The World of used solar modules is like a TIDAL WAVE now.

[Meredith Poor + 895]

https://johnssolarblog.com/f/the-world-of-used-solar-modules-is-like-a-tidal-wave-now

For various reasons, panels from utility solar farms become 'surplus' and are available to smaller scale users. Some of it is due to 'act of God' damage such as tornadoes or hail, some of it due to replacement of lower efficiency panels with higher efficiency panels. Some panels are removed from homes due to warranty issues, often the warranty problems have to do with installation, and aren't related to the quality of the panels themselves.

[James Regan + 1,776]

In Brasil they just cut them down and rob the batteries and panels.

https://g1.globo.com/rio-de-janeiro/noticia/roubos-deixam-cemiterio-de-postes-no-arco-metropolitano.ghtml

Title- Rio- Theft leaves a cemetery of lamp posts on the Rio Ring Road.

Sorry its in Portuguese but you will get the message its shocking.

It looked like this a year or two ago after Millions of Dollars taken in Bribes and the setting up of the system that sent the Governor to Jail, and left Rio bankrupt.

 

[markslawson + 1,057]

14 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

https://johnssolarblog.com/f/the-world-of-used-solar-modules-is-like-a-tidal-wave-now

For various reasons, panels from utility solar farms become 'surplus' and are available to smaller scale users. Some of it is due to 'act of God' damage such as tornadoes or hail, some of it due to replacement of lower efficiency panels with higher efficiency panels. Some panels are removed from homes due to warranty issues, often the warranty problems have to do with installation, and aren't related to the quality of the panels themselves.

Another example of how subsidies in this area can lead to considerable waste. High quality panels are being thrown away. The fact that no value is placed on them, or negative value (after deducting delivery costs) probably means that they don't have any value. Sure you can scavenge them and get a few more years of life from them (PV panels usually last about 15 years or so, as I understand it) but just how much value that will generate depends on the local grid regulations/subsidies. Then you have to dispose of them (proper disposal is becoming an issue). Interesting maybe, but better if you can also scavenge a battery..  

[remake it + 288]

1 hour ago, markslawson said:

Another example of how subsidies in this area can lead to considerable waste. High quality panels are being thrown away. The fact that no value is placed on them, or negative value (after deducting delivery costs) probably means that they don't have any value. Sure you can scavenge them and get a few more years of life from them (PV panels usually last about 15 years or so, as I understand it) but just how much value that will generate depends on the local grid regulations/subsidies. Then you have to dispose of them (proper disposal is becoming an issue). Interesting maybe, but better if you can also scavenge a battery..  

Some people take the time to read a post and its link to understand what it means, rather than make assumptions about what it is not about, aside from not checking simple details.

[Meredith Poor + 895]

8 hours ago, markslawson said:

(PV panels usually last about 15 years or so, as I understand it) 

PV lifespan is considerably higher than 15 years, although there is deterioration over time. The original Bell Labs solar cell quit working very quickly, the second one (made in 1953) and encapsulated, is still producing power, although at .6% efficiency.

Warranties are typically for 25 years. Realistic lifespan is closer to 50 years, although by that time the panels might be producing half or 1/3rd of their original output rating.

[markslawson + 1,057]

15 hours ago, remake it said:

Some people take the time to read a post and its link to understand what it means, rather than make assumptions about what it is not about, aside from not checking simple details.

 

7 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

PV lifespan is considerably higher than 15 years, although there is deterioration over time. The original Bell Labs solar cell quit working very quickly, the second one (made in 1953) and encapsulated, is still producing power, although at .6% efficiency.

Guys go back and look at the material linked, especially remake. The material you link says 10-15 years for ordinary PVs.. look down the bottom..Fifteen years is the lifespan normally quoted for commercial installations but, okay, 25 years or so for the good ones, which would be much more expensive than the free ones being given away. You can't quote performance figures for expensive PVs and apply them to the free panels. As I said if they are so good why are they being given away? Answer: because they have no value. Leave it with you.

[Meredith Poor + 895]

4 minutes ago, markslawson said:

As I said if they are so good why are they being given away? Answer: because they have no value. Leave it with you.

The link points out that panels with broken glass are given away. Replacing the glass is more expensive what the panel would be worth if it was repaired.

Solar can be purchased from reputable installers for $2 to $4 per watt, depending on circumstances. More expensive is rooftop solar, cheaper is racks on the ground. People willing to do it themselves with no warranty can get solar very cheaply, just as long as they take personal responsibility for the installation. Most mortgage companies/homeowners insurance companies won't tolerate DIY solar integrated into a habitable residence. They want such work done by a licensed and insured installer, with manufacturer's warranties. This has a lot to do with why used panels are cheap, regardless of how well they work and how efficient they are.

[remake it + 288]

6 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

Guys go back and look at the material linked, especially remake. The material you link says 10-15 years for ordinary PVs.. look down the bottom..Fifteen years is the lifespan normally quoted for commercial installations but, okay, 25 years or so for the good ones, which would be much more expensive than the free ones being given away. You can't quote performance figures for expensive PVs and apply them to the free panels. As I said if they are so good why are they being given away? Answer: because they have no value. Leave it with you.

You have confused the "warranty period" with actual lifespan, so please take more time to understand what you're responding to.

Edited September 30, 2019 by remake it
make it "re"

[markslawson + 1,057]

23 hours ago, remake it said:

You have confused the "warranty period" with actual lifespan, so please take more time to understand what you're responding to.

I haven't confused anything. You're clutching at straws to make your original correction of me work. The point was that they don't guarantee ordinary PVs beyond 10-15 years for good reason - they start to fail. Remember I'm talking about a commercial installation, not a private one where, indeed, the PV may be kept in service for long past the original warranty date.. for commercial projects 15 years to the accept lifespan. Now I will leave it with you.

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 9/30/2019 at 10:22 AM, Meredith Poor said:

The link points out that panels with broken glass are given away. Replacing the glass is more expensive what the panel would be worth if it was repaired.

Solar can be purchased from reputable installers for $2 to $4 per watt, depending on circumstances. More expensive is rooftop solar, cheaper is racks on the ground. People willing to do it themselves with no warranty can get solar very cheaply, just as long as they take personal responsibility for the installation. Most mortgage companies/homeowners insurance companies won't tolerate DIY solar integrated into a habitable residence. They want such work done by a licensed and insured installer, with manufacturer's warranties. This has a lot to do with why used panels are cheap, regardless of how well they work and how efficient they are.

Well, okay, I'm not against any of this but, if I understand your post, the cheap stuff is for the DIY market so a smart person can make something out of nothing, provided he doesn't want the work insured.. sure. But you're talking about a small section of the market. The rooftop market was created to win votes/make the government seem to be doing something, and only a fraction of that would comprise people able to build their own solar farms.. anyway this time I will leave it with you.. 

[remake it + 288]

47 minutes ago, markslawson said:

I haven't confused anything. You're clutching at straws to make your original correction of me work. The point was that they don't guarantee ordinary PVs beyond 10-15 years for good reason - they start to fail. Remember I'm talking about a commercial installation, not a private one where, indeed, the PV may be kept in service for long past the original warranty date.. for commercial projects 15 years to the accept lifespan. Now I will leave it with you.

You clearly failed to distinguish a product's warranty from its lifespan - is it only you who does not know? -  and also failed to appreciate that efficiencies and degradation are the main reasons commercial operations turnover panels.

[NickW + 2,714]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 5:25 PM, Meredith Poor said:

https://johnssolarblog.com/f/the-world-of-used-solar-modules-is-like-a-tidal-wave-now

For various reasons, panels from utility solar farms become 'surplus' and are available to smaller scale users. Some of it is due to 'act of God' damage such as tornadoes or hail, some of it due to replacement of lower efficiency panels with higher efficiency panels. Some panels are removed from homes due to warranty issues, often the warranty problems have to do with installation, and aren't related to the quality of the panels themselves.

I've bought second hand panels that were surplus following a solar farm upgrade and they were fine. A couple of small scratches only and performing near on where I would be expecting them to in the conditions tested.

As you say the tidal wave is coming.

Grid tie inverters have massively fallen in cost as scale of production has grown exponentially.

 

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, remake it said:

You clearly failed to distinguish a product's warranty from its lifespan - is it only you who does not know? -  and also failed to appreciate that efficiencies and degradation are the main reasons commercial operations turnover panels.

Welcome to the world of anti renewable tosh.

This is one of their favourites when it comes to wind turbines which in most cases will run for 30-40 years. The reason they are often replaced is that its easier to up power an existing site than get planning consent for a new one. The older smaller turbines then get redeployed on industrial estates / large farm operations etc where the power is used directly. My wifes firm has a 500KW model that supplies power directly. on the few occasions they don't need the power its diverted to a heat dump and stored as heat (which they use a lot of) .

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, markslawson said:

I haven't confused anything. You're clutching at straws to make your original correction of me work. The point was that they don't guarantee ordinary PVs beyond 10-15 years for good reason - they start to fail. Remember I'm talking about a commercial installation, not a private one where, indeed, the PV may be kept in service for long past the original warranty date.. for commercial projects 15 years to the accept lifespan. Now I will leave it with you.

The anti corrosion warranty on our second car (runabout) is 10 years. The car is 13 years old but it hasn't collapsed into a heap of rust and is still perfectly functional as a car. In fact it was MOT'd last month with no issues.

Amazing that.....

Try understanding the difference between warranty and lifespan.

 

[markslawson + 1,057]

10 hours ago, NickW said:

Try understanding the difference between warranty and lifespan.

 Nick - I'm not the one you should be reprimanding. It was I fact remakeit and Meredith Poor who tried to equate the two. I pointed out that they were comparing warranties on the wrong panels, then they started complaining that I was confusing warranties and lifespan. For commercial installations 15 years is still the accepted lifespan and that has nothing to do with warranties on offer. Granted they could go longer before performance issues catch up with them and more expensive panels will push out the lifecycle, but for installations out in the open degradation of the panels themselves are just one of a series of problems. Sadly there are many issues with renewables. Anyway, I've become tired of this topic. I only responded to one of your posts because you were a newcomer to this thread. Leave it with you.  

[remake it + 288]

2 hours ago, markslawson said:

It was I fact remakeit and Meredith Poor who tried to equate the two. I pointed out that they were comparing warranties on the wrong panels, then they started complaining that I was confusing warranties and lifespan.  For commercial installations 15 years is still the accepted lifespan and that has nothing to do with warranties on offer

Most of your commentary remains untrue as it is YOU who remains unable to understand the difference between a product warranty and a lifespan, given that industry players expect solar panels to be operational well after 20 years and still be  "generating a good amount of electricity 30 – 40 years down the line."

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

Well I don't  give a damn about warranty.  I want a roof.   Instead of buying steel roofing, for same cost of high quality steel roofing, I can now get glass roofing..... with aluminum frames that makes power, but does not "look normal".  Tsch Tsch.  Yes, it is taking me quite a bit of effort to make said roof waterproof, but so far.... ~ok, but early times yet.  Only true expense are the inverters, MPPT controllers, and labor(maintenance washing them pruning trees)

PS: How sad is that there is not a commercial option of turning "unaesthetic" commercial panels into a roof?  It is no harder than putting a roof on a greenhouse which I did in my youth.  Is it because people are scared of TIG/MIG welders and aluminum + butyl rubber?  Honestly. 

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, markslawson said:

 Nick - I'm not the one you should be reprimanding. It was I fact remakeit and Meredith Poor who tried to equate the two. I pointed out that they were comparing warranties on the wrong panels, then they started complaining that I was confusing warranties and lifespan. For commercial installations 15 years is still the accepted lifespan and that has nothing to do with warranties on offer. Granted they could go longer before performance issues catch up with them and more expensive panels will push out the lifecycle, but for installations out in the open degradation of the panels themselves are just one of a series of problems. Sadly there are many issues with renewables. Anyway, I've become tired of this topic. I only responded to one of your posts because you were a newcomer to this thread. Leave it with you.  

We hear the same nonsense about wind turbines. The vast majority of smaller turbines built in the early to mid 1990's are still operating. In some cases they have been moved and replaced with larger more modern turbines (a process called up powering) but the units have a second life often deployed to industrial sites and will likely have lifespans of 30 -40 years