Passerby doused with flammable liquid and set on fire by peaceful protesters

[Marcin + 519]

Unarmed passerby in his t-shirt was engaged in heated argumentation with group of protesters as he was against them vandalizing a shop. Video shows that while he is talking with a protester, another protester comes to him doses a liquid on him and sets him on fire. The father of 2 is in critical condition after severe burns to 30% of his body.

The evenly horrific was spin by US media about the incident, I mean by CNN and Reuters. The titles were combined with shooting of different protester by police in non associated event in different part of Hong Kong in a way to try to justify the burning of passerby. Condemnation of police shooting, no condemnation, staying neutral to man burned alive in attempted murder The articles had 1-2 sentences about burned man, carefully hidden in 2 pager about guy shoot by policeman.  Policeman was attacked by a group of protesters who wanted to take a gun from policeman.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Marcin
spelling

[Guest]

Wow, where do I start? Hmm ...

This is old news and wasn't spun at all. How exactly would you spin this to be justifiable? All I saw were articles condemning it.

Quoting CNN. Jeez. There's your first mistake. I care even more about a human being when they have children and they're in a t shirt?

Can I say it's photoshopped by the way? Funded by Pooh? Thought not.

Who did this? One person out of ... what was it? 300,000+ ?  

Just to clarify ...

#DT2020

Any reason 'US' is one of your tags by the way? 

Cheers.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Guest

[Marcin + 519]

@DayTrader You still do not understand.

1,000 black clad, well trained people using Hamas like methods of terrorist urban warfare, are destroying the idea of

5,000,000 people that want change, democracy and decent living conditions.

Hong Kong can get the same deal as Taiwan: non-interference in domestic politics, military & foreign affairs ruled by Beijing.

It is the best offer Hong Kong can get, but definitely not by using terrorist methods. Beijing is more than happy with this violence, it is horrific, bordering terrorism. People attacking police officer and trying to take his gun, are shot in every country on Earth. 57-year old guy with t-shirt and trousers (no place to hide concealed weapon, that is why i mentioned his attire) is set on fire while discussing with protesters, he has not beaten anybody, he was only talking to protesters. This 57 old guy was alone, there were 20 protesters, he was no danger for them or anybody.

By peaceful protests, like at Tiananmen Square in 1989 Hong Kong can achieve much more than by this level of violence.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Marcin
spelling

[Guest]

It's awful, I agree, I understand that bit, I'm not going to make an excuse for this one asshole who did this to somebody.

Maybe if, to use your own words, the ''5 million people that want change, democracy and decent living conditions'' were listened to in the first place, 6 months ago, this would not be happening ??

Yeah, Tiananmen Square is remembered as a great historical moment ... this is just after you say Beijing is more than happy with the violence...

Have a think about that a sec.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Guest

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

 

By peaceful protests, like at Tiananmen Square in 1989 Hong Kong can achieve much more than by this level of violence.

....and how did that Tiananmen Square thing turn out? Not so well if I remember correctly...

[Marcin + 519]

5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

 

By peaceful protests, like at Tiananmen Square in 1989 Hong Kong can achieve much more than by this level of violence.

....and how did that Tiananmen Square thing turn out? Not so well if I remember correctly...

It was 1989 30 years ago, China and CCP were way different. Unrest at that very moment and period of anarchy, would cause enormous suffering and high casualties out of hunger, diseases. It is difficult to project but it could be somerhing like Great Leap experience 20 million victims. China would be today like India.

I am not justifying the massacre itself it was horrible but Deng Xiaoping and majority of party elders knew how it is to suffer hunger by personal experience.

Hong Kong is separate territory it is 2019 they could be much more effective in their message, also to Mainland Chinese by being less violent

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

What does suffering hunger have to do with killing hundreds of your own unarmed civilians participating in a generally peaceful protest?

Many people, in many countries, including the US, experienced or are experiencing hunger. It is not solely a Chinese thing.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Also, wasn’t it Mao who decided farmers should make iron, not food, and starved millions of Chinese to death?

[Marcin + 519]

25 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Also, wasn’t it Mao who decided farmers should make iron, not food, and starved millions of Chinese to death?

I told many times, Mao was power obsessed maniac, fortunately Deng Xiaoping&Zhou Enlai, another CCP elders moderated and repaired Mao's awful economic policies (Mao knew sh*t about economy), like after catastrophic Great Leap Forward you mentioned above. Mao is central figure in Chinese official historic narrative as a Founding Father of PRC, but he is a figure similar to Stalin in Russia, but more evil and less able than Stalin. The moment Mao will be criticized like Stalin in Russia, the moment Chinese will be honest about their modern history, the real democratic changes in China could start.

At the moment, in millions of Chinese homes the same discussions could be possible: Mummy who is this smiling person on this banknotes I received at my birthday. He is Mao Zedong. Who is he ? He is the guy that killed your grandfather/grandmother

[Marcin + 519]

42 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

What does suffering hunger have to do with killing hundreds of your own unarmed civilians participating in a generally peaceful protest?

Many people, in many countries, including the US, experienced or are experiencing hunger. It is not solely a Chinese thing.

 

Difference between China and US hunger experience:

Suffering real hunger was a common experience in China during Great Leap Forward, like say half of population, half of 600 million of Chinese.

In United States hunger say after WW2, something that people can still remember, is experience of small minority of people, homeless, bums, socially depraved persons. And in developed countries there are always free meals for poor people, free food etc. So this is not a real hunger understood as pervasive experience of whole nation.

 

[Marcin + 519]

I would say what I think is peaceful, reasonable protesting from experience of other countries (and why Hong Kong protests use excessive violence):

Peaceful, reasonable, efficient protesting (the most important thing is to use proportionate force):

- sabotaging city infrastructure but in a smart, not violent way. Like bringing bricks, building barricades to paralize city. Causing metro and other parts of the city transportation to not work, but in a smart way, many engineers among protesters, should use customized solutions. But not torching tool booths or passenger carriages or shops of innocent people. Too much feed for media.

- concentrating on paralizing government (police) infrastructure, also in a smart way. Sabotaging but in a stealth, smart way, so there is nothing to show on the media. Definitely  without torching government buildings.

- Proportionately counter-attacking police. Police beat protesters, protesters beat police. There is more protesters than police, Hong Kong police is weak not trained in urban warfare. It is age of easy access to information. You can always get the most rouge policemen after hours, at their place of residence, but again in propotionate manner. Throwing petrol bombs is a terrorist method totally excessive and not acceptable.

The major aim of 3 above points is to show narrative that it is police that is using excessive force against innocent protesters, fires do not help.

- Hong Kong protesters lack clear symbols that could unite society around protests. It should be easy but visible symbolism. Like putting small candles at windows, at all homes, at the given hour, in the evening. Good symbolism is very important as it gives people a sense of unity and power in a fight against authorities.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Marcin
typos

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

1 hour ago, Marcin said:

 

Difference between China and US hunger experience:

Suffering real hunger was a common experience in China during Great Leap Forward, like say half of population, half of 600 million of Chinese.

In United States hunger say after WW2, something that people can still remember, is experience of small minority of people, homeless, bums, socially depraved persons. And in developed countries there are always free meals for poor people, free food etc. So this is not a real hunger understood as pervasive experience of whole nation.

 

...or The Great Depression.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

53 minutes ago, Marcin said:

I would say what I think is peaceful, reasonable protesting from experience of other countries (and why Hong Kong protests use excessive violence):

Peaceful, reasonable, efficient protesting (the most important thing is to use proportionate force):

- sabotaging city infrastructure but in a smart, not violent way. Like bringing bricks, building barricades to paralize city. Causing metro and other parts of the city transportation to not work, but in a smart way, many engineers among protesters, should use customized solutions. But not torching tool booths or passenger carriages or shops of innocent people. Too much feed for media.

- concentrating on paralizing government (police) infrastructure, also in a smart way. Sabotaging but in a stealth, smart way, so there is nothing to show on the media. Definitely  without torching government buildings.

- Proportionately counter-attacking police. Police beat protesters, protesters beat police. There is more protesters than police, Hong Kong police is weak not trained in urban warfare. It is age of easy access to information. You can always get the most rouge policemen after hours, at their place of residence, but again in propotionate manner. Throwing petrol bombs is a terrorist method totally excessive and not acceptable.

The major aim of 3 above points is to show narrative that it is police that is using excessive force against innocent protesters, fires do not help.

- Hong Kong protesters lack clear symbols that could unite society around protests. It should be easy but visible symbolism. Like putting small candles at windows, at all homes, at the given hour, in the evening. Good symbolism is very important as it gives people a sense of unity and power in a fight against authorities.

 

 

 

 

If you think that passive resistance would do anything but make the Politburo yawn, you are fooling yourself.

Tibet, the issue in the South China Sea, Tiananmen Square, the Muslims in Western China, and on and on.

The Chinese will eventually move on Hong Kong, kill hundreds, arrest thousands and assume the world will forget. Those days are long gone.

[Marcin + 519]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

If you think that passive resistance would do anything but make the Politburo yawn, you are fooling yourself.

Tibet, the issue in the South China Sea, Tiananmen Square, the Muslims in Western China, and on and on.

