

I agree with you.  Which is why I try not to judge.  "Judge not," etc. etc.  

Was China "stealing?" It's a matter of debate.  However, regardless of what you think of the morality, I think  it's pretty clear to everyone that the US administration isn't happy about it.  

Debates over morality in international politics is pointless.  They never get anywhere.  The more important question is always: but now that all that shi- has already happened, what to do now? 

Lu,

Do you remember the successful offshore methane hydrate well that the Chinese drilled offshore China a couple of years ago? A colleague of mine designed that well. The Chinese hired him as a consulting Drilling Engineer. Once he arrived in-country and got settled in, they demanded to copy the hard drive on his personal laptop as they believed that anything which he utilised while in China, under contract, belonged to them.

He never allowed them to do this as he had work on the hard drive which was proprietary to other firms he had been under contract to. Nevertheless, the intent was to ‘steal’ intellectual property.

As an aside, the well was successful but the Chinese media never mentioned that a qweilo had designed the well.

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

2 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Yeah. I recognize I am an extremist on this topic, even more so than the Democrats, so if you want to call me out on it, go ahead, but as I said earlier my beliefs skew libertarian.  

So, are you saying that anyone should be allowed to enter any country, for any reason, legally or otherwise?

If so, why does China send back North Koreans who escape into China? Knowing full well they are condemning them to a ‘re-education camp’ or worse.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

Just now, Douglas Buckland said:

If so, why does China send back North Koreans who escape into China? Knowing full well they are condemning them to a ‘re-education camp’ or worse.

Definitely "worse."  Might as well be dead and beat the system, you already know you are in for decades of hurt. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

If you have anything interesting to watch, I'm happy to hear it. 

I trade commodities, indices, the odd fx, but no equities, so probably not of much interest. Feel free to join Technical Analysis thread.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

7 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

So, are you saying that anyone should be allowed to enter any country, for any reason, legally or otherwise?

If so, why does China send back North Koreans who escape into China? Knowing full well they are condemning them to a ‘re-education camp’ or worse.

Labor.  The Chinese have enough of it, which is why their manufacturing costs are low.  The US needs more of it.  

Google search "labor shortage manufacturing US."  There's a broad consensus that there isn't enough of it.  

Trump shitting on immigration is another example of how his own policies are sabotaging themselves.  Trump wants manufacturing to take off in America again? Then America needs more immigration, undocumented or otherwise.  If America doesn't get immigration, in twenty years its economy looks like Japan's.  

In regards to North Korea, the Chinese have agreements with them to return refugees.  And they only return some of them, some of the time, not all.  Plenty of North Koreans living in China right now.  Depends on mood between the two countries, really.  Always better to immigrate to China when the two countries are pissed off at one another.  Think of it as a "friendly" agreement between one authoritarian government and another.  

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/survey-us-manufacturing-activity-contracted-141829899.html

WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. factory activity shrank in August for the first time since August 2016, a sign that the trade war with China is weighing down a crucial sector of the economy.

The Institute for Supply Management, an association of purchasing managers, said Tuesday that its manufacturing index slid to 49.1 last month, from 51.2 in July. Any reading below 50 signals a contraction. That's the lowest for the index since January 2016.

A global softening in demand, worsened by an increasingly high-risk trade war between the U.S. and China, appears to be hurting American manufacturers. More than half of the public comments from companies surveyed by ISM pointed to economic uncertainty as a drag on their businesses.

Investors were dismayed by the news. Stock prices, which had already fallen at the market's open, dropped further after the report's release. The Dow Jones Industrial Average slumped 389 points, or 1.5%, in morning trading.

A measure of production declined by 1.3 points. Factories are also cutting jobs for the first time since September 2016, as the employment index fell 4.3 points to 47.4. A measure of new orders fell by 3.6 percentage points, a sign that output may continue to decline.

Surveys of purchasing managers this week have suggested that the uncertainty generated by the trade war has hit manufacturers on a global scale. While surveys of purchasing managers showed mixed results in China, manufacturing activity declined across Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea. In Europe, German manufacturing activity remained close to July's seven-year low, as new orders fell, producers scaled back output, and job losses rose steeply.

Meanwhile, a new round of tariffs on Chinese goods started Sunday, in the latest escalation of the trade war between Washington and Beijing.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

And here I was thinking that technology was replacing manual labor and we’d all be out of work in 10 years...no immigration required.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

12 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And here I was thinking that technology was replacing manual labor and we’d all be out of work in 10 years...no immigration required.

Technology does not replace manual labor, with the exception of retail cashiers.  Technology replaces high-priced labor, because that is where you get the best return on the expensive technology machinery. 

You get displacement at the retail level simply because those large employers, i.e. the "big box" stores, cannot ind enough employees that can pass the drug test.  If the employer is running a large retail store, such as a Target Store or a Home Depot, you will find these automated checkout lanes with those fancy machines not because of some desire to save on payroll, but to make it possible to operate at all.  those stores get lost of applicants, but most flunk out because they fail the drug test for narcotics use  (in the USA at least).  So very expensive technology is developed to replace a low-wage worker.  The alternative is very long lines at check-out, and frustrated customers.

Why not hire some people who do drugs and let it slide?  Because inventory shrinkage is the single biggest loss factor in operating a retail store.  Shrinkage is a polite name for theft.  Easily 1% of all stock is stolen by employees.  Those employees will steal to get more money for more drugs.  So the Drug Test is intended to reduce inventory shrinkage.  

The public has this idea the the big hit to stores is shoplifting.  Yes, that is a hit, but still less than employee theft out the back door.  Food for reflective thought. 

Because manual labor is cheap labor, it will be the last form of labor that will be replaced by machines, unless the labor class is simply not available.  The area now getting attention in the technology department is farm labor, because the workforce cannot be found.  More very expensive machines have to be bought, because otherwise the dairy cows go un-milked and the almonds go un-picked. The jobs previously done by the Mexicans - hey, go spend $200,000 for a robot. Gets expensive fast.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And here I was thinking that technology was replacing manual labor and we’d all be out of work in 10 years...no immigration required.

The desire to find technology to replace workers is driven by the lack of workers.  Consider: which countries put the most money into robotics?

Answer: Japan, US, and Germany, all with low birthrates.  

Here's an idea: cut Social Security, cut Medicare, cut food stamps and all other forms of welfare, eliminate minimum wage, and replace it all with universal basic income no strings attached of 1200 dollars for every legal immigrant and citizen in the US above the age of 16.  So that way when illegal immigrants come in, they get no social welfare. None. What they would get however is the 14th amendment, which guarantees their children born in the US the right to get that universal basic income, and the right to work and prove themselves to live in the US.  

Makes everyone happy.  Suddenly you've got a labor force in the US that's willing to work for cheap.  And the cuts to social welfare ain't so bad for everyone else if they're getting 1200 dollars a month.  In case you're wondering if this is going to increase the deficit, it won't because medicare and social security is already eating up so much money that if they're eliminated entirely, we'll have the money for universal basic income.  It won't be any more socialist than the system we have right now. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu