Hydrogen Hurdles in Japan

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-hydrogen-southkorea-insight/hydrogen-hurdles-a-deadly-blast-hampers-south-koreas-big-fuel-cell-car-bet-idUSKBN1W936A

A dangerous fuel that is hard to contain and is more expensive than natural gas. Green extremism is the allure to an expensive and untenable future. 

Hydrogen hurdles: a deadly blast hampers South Korea's big fuel cell car bet

Also see https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-hydrogen-explainer/explainer-why-asias-biggest-economies-are-backing-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-idUSKBN1W936K

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Hardly anyone talks hydrogen anymore; fuel cells never became cheap or reliable enough and - as you mentioned - storing the stuff is a huge problem.

Lastly, market forces would have had all the hydrogen come from partial oxidation of methane / Nat gas anyways, so not much less carbon output really.

In theory it's super neat, but in practice a total flop.

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 11/16/2019 at 11:03 AM, Enthalpic said:

Hardly anyone talks hydrogen anymore; fuel cells never became cheap or reliable enough and - as you mentioned - storing the stuff is a huge problem.

I completely agree about the hazards and risks of using hydrogen but there is some talk about it by those who are almost entirely unaware of all the problems. I sometimes see article about it and even serious suggestions of cars using it.. This is all bizarre given the obvious problems, but then the whole renewable energy field is bizarre..  

[NickW + 2,714]

On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:03 AM, Enthalpic said:

Hardly anyone talks hydrogen anymore; fuel cells never became cheap or reliable enough and - as you mentioned - storing the stuff is a huge problem.

Lastly, market forces would have had all the hydrogen come from partial oxidation of methane / Nat gas anyways, so not much less carbon output really.

In theory it's super neat, but in practice a total flop.

Agreed. If you have a source of cheap Hydrogen might as well blend it into the NG network which can take 10-15% hydrogen by volume.

This is one option to help deal with scenarios where massive solar / wind overbuild occurs.

[markslawson + 1,057]

On 11/16/2019 at 11:03 AM, Enthalpic said:

Hardly anyone talks hydrogen anymore; fuel cells never became cheap or reliable enough and - as you mentioned - storing the stuff is a huge problem.

Just when you thought that hydrogen was dead note this bunch of total lunatics  these guys are academics. Don't bother to reply on the site, incidentally, if you have a mind to.. contrary voices aren't tolerated on that site. Your comments will be removed and you won't be able to comment on anything else. Also says something about the chief scientist delivering a report.. is there no end to the madness.. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

2 hours ago, markslawson said:

note this bunch of total lunatics  these guys are academics.

From the article: " We wanted to identify where major plants for electrolysis could be built, asked whether the existing national electricity market should supply the power, and looked at the effect on the cost of the system and, ultimately, energy affordability. "

Note the order of their BS... BACK ASSWARDS to any engineering. 

Here is the way anyone rational would pursue the problem

1. Energy affordability
2. Effect on system
3. Power supply
4. Location etc

The most hilarious portion: Bottom banner:

"Before you go...

It is easier than ever for special interests to spread disinformation on vital issues. To inform the public about what’s really going on, we help experts drill down into the facts. We can’t do this work without your help. Please support us – even a donation of $5"

🤣🤣🤣

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 11/18/2019 at 5:27 AM, NickW said:

Agreed. If you have a source of cheap Hydrogen might as well blend it into the NG network which can take 10-15% hydrogen by volume.

This is one option to help deal with scenarios where massive solar / wind overbuild occurs.

I didn't know normal NG networks could handle that... cool.  I'll look into that more.

Alternatively, partially oxidize methane to get CO and blend with H2 to get Syngas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Enthalpic

[ceo_energemsier + 1,818]

Hyundai's Hydrogen Semi-Truck Concept Is Built to Take on Tesla

 

 

Hyundai's Hydrogen Semi-Truck Concept Is Built to Take on Tesla

 

 

https://news.yahoo.com/hyundais-hydrogen-semi-truck-concept-162400768.html

[Boat + 1,323]

Not exactly related but Tesla’s electric pickup I believe is unveiled tonight.

[remake it + 288]

10 hours ago, markslawson said:

Just when you thought that hydrogen was dead note this bunch of total lunatics  these guys are academics. Don't bother to reply on the site, incidentally, if you have a mind to.. contrary voices aren't tolerated on that site. Your comments will be removed and you won't be able to comment on anything else. Also says something about the chief scientist delivering a report.. is there no end to the madness.. 

