Yawn... Parliament Poised to Force Brexit Delay Until Jan. 31

[Guest]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-02/rebels-draw-up-plans-as-johnson-threatens-revenge-brexit-update?srnd=premium-europe

 

'' Boris Johnson will host his Conservative colleagues at a drinks reception on Monday evening ahead of a statement to Parliament on Tuesday, his spokesman James Slack told reporters. Slack said it would be “entirely unreasonable” for members of Parliament -- who rejected Theresa May’s deal three times -- to bind the prime minister’s hands by blocking a no-deal Brexit just as he goes into fresh negotiations with the EU. It’s another warning to potential Conservative rebels after they were threatened with deselection if they break ranks. Johnson himself voted against May’s deal.''

Edited September 3, 2019 by Guest
addition

[Guest]

So looks like EU now holds all the cards. Well done guys. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Guest

[Zhong Lu + 845]

As a matter of fact, it is democracy in action.  

[Guest]

Leave won the vote. 3 years ago. So bored of this shit honestly. 

How is it viewed outside UK? Like the circus it is?

Edited September 4, 2019 by Guest

[Zhong Lu + 845]

The US has its own concerns.  Gun violence is currently topping the list.  Honestly, for us your entire parliamentary system is confusing so most of us don't know what to make of it.  The idea that one dude can sit on one side aisle one day and another side of the aisle on the next day sounds really weird to us.  The only thing I can conclude is that referendums on issues split 50-50 doesn't resolve anything and that the best national policy is to stay away from them, and go and fix something else that everyone agrees on.  

In Britain's case, this advice may already be too late.  But for the future it should be considered.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

The idea that one dude can sit on one side aisle one day and another side of the aisle on the next day sounds really weird to us. 

Here too. It's just a joke. 

 

10 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

go and fix something else that everyone agrees on.  

You've seen parliament footage yeah lol?  Like bunch of kids. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

30 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Leave won the vote. 3 years ago. So bored of this shit honestly. 

How is it viewed outside UK? Like the circus it is?

It’s a bit confusing to us outside the fishbowl.

A referendum was put forward and voted on. The majority WHO VOTED wanted to leave the EU.

Apparently a few days later, those who didn’t bother to vote found out the result was not what they wanted and have been obstructing things ever since.

Now, if the government caves to the ‘stay in the EU’ crowd, this will indicate that a vote in the UK is not binding....and that the results in any future voting can always be challenged. This will ensure that nothing will ever be resolved in a timely manner.

Just my thoughts on the issue...

[Zhong Lu + 845]

"Like a bunch of kids" is not an insult.  We learn most of our socialization techniques as children and to a large extent people never outgrow them.  The dichotomy between "childish behavior" and "adult behavior" is a myth, as almost ALL our behavior, even when we're old, comes from the neural patterns established during childhood.  

Give Donald Trump his due.  Among notable politicians in the West, he understands this concept better than almost anyone else in politics and it is the reason why he was so successful.  He's the loudest voice in the playground.  If only he had the empathy to LEAD, he would have made a great president.  

I understand Boris Johnson believes in Brexit sincerely.  But parliamentary tricks aren't going to work because parliament was designed in such a way that both sides could use dirty tricks on one another.  As a leader it's his job to convince others, and if he can't do that, then it's probably best that nothing happens except endless delay and shittiness.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

and have been obstructing things ever since.

Now, if the government caves to the ‘stay in the EU’ crowd, this will indicate that a vote in the UK is not binding....and that the results in any future voting can always be challenged.

Exactly yes. National vote means nothing it seems. It was leave or remain. Not leave with ton of conditions. There is No Deal? Ok we're off, have fun. People talking of another vote ffs. So will the 2nd one be ignored?! Shall we say best of 3?

Now EU and whole world sees even the government is divided, so EU holds all the cards. This vote kills Johnson's potential discussions with Europe now. Hope not, we'll see. I'm sure there are like 25 more chapters to go just this year. 

 

33 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

As a leader it's his job to convince others

I hear you but they shouldn't need convincing of respecting the vote in the first place Zhong. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 hour ago, DayTrader said:

I hear you but they shouldn't need convincing of respecting the vote in the first place Zhong. 

Yes and no. You can argue that the deal politicians promised (and maybe believed) they could get what was voted on. Now, it seems that deal is not possible. So... 

That said - I think the EU now needs to force brexit if BoJo can't get it done. I think brexit is a terrible idea, but the limbo Europe is currently in is worse... 

