If You Want ‘Renewable Energy’ - Get Ready to Dig

[El Nikko + 2,145]

Pinched off LinkedIn and made me chuckle

"Building one wind turbine requires 900 tons of steel, 2,500 tons of concrete and 45 tons of plastic." "Fabricating [an EV battery] requires digging up, moving and processing more than 500,000 pounds of raw materials somewhere on the planet." GREEN!

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/if-you-want-renewable-energy-get-ready-to-dig

[PE Scott + 563]

When I started at Halliburton there was a guy in orientation with me who previously serviced windmills for a living. He told me one of the things he hated about it the most was climbing the ladder to service the tower when the motor was leaking many many gallons of hot oil down the ladder. Also, he said they had to change that oil every so often. Who knows where the oil was sourced though, perhaps it was organic whale oil. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

3 hours ago, El Nikko said:

Pinched off LinkedIn and made me chuckle

"Building one wind turbine requires 900 tons of steel, 2,500 tons of concrete and 45 tons of plastic." "Fabricating [an EV battery] requires digging up, moving and processing more than 500,000 pounds of raw materials somewhere on the planet." GREEN!

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/if-you-want-renewable-energy-get-ready-to-dig

Just for giggles do the math on how much CO2 a car emits over it's average lifetime - ignore manufacture and maintenance costs (fluids, oils, tires) for now.

Hint, it is a lot.  Gasoline is 87% carbon and combines with two heavy oxygen atoms....

I'll write out the stoichiometry later if desired.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Enthalpic

[Guest]

Says the guy with a car

#Ethanol #Amish 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Guest

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

8 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Says the guy with a car

#Ethanol #Amish 

Yes, yes, I own a small car.  I'm horrible.

I would be more liked if I owned a large truck and many guns.

[Otis11 + 551]

20 hours ago, DayTrader said:

Says the guy with a car

#Ethanol #Amish 

You can call me crazy, but I, for one, support electric vehicles and renewable energy. Just remove the subsidy.

(And before anyone attacks me for that last statement, I support removal of almost all subsidies as they distort markets. If you want to remove subsidies from the O&G industry, great! Just remove that exact same subsidy from all businesses - because all the subsidies cited in those "O&G industry got $11 trillion, billion, gadrillion in subsidies this year (that's almost $38,261.53/gallon!)" are all normal business tax deductions and credits. Apple gets those too. Make a level playing field with no subsidies and you'll have my support)

For Wind - if someone has a way to profitably purchase all the required material, make a contract with the land owners, haul all the equipment there, set it up, maintain it, and tear it back down, then more power to them. I have no reason to attack them... attack the subsidy that's wasting taxpayer money (of which I pay way too much... but that's because I'm either incredibly privileged or because I work 80 hours/week in the middle of nowhere West Texas and have a very specialized skillset that people will pay me well for - depending on which view you subscribe to).

From my point of view - They use massive amounts of O&G in the extraction and transportation of the raw materials, more in the refinement, yet more in the transportation of that material to a manufacturer, still more making it into the actual parts needs, and then more to move that to where it's needed. Once it's up and running, they then use more to maintain it, and again more in peaker plants burning gas to fill in the gaps. You could argue they use batteries in certain places, but even then it's back to the materials argument. Good for you, great, if you feel that's better than burning the O&G directly for energy, more power to you. I've seen arguments both ways and have my personal opinion on it, but either way, you're going to keep me in business for quite a while.

And when O&G does finally go away, I can adapt... to my next highly lucrative endeavor. There's nothing magical about O&G no mater what position you're in. Lithium Brine will need extracting. So will Cobalt, Nickel, aluminum, maganese, steel, etc. It will all need infrastructure to transport it, facilities to refine it, sale people to sell it, traders to correctly price it and add liquidity, etc. 

And on the electric cars - I feel no need to attack them. If someone wants to make a vehicle that requires thousands of pounds of material to be moved and processed to make their car (which battery requires 63 kg of lithium, 54 kg of graphite, as well as similar amounts of Nickel, and Cobalt, and smaller - but still significant - amounts of Aluminum, and Maganese), and they're willing to pay for it, then be my guest! (I actually really like Tesla's vehicles, but not about to plot down over $100k for the one I want... Full disclosure, I own a fair amount of Tesla Stock, and it has treated me quite well - so please, feel free to go buy one, or another one. Or another 3.)

/rant

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

19 minutes ago, Otis11 said:

You can call me crazy, but I, for one, support electric vehicles and renewable energy. Just remove the subsidy.

SNIP

/rant

If only the greens thought the same way.  No one would have a problem. 

Of course they will not allow us to build a power line to bring in their electricity for their electric cars let alone open a mine and produce product.  Why? The shadow from the sun occluding power line might surprise a desert turtle that is hiding underground during the day.....

Of course then you have the genius thieves in Seattle which used to have a perfectly good no tolls 3 lane highway with downtown exits which they replaced with an uber expensive 2 lane underground tunnel highway with tolls and with No downtown exits and instead want more $$$ from the rest of the state for public transportation(trains) in HILLY Seattle where you CANNOT RUN train tracks!!! 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 11/4/2019 at 6:40 AM, Enthalpic said:

Just for giggles do the math on how much CO2 a car emits over it's average lifetime - ignore manufacture and maintenance costs (fluids, oils, tires) for now.

Hint, it is a lot.  Gasoline is 87% carbon and combines with two heavy oxygen atoms....

I'll write out the stoichiometry later if desired.

How does this relate to what Nikko was discussing? Cars pollute, we get it. Apparently these damn windmills do as well!

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

5 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

How does this relate to what Nikko was discussing? Cars pollute, we get it. Apparently these damn windmills do as well!

Just reminding people that ICE cars have a huge energy "buy in" and then also keep producing a huge amount of waste.

Windmills and electric vehicles - once made - have small footprints.

[SERWIN + 749]

On 11/3/2019 at 4:58 PM, Enthalpic said:

Yes, yes, I own a small car.  I'm horrible.

I would be more liked if I owned a large truck and many guns.

I own a large truck and many guns, but i'm also an a$$h0le and don't really care who "likes" me so....

[butasha + 123]

On 11/3/2019 at 4:58 PM, Enthalpic said:

Yes, yes, I own a small car.  I'm horrible.

I would be more liked if I owned a large truck and many guns.

 

30 minutes ago, SERWIN said:

I own a large truck and many guns, but i'm also an a$$h0le and don't really care who "likes" me so....

I own numerous large trucks, tractors and my wife gets a new Tahoe or other large SUV whenever she feels the need for a new one.

This constant stream of new SUVs for my wife helps me keep my gun safe full of new and old guns. Happy wife happy life lol.

Now the whole asshole thing... Well depends who you ask. Even my lovely wife has been know to address me in this manner from time to time.

[SERWIN + 749]

I love my Suburban!! And I just thought for a while that my name had been changed to Asshole....

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 11/4/2019 at 1:45 PM, Otis11 said:

You can call me crazy, but I, for one, support electric vehicles and renewable energy. Just remove the subsidy.

(And before anyone attacks me for that last statement, I support removal of almost all subsidies as they distort markets. If you want to remove subsidies from the O&G industry, great! Just remove that exact same subsidy from all businesses - because all the subsidies cited in those "O&G industry got $11 trillion, billion, gadrillion in subsidies this year (that's almost $38,261.53/gallon!)" are all normal business tax deductions and credits. Apple gets those too. Make a level playing field with no subsidies and you'll have my support)

For Wind - if someone has a way to profitably purchase all the required material, make a contract with the land owners, haul all the equipment there, set it up, maintain it, and tear it back down, then more power to them. I have no reason to attack them... attack the subsidy that's wasting taxpayer money (of which I pay way too much... but that's because I'm either incredibly privileged or because I work 80 hours/week in the middle of nowhere West Texas and have a very specialized skillset that people will pay me well for - depending on which view you subscribe to).

From my point of view - They use massive amounts of O&G in the extraction and transportation of the raw materials, more in the refinement, yet more in the transportation of that material to a manufacturer, still more making it into the actual parts needs, and then more to move that to where it's needed. Once it's up and running, they then use more to maintain it, and again more in peaker plants burning gas to fill in the gaps. You could argue they use batteries in certain places, but even then it's back to the materials argument. Good for you, great, if you feel that's better than burning the O&G directly for energy, more power to you. I've seen arguments both ways and have my personal opinion on it, but either way, you're going to keep me in business for quite a while.

And when O&G does finally go away, I can adapt... to my next highly lucrative endeavor. There's nothing magical about O&G no mater what position you're in. Lithium Brine will need extracting. So will Cobalt, Nickel, aluminum, maganese, steel, etc. It will all need infrastructure to transport it, facilities to refine it, sale people to sell it, traders to correctly price it and add liquidity, etc. 

And on the electric cars - I feel no need to attack them. If someone wants to make a vehicle that requires thousands of pounds of material to be moved and processed to make their car (which battery requires 63 kg of lithium, 54 kg of graphite, as well as similar amounts of Nickel, and Cobalt, and smaller - but still significant - amounts of Aluminum, and Maganese), and they're willing to pay for it, then be my guest! (I actually really like Tesla's vehicles, but not about to plot down over $100k for the one I want... Full disclosure, I own a fair amount of Tesla Stock, and it has treated me quite well - so please, feel free to go buy one, or another one. Or another 3.)

/rant

Seconded.

On that note, I've never met a person who is "anti-renewables".  Only people who are anti-subsidy or pro-<something important>.  By contrast, renewables advocates seem willing to sacrifice anything to increase renewables.  They'll even sacrifice freedom, national security, and their fellow citizens. 

Renewables advocates are not despised because other people are anti-renewables; they're despised because they're single-minded a**holes. 

[Otis11 + 551]

On 5/3/2020 at 3:43 PM, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Seconded.

On that note, I've never met a person who is "anti-renewables".  Only people who are anti-subsidy or pro-<something important>.  By contrast, renewables advocates seem willing to sacrifice anything to increase renewables.  They'll even sacrifice freedom, national security, and their fellow citizens. 

Renewables advocates are not despised because other people are anti-renewables; they're despised because they're single-minded a**holes. 

So I'm actually very pro renewables... very. And very pro EV. I've worked on solar panels and honestly think they're great... but they need to be financed the same way the Rig down the street is. With private capital. Dont take my money to accomplish your goal, and then demonize the industry I'm currently working in...

 

Anyway,  not to open this can of worms again. I think we're in agreement.

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 5/5/2020 at 9:26 PM, Otis11 said:

So I'm actually very pro renewables... very. And very pro EV. I've worked on solar panels and honestly think they're great... but they need to be financed the same way the Rig down the street is. With private capital. Dont take my money to accomplish your goal, and then demonize the industry I'm currently working in...

 

Anyway,  not to open this can of worms again. I think we're in agreement.

We are in agreement. 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

On 11/3/2019 at 10:45 AM, El Nikko said:

Pinched off LinkedIn and made me chuckle

"Building one wind turbine requires 900 tons of steel, 2,500 tons of concrete and 45 tons of plastic." "Fabricating [an EV battery] requires digging up, moving and processing more than 500,000 pounds of raw materials somewhere on the planet." GREEN!

I don't care about green. I do care about cheap. Wind power, especially in the Midwest, is the least expensive source of electricity today. Offshore wind power will probably be less expensive than onshore because they can build the wind turbines much larger without running into the logistical issue of transporting the blades on roads. 

Solar looks like it will be even less expensive. In ten years it will be common to close fossil fuel electricity generation because it costs more to continue operating that replacing with solar. 

I'm preparing to build a carbon fiber hot rod. Small 4 cyl naturally aspirated engine with light weight is equivalent to a heavy vehicle with lots of forced induction 6 cyl horsepower. But the only way to get my light weight carbon fiber is to soak it in epoxy resin like a wind turbine blade. Point: the goals of greens and non-greens align more frequently than not. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 11/5/2019 at 12:07 PM, Enthalpic said:

Just reminding people that ICE cars have a huge energy "buy in" and then also keep producing a huge amount of waste.

Windmills and electric vehicles - once made - have small footprints.

It’s easy for an EV to have a small footprint....it’s range between charging practically guarantees it!😂

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

2 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

I don't care about green. I do care about cheap. Wind power, especially in the Midwest, is the least expensive source of electricity today. Offshore wind power will probably be less expensive than onshore because they can build the wind turbines much larger without running into the logistical issue of transporting the blades on roads. 

Solar looks like it will be even less expensive. In ten years it will be common to close fossil fuel electricity generation because it costs more to continue operating that replacing with solar. 

I'm preparing to build a carbon fiber hot rod. Small 4 cyl naturally aspirated engine with light weight is equivalent to a heavy vehicle with lots of forced induction 6 cyl horsepower. But the only way to get my light weight carbon fiber is to soak it in epoxy resin like a wind turbine blade. Point: the goals of greens and non-greens align more frequently than not. 

I think that your definition of a ‘hot rod’ is very different from most of us old school guys, and our predecessors who actually coined the term and kept it alive. Just saying....😂

Edited May 15, 2020 by Douglas Buckland

[BradleyPNW + 282]

17 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I think that your definition of a ‘hot rod’ is very different from most of us old school guys, and our predecessors who actually coined the term and kept it alive. Just saying....😂

You're right. It's not a hot rod.