It's Not the Job of the Government to Dictate Where Businesses Should Go

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

54 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Technology does not replace manual labor, with the exception of retail cashiers.  Technology replaces high-priced labor, because that is where you get the best return on the expensive technology machinery. 

You get displacement at the retail level simply because those large employers, i.e. the "big box" stores, cannot ind enough employees that can pass the drug test.  If the employer is running a large retail store, such as a Target Store or a Home Depot, you will find these automated checkout lanes with those fancy machines not because of some desire to save on payroll, but to make it possible to operate at all.  those stores get lost of applicants, but most flunk out because they fail the drug test for narcotics use  (in the USA at least).  So very expensive technology is developed to replace a low-wage worker.  The alternative is very long lines at check-out, and frustrated customers.

Why not hire some people who do drugs and let it slide?  Because inventory shrinkage is the single biggest loss factor in operating a retail store.  Shrinkage is a polite name for theft.  Easily 1% of all stock is stolen by employees.  Those employees will steal to get more money for more drugs.  So the Drug Test is intended to reduce inventory shrinkage.  

The public has this idea the the big hit to stores is shoplifting.  Yes, that is a hit, but still less than employee theft out the back door.  Food for reflective thought. 

Because manual labor is cheap labor, it will be the last form of labor that will be replaced by machines, unless the labor class is simply not available.  The area now getting attention in the technology department is farm labor, because the workforce cannot be found.  More very expensive machines have to be bought, because otherwise the dairy cows go un-milked and the almonds go un-picked. The jobs previously done by the Mexicans - hey, go spend $200,000 for a robot. Gets expensive fast.

Well, didn’t robots replace assembly workers in the automotive industry? Yes, $200,000 grand a pop is expensive, but how long does it take to pay back. Furthermore, wouldn’t this lead to less union intervention?

[ronwagn + 6,290]

23 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

That is a reasonable position, but I still believe tariffs are the wrong way to go about it.  

What is the best way, in your opinion?

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

So you cut social security and Medicare to the older, retired group who have paid into them their entire working life?

[Zhong Lu + 845]

1.  Pass a law to force Chinese businesses, if they want to sell stuff to the US, to give up their trade secrets.  Encourage the Europeans and everyone else to do the same.  What goes around, comes around.  And I prefer the open sharing of technology and goods, rather than the opposite.  

2.  Set up a fund for government investment in critical technologies like 5g, and throw money at the companies working on these technologies, so they're not at a competitive disadvantage with Huawei.

3.  Set up trade alliances with other countries (kinda like the TPP).  Instead of setting up tariffs on Chinese goods, use a reverse tariff where companies that export to the US that come from countries the US likes to get money or tax breaks for their exports.  

#3 would be a good idea to get areas like Vietnam, Africa, and the Philippines into the manufacturing game.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

6 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

So you cut social security and Medicare to the older, retired group who have paid into them their entire working life?

On the flip side there's a good chance that the people who are paying into social security and Medicare today won't get the benefits when they're old.  

Fine: for older people over 65 give them an extra 1000 dollars/month to match whatever it is they're getting from social security/medicare. Temporarily, for maybe the next 20 years.  Then cut that out entirely.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Also, if you can increase manufacturing in Mexico through, for example a reverse tariff,  this means more jobs there, and less Hispanic immigration to the US.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[ronwagn + 6,290]

17 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

So you cut social security and Medicare to the older, retired group who have paid into them their entire working life?

Social Security has was already cut drastically when it became subject to income tax, under Nixon I believe. The first thing to cut would be all the add on programs and the earned income tax refunds.

Edited September 4, 2019 by ronwagn

[Zhong Lu + 845]

No problem.  Cut them.  Use it to pay for Universal Basic Income.  Cut as much of the existing social net as possible, and just shovel that money into people's faces and let them spend it how they like.  No more food stamps, welfare, etc.  Instead every citizen/legal immigrant gets a monthly chunk of money and if they waste it, well that's their own damned fault.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

1 hour ago, Zhong Lu said:

No problem.  Cut them.  Use it to pay for Universal Basic Income.  Cut as much of the existing social net as possible, and just shovel that money into people's faces and let them spend it how they like.  No more food stamps, welfare, etc.  Instead every citizen/legal immigrant gets a monthly chunk of money and if they waste it, well that's their own damned fault.  

Good thing that money grows on trees. 

Otherwise, who exactly would pay for this Universal Basic Income.  Also know as Socialism.  Money for Nothing.  Free stuff for everyone, and nobody pays for it.

Like a perpetual energy machine, what could possibly go wrong?

 

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

You beat me to it Tom...😂

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Zhong Lu said:

1.  Pass a law to force Chinese businesses, if they want to sell stuff to the US, to give up their trade secrets.

That you would say this indicates that you have no understanding of how American Law has evolved and how it works. This idea is not within the parameters of US Law.  Cannot be done.  You simply do not grasp the concept of "equal protection under the law."

1 hour ago, Zhong Lu said:

2.  Set up a fund for government investment in critical technologies like 5g, and throw money at the companies working on these technologies

Additional to not grasping US law, you evidently do not understand the Rules that are foundation for the World trade Organization (WTO).  What you suggest is forbidden by the WTO. 

1 hour ago, Zhong Lu said:

3.  Instead of setting up tariffs on Chinese goods, use a reverse tariff where companies that export to the US that come from countries the US likes to get money or tax breaks for their exports.  

