Diplomatic immunity

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/16/politics/harry-dunn-family-white-house-meeting-trump-intl-gbr/index.html 

thougths? I understand the reason for diplomatic immunity, but it does not really seem applicable here? 

[Guest]

Yep bit of a scandal here about it and kinda buried by Brexit

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

In my opinion, diplomatic immunity has become so abused that it is laughable.

Since when does the spouse of a diplomat get immunity? If a diplomat commits a crime in another country (there may be shades of grey here, I am speaking of your usual definition of a crime), then that person should be tried in that country. I can see no rational excuse for this woman not being returned to the UK if she can be guaranteed a fair trial.

The UN in New York is probably the worst offender. Diplomats from all over take diplomatic immunity to cover things like parking violations, soliciting, shoplifting, etc...

Diplomats (not family members) need diplomatic immunity, but only as it applies to their job.

[James Regan + 1,776]

IMO that person committed a crime and should have paid the price, Trump on this one was hunting for a happy story but back fired. It's the UKs fault for driving on the wrong side of the road, even though we did invent roads. This was most definitely a case of abuse of the rules, send her back for the wigged man to pass sentence. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

“even though we did invent roads”

I’m calling bullshit here! 😂

[Guest]

the bit before it was more bullshit than that bit

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

34 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Trump on this one was hunting for a happy

 

5 hours ago, DayTrader said:

Yep bit of a scandal here about it and kinda buried by Brexit

 

4 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Since when does the spouse of a diplomat get immunity? If a diplomat commits a crime in another country (there may be shades of grey here, I am speaking of your usual definition of a crime), then that person should be tried in that country.

As mentioned - I can understand the principles for diplomatic immunity in general. And I can even understand why it is extended to family members - Imagine a Western diplomats teenage kids making, by Western standards, small mistake in SE Asian or ME country. The bit I don't get in this case is

1) if this lady can not be tried in the UK, why can she not be tried in the US for this crime?

2) why is Trump getting involved? And why is he defending her? I don't get it. His moral compass seems way off.

[Guest]

No idea mate, I saw a vague press conference where it was brought up and Trump was almost like ''look, shit happens, it's easily done, driving on wrong side, we've all done it'' kinda stuff, it was awful. This is from our press ...

- - - - - - - - - 

It added she had "fully co-operated with the police". "She spoke with authorities at the scene of the accident and met with the Northampton police at her home the following day. She will continue to co-operate with the investigation," the statement continued.

"Anne would like to meet with Mr Dunn's parents so that she can express her deepest sympathies and apologies for this tragic accident. "We have been in contact with the family's attorneys and look forward to hearing from them."

Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab wrote to Mr Dunn's family on Saturday to explain both the British and US governments now considered Mrs Sacoolas' immunity irrelevant. The letter said: "We have pressed strongly for a waiver of immunity, so that justice can be done... Whilst the US government has steadfastly declined to give that waiver, that is not the end of the matter.

"We have looked at this very carefully... the UK government's position is that immunity, and therefore any question of waiver, is no longer relevant in Mrs Sacoolas's case, because she has returned home. "The US have now informed us that they too consider that immunity is no longer pertinent."

Mark Stephens, a lawyer for the Dunn family said: "She was allowed to, or encouraged to be spirited away on an American transport plane and effectively rendered a fugitive from British justice. "And now of course we find out that she's not entitled to diplomatic immunity, and in those circumstances she is in a foreign land a fugitive from British justice.

"We do hope she returns herself voluntarily and that this was just a bad piece of advice she received from the American authorities."

What is diplomatic immunity?

About 23,000 individuals in the UK have diplomatic immunity, a status reserved for foreign diplomats and their families, as long as they don't have British citizenship. It means that, in theory, they cannot face court proceedings for any crime or civil case.

However, where crimes are committed, the Foreign Office can ask a foreign government to waive immunity. Diplomatic immunity is by no means restricted to those named on the Diplomatic List. Drivers, cooks and other support staff who have been accredited to Britain ("the receiving state") have the same diplomatic status and immunity.

[James Regan + 1,776]

8 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

 

 

As mentioned - I can understand the principles for diplomatic immunity in general. And I can even understand why it is extended to family members - Imagine a Western diplomats teenage kids making, by Western standards, small mistake in SE Asian or ME country. The bit I don't get in this case is

1) if this lady can not be tried in the UK, why can she not be tried in the US for this crime?

2) why is Trump getting involved? And why is he defending her? I don't get it. His moral compass seems way off.

1 She can be tried in the UK, just need to get the dozy twat back to Britain, I could understand if it was a third world country with no legal system and government in Tatters (oh that is the UK at present) If that was a UK citizen he would be on the next Easy Jet heading back.

2 POTUS is in a shit storm and wanted a quick happy story to try and have some positive press but backfired, I dont blame him for trying.

 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 minute ago, James Regan said:

2 POTUS is in a shit storm and wanted a quick happy story to try and have some positive press but backfired, I dont blame him for trying.

I disagree. A mother and father lost their kid and Trump wants to make a show out of it? Seriously? 

I also don't get why the UK does not demand her extradicted. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

I would be willing to bet that there are many other ‘interested parties’, from various places, discussing this diplomatic immunity issue as we speak as however this turns out will in effect set a legal precedent.

I personally would like to see her do the right thing and voluntarily return to the UK.

[James Regan + 1,776]

3 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I disagree. A mother and father lost their kid and Trump wants to make a show out of it? Seriously? 

I also don't get why the UK does not demand her extradicted. 

Not saying I agree with his morale compass, just saying in his position at present, can you blame him for trying to get a happy bit of press.

I agree, she should be sent back to face her charges, we should be demanding she comes back, and face the music, but we always bend over for the yanks

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

6 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I disagree. A mother and father lost their kid and Trump wants to make a show out of it? Seriously? 

I also don't get why the UK does not demand her extradicted. 

You cannot demand extradition if the person has, or had, immunity. That is the issue here.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

"We have looked at this very carefully... the UK government's position is that immunity, and therefore any question of waiver, is no longer relevant in Mrs Sacoolas's case, because she has returned home. "The US have now informed us that they too consider that immunity is no longer pertinent."

Mark Stephens, a lawyer for the Dunn family said: "She was allowed to, or encouraged to be spirited away on an American transport plane and effectively rendered a fugitive from British justice. "And now of course we find out that she's not entitled to diplomatic immunity, and in those circumstances she is in a foreign land a fugitive from British justice.

"We do hope she returns herself voluntarily and that this was just a bad piece of advice she received from the American authorities."

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Guest

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

Just now, Douglas Buckland said:

You cannot demand extradition if the person has, or had, immunity. That is the issue here.

I understand that. And I really get your point about precedent (that is what I hinted at with principles). But immunity can also be waived. Either voluntarily or revoked. 

[remake it + 288]

4 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I disagree. A mother and father lost their kid and Trump wants to make a show out of it? Seriously? 

I also don't get why the UK does not demand her extradicted. 

Such events are governed by the Vienna Convention and while diplomatic immunity does not place diplomats above the law only the sending State has the authority to take action for their transgressions.

[Guest]

 

4 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

and effectively rendered a fugitive from British justice. "And now of course we find out that she's not entitled to diplomatic immunity, and in those circumstances she is in a foreign land a fugitive from British justice.

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

24 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Not saying I agree with his morale compass, just saying in his position at present, can you blame him for trying to get a happy bit of press.

I agree, she should be sent back to face her charges, we should be demanding she comes back, and face the music, but we always bend over for the yanks

...as you should!😂

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, DayTrader said:

and effectively rendered a fugitive from British justice. "And now of course we find out that she's not entitled to diplomatic immunity, and in those circumstances she is in a foreign land a fugitive from British justice.

 

Yes the scandal here is that she claimed diplomatic immunity where there was none granted. She then got onto a transport plane (not a commercial flight) for a quick get away when telling all concerned she was staying in the UK.

 

1 hour ago, DayTrader said:

"We do hope she returns herself voluntarily and that this was just a bad piece of advice she received from the American authorities."

There is zero chance of this happening!

The ironic thing is the Dunn family dont want her to face imprisonment but just to explain what happened face to face.

Both the US and UK governments havent covered themselves with any glory on this one

Edited October 23, 2019 by Rob Plant

[James Regan + 1,776]

1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

She then got onto a transport plane (not a commercial flight) for a quick get away when telling all concerned she was staying in the UK.

Rob, thats the shady part.

A- She knew she was doing wrong by fleeing the country.

B- She had outside help in fleeing, you don't just get on Transport flights, probably out of some shady place like Lakentheath or similar, not sure of the details but it reeks of underhand work.

C-Why would you risk a political nightmare for some toe rag who had just killed a person in a country where that family was  given privilege to stay as a guest under political cover.

D-Sorry but Trumps piss poor excuse that we drive on the wrong side of the road and these things happen all the time is absolute horse-shit, maybe its normal for people who have no clue of their current surroundings at any given time, Europeans come to Britain and vice a versa and we don't have this kind of thing happening all the time as Trump said. Its not Normal to Kill someone and then flee the country under the guise of immunity , you just killed someones kid.

Lets forget National pride etc, she killed a person and ran, and is now being protected by said government, stinks....

Edited October 23, 2019 by James Regan

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

13 minutes ago, James Regan said:

D-Sorry but Trumps piss poor excuse that we drive on the wrong side of the road and these things happen all the time is absolute horse-shit, maybe its normal for people who have no clue of their current surroundings at any given time, Europeans come to Britain and vice a versa and we don't have this kind of thing happening all the time as Trump said. Its not Normal to Kill someone and then flee the country under the guise of immunity , you just killed someones kid.

James couldnt agree more mate.

I drive in Europe (on the wrong side) all the time, never seems to be a problem for me or the millions each year that do.

I think Trump is getting it generally right with economic decisions as he is a business man, but pretty much anything else he just embarrasses himself.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Okay, I think that we all agree that she acted inappropriately and that she, and the US government, should ‘do the right thing’. 
 

Now let me ask you a hypothetical question:

Suppose YOU were in a foreign country and accidentally killed a citizen of that country (a traffic accident, a bar fight that got out of hand, you dropped a flower pot out of your sixth floor apartment window onto the mailman’s head, etc...).

You have, or think you have diplomatic immunity and think you can get on a transport aircraft out of the country to sort it all out later.

How many of you would have turned yourself into the police under this scenario, or hopped the flight?

Keep in mind that you have just accidentally killed someone and would likely not be thinking clearly.

I am NOT defending this woman in the least, I am simply asking an honest question.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Douglas Buckland
Mistype

[James Regan + 1,776]

17 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

James couldnt agree more mate.

I drive in Europe (on the wrong side) all the time, never seems to be a problem for me or the millions each year that do.

I think Trump is getting it generally right with economic decisions as he is a business man, but pretty much anything else he just embarrasses himself.

To be honest I like Trump, but recently he is making a bit of a tool of himself and showing his real personality, it must be hard coming from a corporation where you are King to being King of the Hill but have to answer to other who are clawing  for your blood, different arena all together. He will do well to come through this current spate unharmed or unhinged, lot going on for one man to take onboard without a full time government.

Edited October 23, 2019 by James Regan

[James Regan + 1,776]

4 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Okay, I think that we all agree that she acted inappropriately and that she, and the US government, should ‘do the right thing’. 
 

Now let me ask you a hypothetical question:

Suppose YOU were in a foreign country and accidentally killed a citizen of that country (a traffic accident, a bar fight that got out of hand, you dropped a flower pot out of your sixth floor apartment window onto the mailman’s head, etc...).

You have, or think you have diplomatic immunity and think you can get on a transport aircraft out of the country to sort it all out later.

How many of you would have turned yourself into the police under this scenario, or hopped the flight?

Keep in mind that you have just accidentally killed someone and would likely not be thinking clearly.

I am NOT defending this woman in the least, I am simply asking an honest question.

Douglas- I would have probably got on the flight if I had been in but hole wherever and it had just happened, but she didn't run the same day, she ran weeks after being interviewed by the British Popo.

It was Britain not China or Iraq or KSA she was running away from.

This was a pre meditated flight from a crime.

Edited October 23, 2019 by James Regan

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Doug If I had "accidentally killed someone" (as you say) and it was clear that it was an accident I would be personally devastated, but I can assure you that I would go straight to the police and explain what had happened.

The difference here is that its against the law to drive on the wrong side of the road, as it is in every country in the world, so yes its an accident of sorts but highly preventable. You cannot compare this to accidentally knocking a plant pot of a 6th floor window, that's ludicrous.

The fact she fled the country says she knows this and she should be made to be accountable for her actions.