[James Regan + 1,776]

The world is indeed round and turns and it seems to be the MO for all to seek protectionist values. We are all slowly but surely “turning to the right” ( as is a good thing because left hand threads are a PITA)

Boris has been cunning and the thought and original wish of a general election (as Corbin wanted) for the left May become a reality, but do they want a GE or by default a new referendum, umm I don’t think so.

The back stop is the only gun that JC (Not Jesus Christ) has in his back pocket, IMO the back stop will be handled easily , we have been through far worse with our Irish brotherhood and managed to work that out.

We will leave on Oct 31st by hook or crook and The UK will prosper sure we will have some teething problems, the E.U. obviously want the UK as a trade partner but we voted to leave the club, so we leave the E.U. and go back to Being an autonomous trading partner with the world.

Boris is the man for the job!

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Just leaving will make the uncertainties of the past 3 years disappear and let the Brit’s finally get back to business. Remaining in limbo doesn’t do anyone any good.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Douglas Buckland
Incomplete

[Guest]

6 hours ago, James Regan said:

IMO the back stop will be handled easily

6 hours ago, James Regan said:

Boris is the man for the job!

4 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Just leaving will make the uncertainties of the past 3 years disappear

 

AGREED

[Zhong Lu + 845]

8 hours ago, DayTrader said:

Exactly yes. National vote means nothing it seems. It was leave or remain. Not leave with ton of conditions. There is No Deal? Ok we're off, have fun. People talking of another vote ffs. So will the 2nd one be ignored?! Shall we say best of 3?

Now EU and whole world sees even the government is divided, so EU holds all the cards. This vote kills Johnson's potential discussions with Europe now. Hope not, we'll see. I'm sure there are like 25 more chapters to go just this year. 

 

I hear you but they shouldn't need convincing of respecting the vote in the first place Zhong. 

The lack of mutual respect is precisely the problem here.  The nature of the debate has both sides feeling like they have to play for all the marbles.  The result is political stalemate.  In the last 3 years Leavers have failed to present a convincing picture to Remainers of how Brexit would benefit them.  Instead both sides appear to be just slinging shi- at one another.  Kinda like in America, too.  So... yeah.  

Again, if everyone's just cheerleading their own group and slinging shi- at the other side, the result is gridlock and nothing happens.  If both sides are being assholes, and a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? Long-lasting political action in democracies requires mutual trust, which seems to be lacking today.  

But I believe Britain will muddle through, regardless of what ultimately happens in Brexit.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

In the last 3 years Leavers have failed to present a convincing picture to Remainers of how Brexit would benefit them. 

They don't have to. They won the vote. 

23 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

But I believe Britain will muddle through, regardless of what ultimately happens in Brexit.  

I agree, just rather it wasn't 'muddling' for years. Get on with it. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Guest

[Zhong Lu + 845]

So why not hold a new one? People in democracies change minds and we change leaders every 3 or 4 years.  Besides, referendums, unlike elections, are not considered as "binding."  If another vote was held today and Leavers win, then even I will support Breexit.  

To Remainers, the fact that Leavers are against another vote shows a lack of confidence in the very democratic norms they profess to support.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Guest]

Why should we have to??!!   Is the second vote more valid then the first?!  If Remain wins you think that's the end of it? Or shall we say best of 3 as I said before?  

[Zhong Lu + 845]

I'm for best of 3.  Let's do another vote this year, and then if the Remainers win this one, in 3 years we do a final vote.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Zhong Lu said:

To Remainers, the fact that Leavers are against another vote shows a lack of confidence in the very democratic norms they profess to support.  

Again, why should there be ANOTHER vote? At what point does the result become valid and respected and followed through?? (which would be a 'democratic norm').

Joking aside, even if there was another, and Leave won again, these same opponents would still do all they could to delay it. Maybe best of 5?

I'm 40, by the time it happens at this rate I'll be dead. 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

Then that's their fault.  If there's another vote and Leavers win, I will support Brexit unconditionally (even if I think it's a horrid decision).  

But I can't speak for them.  As I said, both sides are behaving in shitty ways.  You're right in pointing out that many of them are not very democratic either.  

[Otis11 + 551]

14 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

The US has its own concerns. ...Honestly, for us your entire parliamentary system is confusing

Zhong Lu - where are you from? I seem to recall in a previous thread you claiming Canada as your origin, here it sounds like you're claming the US.

3 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

Then that's their fault.  If there's another vote and Leavers win, I will support Brexit unconditionally (even if I think it's a horrid decision).  