This idea is forbidden under the WTO.  Now you are suggesting that members of the WTO should go discriminate against the trade goods of specific other members.  The world does not work that way. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Jan van Eck
typing error

[Zhong Lu + 845]

30 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Good thing that money grows on trees. 

Otherwise, who exactly would pay for this Universal Basic Income.  Also know as Socialism.  Money for Nothing.  Free stuff for everyone, and nobody pays for it.

Like a perpetual energy machine, what could possibly go wrong?

You're missing on the idea.  You cut social programs to pay for UBI.  I.e. replace the existing Medicare and SS programs, which everyone agrees is ALREADY going bankrupt with UBI.

The current medicare and social security thing and welfare and all that is ALREADY socialism.  I.e. UBI is no more socialist then what is already here.  It's less so, because it's no longer the govt choosing where the money goes.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

6 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

That you would say this indicates that you have no understanding of how American Law has evolved and how it works. This idea is not within the parameters of US Law.  Cannot be done.  You simply do not grasp the concept of "eaual protectin under the law."

Additional to not grasping US law, you evidently do not understand the Rules that are foundation for the World trade Organization (WTO).  What you suggest is forbidden by the WTO. 

This idea is forbidden under the WTO.  Now you are suggesting that members of the WTO should go discriminate against the trade goods of specific other members.  The world does not work that way. 

Now, see this is the paradox.  On one hand, Trump supporters are against international organizations and "globalism."  On the other hand, Trump supporters mention the WTO in support of their arguments whenever possible.  So I'm confused.  I'd like to put it up to a vote for anyone who voted for Trump in the last election.  Is the WTO a good thing or a bad thing? 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Well, didn’t robots replace assembly workers in the automotive industry? 

No.  Your typical auto plant runs of the labor of thousands of auto workers. 

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Yes, $200,000 grand a pop is expensive, but how long does it take to pay back.

The payback window is indefinite. Robots are not installed for that reason.  the industry uses robot when the task is hot, hard, or heavy.  Thus robots lift heavy items, they do work that is positionally difficult (such as body assembly welding), and in paint booths where the work would risk inhaling fumes, and requires exactingly smooth layup. 

 

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Furthermore, wouldn’t this lead to less union intervention?

No.  The auto union is there either way.  Having the Union helps the industry, as the union instills both discipline and order into the workforce scene.  You can argue that the real problem inside the workplace is that of management, not the assembly workers. 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

The other paradox is this: people are always complaining about socialism this or socialism that.  But the existing system, where the govt funnels money to the old and the poor through medicare, SS, and welfare, is ALREADY socialism.  

Also, people say "money don't grow on trees."  And yet here we are in 2019, where the US has a 1 TRILLION DOLLAR deficit (or getting there) and God knows what for the national debt.  Seems to me that as long as people buy Treasuries, money DOES grow on trees (as long as it's certified by the US Treasury).  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

On the other hand, Trump supporters mention the WTO in support of their arguments whenever possible.  So I'm confused.

You fail to recognize that I am not a Trump Supporter.  No stickers on my cars and no Hats on my head.  Sorry. Makes no real difference to me if he is In or Out;  I remain a committed Monarchist. 

I am left with the impression that you really do not understand how the world works.  It assuredly does not work the way you would imagine it works. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Take a look at Harley Davidson and the position they are now in and tell me that the unions are not part of the problem.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Pft, insults, Jan. Seems like that's all you're good for.

Each side shits on one another, and very little happens.  It's an apt description of politics everywhere.  

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

Just now, Douglas Buckland said:

Take a look at Harley Davidson and the position they are now in and tell me that the unions are not part of the problem.

I cannot speak intelligently about the H-D company or the dynamics of that workforce.  That said, I was under the impression that the majority of their manufacturing was done outside the USA. The union there might well be part of their problem.  On the other hand, the managers might also be a part of the problem.  And that is especially true if the managers are doctrinaire.  The whole key to being a good manager is to be able to adapt to challenging circumstances.  Anybody can be a plant manager if all you have to do is fill out Forms all day in a cubicle.  Managing is dealing with real problems and real people when they are in a dynamic situation. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

6 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

The other paradox is this: people are always complaining about socialism this or socialism that.  But the existing system, where the govt funnels money to the old and the poor through medicare, SS, and welfare, is ALREADY socialism.  

Also, people say "money don't grow on trees."  And yet here we are in 2019, where the US has a 1 TRILLION DOLLAR deficit (or getting there) and God knows what for the national debt.  Seems to me that as long as people buy Treasuries, money DOES grow on trees (as long as it's certified by the US Treasury).  

 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

The Emperor has No Clothes.  

Here you are complaining about socialism, but the moment someone wants to take some of your govt given money away, you say "no."

Guess what happens when everyone acts this way? 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

3 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

Pft, insults, Jan. Seems like that's all you're good for.

Well, you are the man who shows up here with ideas that have no grounding in reality.  From that I make the sober observation that you do not grasp how the world is interlocked.  And now you castigate me and say that I am "insulting."  I have to conclude that you are living in an altered mental state. And that's fine;  all kinds of people have gone through life like that.  Hey, Leon Trotsky was like that.  Being in an altered mental state has a long, a proud, and a fine tradition.  So you are in great company.  

But at the end of the day, you still have no grasp of how the world works.  Enjoy.

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Again, Jan, you're just proving my point that you're full of shit.  

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 minute ago, Douglas Buckland said:

 

I'm stealing this!  Man, that is seriously great stuff.  Kudos!   Wry humor is always the best.  

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Wry humor is overrated.  Always better to just punch them in the face.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu