This Battery Uses Up CO2 to Create Energy

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

8 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Jan is great at history and law; science...not so much.

Any take on why this wouldn't work? I know the political challenges etc - am interested in the science. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 minute ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Any take on why this wouldn't work? I know the political challenges etc - am interested in the science. 

I don't even know his plan but it probably helps humans and hurts animals like many other irrigation systems.

Link me to his comment and I'll think about it fairly.

 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 minute ago, Enthalpic said:

I don't even know his plan but it probably helps humans and hurts animals like many other irrigation systems.

Link me to his comment and I'll think about it fairly.

 

It was quite a while ago. 

@Jan van Eck - would you care to recap ? 

[Rob Plant + 2,608]

13 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Jan is great at history and law; science...not so much.

Yep I was wondering how you get a rain forest growing in sand?

I don't see many of them around the world, maybe wait a few million years and bingo!

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

11 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Yep I was wondering how you get a rain forest growing in sand?

 

It can be done but it's basically hydroponics. Drip system at every plant with chemical fertilizers; after a few years the root mass and leaf litter starts creating real soil. 

Once you have established a semi stable area you move the drip system; do enough of these next to each other you can create a micro environment.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Rob Plant + 2,608]

4 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

It can be done but it's basically hydroponics. Drip system at every plant with chemical fertilizers

Agreed 

However the cost on a large acreage would be astronomical and for what payback?? A very small impact on Co2.

Surely its a lot easier and cheaper to just stop the deforestation in existing rain forests like the Amazon.

FYI

"More than 150 acres are lost every minute of every day, and 78 million acres lost every year! More than 20 percent of the Amazon rain forest is already gone, and much more is severely threatened as the destruction continues. It is estimated that the Amazon alone is vanishing at a rate of 20,000 square miles a year."

4.6 million acres of irreplaceable Amazon rain forest burned between Jan 19 - Sep 19 and this is ever increasing year on year (Australian fires have burned 12.35 million acres in total). Every 3 years we burn more of the Amazon than this.

It would be way cheaper to pay the loggers in these areas a healthy salary than start hydroponics in the Sahara

I get Jan's idea but its not practical

If you want to help with reducing Co2 then this needs to stop and quickly! We need to get our heads out of our backsides and put pressure on the Brazil government to stop this immediately. We should also come up with economical solutions for the Brazilian loggers to ensure that the Amazon is protected long term.

Rant over, and I now sound like Sting! God help me!

[Rob Plant + 2,608]

Sorry rant not quite over

Has Greta been to Brazil to meet Jair Bolsonaro?

i don't believe she has, I know he called her a brat, so its probably not on her busy agenda of attacking developed nations.

She should focus some of her efforts here as I don't think anyone can argue its a good idea to destroy rain forests at this rate, I might have a lot more respect for her if she did.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Rob Plant

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

39 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Surely its a lot easier and cheaper to just stop the deforestation in existing rain forests like the Amazon.

You are of course rigth, but my understanding is that it stopping existing deforesting would tackle the issue alone. That's why a cost analysis would be interesting. The Sahara is basically unused land that doesn't really do any good (atleast that I know of). 

I have read scientic articles about mining the moon in order to get material for fusion, but I cannot find any info a project that would basically just be using existing technology. 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

Has Greta been to Brazil to meet Jair Bolsonaro?

i don't believe she has, I know he called her a brat, so its probably not on her busy agenda of attacking developed nations.

it is my understanding that if we could change consumer patterns in West then the market would fix a lot of deforestation etc. So, fundamentally I can understand Greta's (or those guiding her) focus on the West. A few examples

1) Less meat in our diets is not only good for the enviroment, it is also good for our health

2) Demanding that China tackles pollution or the entire civilized world puts tariffs on them. Demand that they live up to Western enviromental manufacturing standards (EU ones as they are way stricter than American) or they cannot trade with us. Demand that they put plastic collection nets at their or they cannot trade with us.. etc. 

Above would like be good the West as well. But obviously it requires hardcore fossil fuel crusaders to have a balanced view, so much more likely to talk about mining the moon... 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[Rob Plant + 2,608]

8 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I cannot find any info a project that would basically just be using existing technology. 

That's because no project would be economically viable in the Sahara Rasmus.

No privately owned company is going to just throw money and resource on a project they know will have no return on investment. For that matter no government should either unless there are significant other benefits to their people. There is no African country rich enough to fund such a project.

The Sahara is growing see attached

https://www.livescience.com/62168-sahara-desert-expanding.html

If we stop the deforestation in the Amazon then this should help with a slowdown on desertification elsewhere ie Sahara

I don't understand why we would tackle an extremely difficult  issue of irrigating the Sahara (which may cause other environmental issues as Enthalpic suggested, such as all the fauna that would live in the rain forest that aren't natural to the area) when we can instantly save 78 million acres of rain forest in the first year??

No pun intended but lets start on the low hanging fruit (easy wins) first.

I remind you 78 million acres!! I'd be very interested if any boffins out there could estimate a rough cost to irrigate 78 million acres of the Sahara via hydroponics. I think the cost would be mind boggling!

[Rob Plant + 2,608]

15 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

it is my understanding that if we could change consumer patterns in West then the market would fix a lot of deforestation etc. So, fundamentally I can understand Greta's (or those guiding her) focus on the West. A few examples

1) Less meat in our diets is not only good for the enviroment, it is also good for our health

2) Demanding that China tackles pollution or the entire civilized world puts tariffs on them. Demand that they live up to Western enviromental standards or they cannot trade with us. Demand that put plastic collection nets at their or they cannot trade with us.. etc. 

Above would like be good the West as well. But obviously it requires hardcore fossil fuel crusaders to have a balanced view, so much more likely to talk about mining the moon... 

 

I don't disagree, greed and waste in the West is certainly a major issue.

I love eating meat though😊

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

5 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

No privately owned company is going to just throw money and resource on a project they know will have no return on investment.

I accept that. 

But this is based on the premis that the climate change is not caused by CO2 and there is no cost to an AGW scenario. If even a fraction of some of the projections are accurate then an AGW scenario would be very expensive the world. 

Not speaking an opinion on the topic, just slightly worried. And I need to stress again - if even a fraction  of some of the projections are accurate then an AGW scenario would be very expensive the world. far more expensive than irrigating the sahara. 

low hanging fruits first, of course (life style changes in the west, stabilize the amazon etc)... but is that enough ? 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

20 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

I love eating meat though😊

me too. 

About 2 years ago though we started eating less meat, but better quality locally produced. And local produce as well. Not religiously, but generally we try to teach the kids to purchase locally for their health and the health of the planet

I consider myself an eco-pragmatist and as such I don't agree 100 % with the Greta Thunberg message, but I think she (or those guiding her) are more right than wrong. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[OHMO + 9]

4 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

It can be done but it's basically hydroponics. Drip system at every plant with chemical fertilizers; after a few years the root mass and leaf litter starts creating real soil. 

Once you have established a semi stable area you move the drip system; do enough of these next to each other you can create a micro environment.

doesn't nature use this very method all along the edges of deserts

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

9 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Any take on why this wouldn't work? I know the political challenges etc - am interested in the science. 

You were apparently quoting something written by that fellow "Enphaltic."   I have him blocked and his posts do not appear to me.  He is a non-person, given his gratuitous insults on these pages.  

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

9 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Yep I was wondering how you get a rain forest growing in sand?

Being done right now on the front edge of the expanding Gobi Desert, now only 30 miles from Beijing.   Works fine.  The Chinese have developed a chemical that leaves sand porous to air, but impermeable to water.   Great stuff. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

7 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

It is my understanding that if we could change consumer patterns in West then the market would fix a lot of deforestation etc.

Nope.  Deforestation in the sub-sahara  ("the Sahel") takes place because of poor practices of subsistence locals, that wreck the fringe areas of the Sahel.  Has nothing to do with "consumer patterns in the West."

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

You were apparently quoting something written by that fellow "Enphaltic."   I have him blocked and his posts do not appear to me.  He is a non-person, given his gratuitous insults on these pages.  

I have nothing against enthalpic, but my personal experience with this forum has become a lot better since blocking a few others...

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

10 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I accept that. 

But this is based on the premis that the climate change is not caused by CO2 and there is no cost to an AGW scenario. If even a fraction of some of the projections are accurate then an AGW scenario would be very expensive the world. 

Not speaking an opinion on the topic, just slightly worried. And I need to stress again - if even a fraction  of some of the projections are accurate then an AGW scenario would be very expensive the world. far more expensive than irrigating the sahara. 

low hanging fruits first, of course (life style changes in the west, stabilize the amazon etc)... but is that enough ? 

Exactly.  If you do a 2x2 risk assessment doing something becomes the obvious decision.

It is real, and we do something = expensive but we saved the planet.

It is fake, and we do something = expensive but we probably come out better-off anyways (less "real" pollution).

It is real, and we ignore it = death and destruction.

It is fake, and we ignore it = Happy Tom , more "real pollution, but we have some extra money.

 

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

10 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Exactly.  If you do a 2x2 risk assessment doing something becomes the obvious decision.

I agree. I think the discussion what that is difficult. 

what I don't understand is why fossil fuel crusaders don't advocate picking the low hanging fruits - as an example making oil production more efficient and ensures less emission from the production (think Equinor)... It baffles me; big oil could do so much at relatively little cost and in return gain much public support. 

[Andrew N. + 3]

05.11.2019 в 23:20 Ронван сказал:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191025170815.htm

Инжеры разрабатывают новый способ удаления углекислого газа из воздуха

Процесс может работать в любых местах, от электростанций до открытого воздуха.

Дата:

25 октября 2019 г.

Источник:

Массачусетский Технологический Институт

«Устройство представляет собой большую специализированную батарею», которая поглощает углекислый газ в воздухе (или в другом газовом потоке), проходя через его электроды, по мере его зарядки, и затем выпускает  [ СО₂ ] газ по мере его разрядки. При этом устройство будет просто заряжаться и разряжаться, при этом свежий воздух или подавляемый газ будет обрабатываться в системе во время цикла зарядки , и в результате получается чистый концентрированный диоксид углерода [CO ₂ ], который выделяется во время разряда ».  

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-10/miot-med102519.php

 СО ₂ (углекислый газ), который является потенциальным источником сырья, его (СО ₂ ) можно легко расходовать в метаноле, а затем в диметиловом эфире - в чистом топливе без содержания серы, в котором содержание оксидов азота в выхлопных газах на 90% меньше, чем у бензина ( целое число диметилового дизеля более 55, при этом у классического нефтяного - 38-53).

ТЕХНОЛОГИЯ - БЕЗ ВЫБРОСОВ ДИОКСИДА УГЛЕРОДА

Начальник Департамента ПАО «Газпром» (Россия), член Правления О. Аксютин:

«Газпром» работает ... над созданием полностью безуглеродных технологий производства водорода из природного газа . Перспективная ... это инновационная технология разложения природного газа в водород и углерод. Это технология - без выделения диоксида углерода . В ней мы видим особый потенциал. Возможность получения низкоуглеродного водорода для энергетики, для другого - ценный углеродный материал для нужд промышленной промышленности. Аналогичные разработки ( на основе крекинга метана ) ведут и наши европейские коллеги из  Технологического института Карлсруэ и Потсдамского института перспективных исследований. Технологии, представленные экономически более привлекательными в сравнении с электролизом воды . Хочу отметить, что данные об основных положениях ПАО « Азотром » относительно стратегий по долгосрочному изменению парниковых газов в ЕС до 2050 года и размещены на сайте Европейской комиссии . https://www.gazprom.ru/press/news/reports/2019/innovations/   https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regulation/initiatives/ares-2018-3742094/feedback/F13767_es? P_ID = 265612

ПОЛУЧЕНИЕ ВОДОРОД ИЗ ПРИРОДНОГО ГАЗА В ПЛАЗМЕ СВЧ-АТМОСФЕРНЫЙ ПРИ РАЗРАЯД ДАВЛЕНИЕ http://neftegas.info/upload/iblock/9fa/9fab2afa3f023999b626ffe5a353c4e0.pdf

Edited January 29, 2020 by Andrew N.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Andrew N. said:

СО ₂ (углекислый газ), который является потенциальным источником сырья, его (СО ₂ ) можно легко расходовать в метаноле, а затем в диметиловом эфире - в чистом топливе без содержания серы, в котором содержание оксидов азота в выхлопных газах на 90% меньше, чем у бензина ( целое число диметилового дизеля более 55, при этом у классического нефтяного - 38-53).

  Andrew, please note that this Community Forum has a rule that requires all posts to be in English only.  The reason is that we need a universal typing standard that readers from different countries can write to, and English is most convenient for most members.  Thank you. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 1/28/2020 at 4:29 PM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

@Jan van Eck

proposed divirting some rivers to turn the sahar into a rain-forest. I have never seen cost analysis on this, but I actually think it would be favourable. I would be interesting though what that would do to the worlds weather system. 

Of course, the people who depend on the rivers, in their present channels, won’t be annoyed in the slightest when you redirect the rivers to ‘turn the Sahara into a rain-forest’.

I have serious doubts, due to lack of topsoil, that any amount of water would reverse the course of desertification.

Send a memo to AOC, this sounds like something she could ‘sink her teeth into’!

[OHMO + 9]

4 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I agree. I think the discussion what that is difficult. 

what I don't understand is why fossil fuel crusaders don't advocate picking the low hanging fruits - as an example making oil production more efficient and ensures less emission from the production (think Equinor)... It baffles me; big oil could do so much at relatively little cost and in return gain much public support. 

 

Flaring (or even worse, venting) of NG because oversupply of gas has driven the price so low.  This waste of a precious natural resource needs to be stopped.  The industry refuses to control itself resulting in diminishing margins.  A severe penalty for wasted gas is required to stop this practice because the lost opportunity profit is so low there is no motivation to capture this current overabundance.  A better alternative would be methanol plant near the source of the excess methane production.  Normally I would abhore government involvement but large tax advantage granted to the first x% of new methanol production facility would seem to be worthwhile.

[Rob Plant + 2,608]

19 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Nope.  Deforestation in the sub-sahara  ("the Sahel") takes place because of poor practices of subsistence locals, that wreck the fringe areas of the Sahel.  Has nothing to do with "consumer patterns in the West."

I tend to believe the attached

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/sahara-worlds-largest-desert-climate-change-growth-global-warming-sahel-a8280361.html

i think its more to do with changing weather patterns over the last few decades than climate change as in global warming,(but that's up for debate).

It has frankly less to do with the "locals" (who have been living there for centuries) than it has to do with "consumer patterns"