The Chinese will eventually move on Hong Kong, kill hundreds, arrest thousands and assume the world will forget. Those days are long gone.

Proportionate resistance is by no means passive, it is very much active but without terrorist excess.

A lot of space between Gandhi and zealots.

[Marcin + 519]

Every action has its consequence. At the current moment of Chinese history tanks in Hong Kong have too high price tag not feasible in my opinion. Unless it spills out to Mainland.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

The Politburo can not lose face. If that means people have to die violently to preserve that face, so be it.

[Otis11 + 551]

On 11/13/2019 at 3:22 PM, Marcin said:

Hong Kong can get the same deal as Taiwan

I think that's what they're fighting for... (Taiwan is a free country in all but name, essentially what the 1997 treaty promised until 2047.)

 

Or did you mean Taiwan can get the same deal as Hong Kong? (Or Xinjiang, or Tibet...) Because that's exactly what they're worried about...

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3031128/taiwan-stands-firm-against-one-country-two-systems-xi-jinping

 

And your point about acting in a better, more effective way - yeah, that would be great if the protesters were allowed to have leaders. But anyone who even sort of looks like a leader is arrested.

 

As for putting candles in the window... might as well put up a sign that says 'Arrest this family' or 'Target me!'. They wear masks for a reason. China seriously has the ability and has shown the willingness to identify and target individuals (Social credit score anyone?) for doing things they dont' like. Joining the HK Resistance isn't likely to help their Social Credit Scores...

[Guest]

China Is About To Get Angry: US Senate To Vote Show Of Support For Hong Kong Protesters 

by Tyler Durden

Thu, 11/14/2019 - 22:45

As noted moments ago, futures ramped to new record highs rising above 3,100 following a quote from top Trump advisor Larry Kudlow, who has figured out that he gets most bang for the buck in juicing futures when liquidity is virtually nil, around 8pm or so, when he told reporters that Phase One of the China deal is "down to the short strokes", adding that "we are in communication with them every single day right now", and repeating that "a deal is close", even if "it’s not done yet."

And yet, while such Deal On/Deal Off market manipulation is nothing new and has been going on for over a year and a half, there is the possibility that China is about to be royally pissed off, if not by Trump for whom a China (non) "deal" is critical to pushing the market to all time highs just before the 2020 presidential election and thus will not dare to anger Xi Jinping over the ongoing fiasco that is Hong Kong, then by the Senate, which is preparing for quick passage of legislation to show support for pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong by placing the city’s special trading status with the U.S. under annual review.

According to Bloomberg, the Senate is set to bring the bill to the floor under an expedited process that would allow for quick passage unless there is an objection, according to the lead sponsor, Republican Senator Marco Rubio. And since it is unlikely anyone will object, the bill is expected to pass as early as next week ...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-about-get-angry-us-senate-vote-show-support-hong-kong-protesters

[Otis11 + 551]

6 hours ago, DayTrader said:

China Is About To Get Angry: US Senate To Vote Show Of Support For Hong Kong Protesters 

by Tyler Durden

Thu, 11/14/2019 - 22:45

As noted moments ago, futures ramped to new record highs rising above 3,100 following a quote from top Trump advisor Larry Kudlow, who has figured out that he gets most bang for the buck in juicing futures when liquidity is virtually nil, around 8pm or so, when he told reporters that Phase One of the China deal is "down to the short strokes", adding that "we are in communication with them every single day right now", and repeating that "a deal is close", even if "it’s not done yet."

And yet, while such Deal On/Deal Off market manipulation is nothing new and has been going on for over a year and a half, there is the possibility that China is about to be royally pissed off, if not by Trump for whom a China (non) "deal" is critical to pushing the market to all time highs just before the 2020 presidential election and thus will not dare to anger Xi Jinping over the ongoing fiasco that is Hong Kong, then by the Senate, which is preparing for quick passage of legislation to show support for pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong by placing the city’s special trading status with the U.S. under annual review.

According to Bloomberg, the Senate is set to bring the bill to the floor under an expedited process that would allow for quick passage unless there is an objection, according to the lead sponsor, Republican Senator Marco Rubio. And since it is unlikely anyone will object, the bill is expected to pass as early as next week ...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-about-get-angry-us-senate-vote-show-support-hong-kong-protesters

Good. I pretty strongly disagree with Trump on this one - The issue with Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjiang (and others) is actually a lot more compelling to me than making a trade deal. I'd support continual increasing pressure until all issues are resolved. Halfway trade deal just gives them a lifeline and give our US companies working in China mixed signals. (That said, I am not fully aware of all the internal trade offs - so it might be a decent call, but given the current public information, I disagree.)