But I can't speak for them.  As I said, both sides are behaving in shitty ways.  You're right in pointing out that many of them are not very democratic either.  

And here it sounds like you're claiming the UK? (If you're not in the UK, why does your 'unconditional support' of Brexit matter?)

 

13 hours ago, DayTrader said:

Exactly yes. National vote means nothing it seems. It was leave or remain. Not leave with ton of conditions. There is No Deal? Ok we're off, have fun. People talking of another vote ffs. So will the 2nd one be ignored?! Shall we say best of 3?

Now EU and whole world sees even the government is divided, so EU holds all the cards. This vote kills Johnson's potential discussions with Europe now. Hope not, we'll see. I'm sure there are like 25 more chapters to go just this year. 

 

I hear you but they shouldn't need convincing of respecting the vote in the first place Zhong. 

That was my immediate reaction upon hearing the news.... they just completely undercut any negotiations. If the EU knows he only has support in the case of a deal, they can give him an absolutely awful deal.

 

[Guest]

Yep.

Not can. 

Will. 

2 minutes ago, Otis11 said:

they can give him an absolutely awful deal.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Guest
addition

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

40 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Yep.  Not can. Will. 

The EU leadership and bureaucrats in Brussels have bigger problems than figuring out some Plan for trade and labor mobility with Britain.  They have to ensure that the price of leaving is so painful that no other sovereign State will bolt.  The format for making it painful would be the American civil war of 1861.  Additional to blockade of the sea ports, bombardment and starvation of the civilian population of Vicksburg, the slaughter at Shiloh, and General Sherman marching through Georgia burning anything and everything right to the ground, and that was the direct punishment for trying to "Leave," the North sent in what were known as "carpetbaggers" as occupying bureaucrats to run the defeated Leavers essentially as Receivers, subjugating the local population into servitude. 

The EU might lose the Southern Rim of countries due to the straight-jacket of the Euro.  If that were to happen, and the Leavers then re-denominate their debt into local currencies, and then devalue those currencies, the big German banks would take a huge hit.  The Leavers cannot be permitted to do that.  So, how to discourage?  Why, just make Britain an example of what happens if you attempt to dump the EU. 

Now Theresa May understood the consequences perfectly well, and while Britain was not a Euro country, it had these millions of outside nationals living there.  The Government of say Poland was not keen on having some 900,000 of its nationals come flooding back; there would be no work for them, and the Government had no realistic means to provide support.  Analogously, there are now some 3.7 million EU nationals living in the UK  (and a ton of other foreigners, and lots of Indian nationals). Prime Minister May thus assured the EU that those foreign nationals could stay, and would not be deported.  Well, that is all very nice, but if the Government changes, then the policies of the precedent government go down the drain with a great big flush.  

And then what?  Is the EU, with its ossified labour markets, able to absorb a flood of 3.7 million "Returnees"?  No chance.  So to make sure that the Southern Rim understood what would happen to them  (including the expulsion of migrant Greeks, Italians, and Spaniards), they have to make an example of Britain.   Does Boris "BoJo" Johnson understand any of that?  I am betting that, with his hubris, he does not grasp the resolve of that European Deep State, and he will totally screw it up. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Jan van Eck

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

They have to ensure that the price of leaving is so painful that no other sovereign State will bolt.

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

So, how to discourage?  Why, just make Britain an example of what happens if you attempt to dump the EU. 

Couldn't agree more Jan. 

4 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

I am betting that, with his hubris, he does not grasp the resolve of that European Deep State, and he will totally screw it up. 

Hoping not, tonight not the greatest start. 

 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

1 hour ago, Otis11 said:

Zhong Lu - where are you from? I seem to recall in a previous thread you claiming Canada as your origin, here it sounds like you're claming the US.

And here it sounds like you're claiming the UK? (If you're not in the UK, why does your 'unconditional support' of Brexit matter?)

 

That was my immediate reaction upon hearing the news.... they just completely undercut any negotiations. If the EU knows he only has support in the case of a deal, they can give him an absolutely awful deal.

 

You got me confused with someone else.  Might have been Enthalpic.  He says "Canada."  

I'm not British, but I am on the Remainer side.  

The EU wasn't planning to deal with him anyways over the Irish thing (they seem pretty stubborn about it), and Boris Johnson had no real desire to negotiate.  Boris Johnson was perfectly happy with a No Deal Breexit.  He was trying to force it, and the other side called his bluff.

These claims are just for political points and preaching to the choir.  No one on the other side believes it.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Zhong Lu