There are smart people involved compared with those who make uninformed comments here.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, remake it said:

There are smart people involved compared with those who make uninformed comments here.

Pot, kettle, black!

Sorry forgot you are actually a bot not a person

Edited November 22, 2019 by Rob Plant

[Dread Cthulhu + 4]

A big issue with hydrogen fuel, that doesn't get mentioned much for some reason, is simply the price of the fuel itself. According to the California Fuel Cell board, the average price at the pump for the handful of stations in CA selling it is $14/kg.  At that price, it means a mid-size sedan (like the Toyota Mirai) costs more than 20 cents per mile to fuel.  Meanwhile, plenty of regular gasoline sedans of the same size cost less than 10 cents per mile to fuel, and charging a Tesla Model 3 is less than 4 cents a mile at average US electric prices. A good hunk of that is simply the cost of the energy needed to compress & transport the hydrogen, which doesn't have any real room for improvements.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

13 hours ago, Boat said:

Not exactly related but Tesla’s electric pickup I believe is unveiled tonight.

Yea, it unveiled, and it is an absurd JOKE. 

WHen you start the presentation with a pickups 0-60 time.... you know it is a joke.  Only good thing about it is that it has LOTS and LOTS of low speed torque.  Of course it has no pickup bed which is 100% why you buy a Pickup....

[markslawson + 1,057]

12 hours ago, remake it said:

There are smart people involved compared with those who make uninformed comments here.

Go and look at the comments above.. I happened to mention hydrogen to some hard left friends who have technical training and they rolled their eyes.. there is very little support for the hydrogen economy stuff, even among the usual suspects.. leave it with you.

[remake it + 288]

39 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Go and look at the comments above.. I happened to mention hydrogen to some hard left friends who have technical training and they rolled their eyes.. there is very little support for the hydrogen economy stuff, even among the usual suspects.. leave it with you.

"...  hard left friends who have technical training"   that's the best you can do, which suggests your ability to analyse has nothing to do with with what is actually  being proposed.

[NickW + 2,714]

On 11/22/2019 at 4:07 AM, Enthalpic said:

I didn't know normal NG networks could handle that... cool.  I'll look into that more.

Alternatively, partially oxidize methane to get CO and blend with H2 to get Syngas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngas

 

 

Id keep it simple and blend any surplus Hydrogen into the NG network

This report states that 5-15% by volume (1.7-5% by calorific value)  could be blended without any significant adjustments being made 

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/51995.pdf

Seems to me that this the only potential viable Hydrogen economy unless some massive breakthrough is made to lower fuel cell costs. . Basically using electrolysis as a means of soaking up surplus solar & wind and effectively using the NG network as a storage medium. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/17/2019 at 5:46 PM, markslawson said:

I completely agree about the hazards and risks of using hydrogen but there is some talk about it by those who are almost entirely unaware of all the problems. I sometimes see article about it and even serious suggestions of cars using it.. This is all bizarre given the obvious problems, but then the whole renewable energy field is bizarre..  

There are some hydrogen cars in Japan and California. It always seemed like a bad idea to me. I favor natural gas as it is, or as CNG or LNG. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/18/2019 at 6:27 AM, NickW said:

Agreed. If you have a source of cheap Hydrogen might as well blend it into the NG network which can take 10-15% hydrogen by volume.

This is one option to help deal with scenarios where massive solar / wind overbuild occurs.

This does sound like a good idea but I don't know if it might escape from natural gas lines and create increased danger. 

[Michael Jones + 34]

I set up BPs hydrogen activities back in 2000 and learnt a lot about the issues of supplying hydrogen.  I did such a good job the President of the USA wanted to meet me.  Hence my claim to fame is actually turning down a meeting with George W Bush because i have to leave DC to go to a meeting with Ford in Detroit!  I think the difference between the activities then and the renaissance hydrogen is experiencing now is because many cant see how to cap CO2 emissions  without hydrogen particularly the heating requirement (residential but key is industrial high temp)  Also with the large growth in renewables hydrogen is a means of storing the power over long term cycles.   

There are still many challenges but all can be managed.

Regards

 

[NickW + 2,714]

9 hours ago, ronwagn said:

This does sound like a good idea but I don't know if it might escape from natural gas lines and create increased danger. 

Which is why its limited to 5-15% (depending on the infrastructure)

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 11/15/2019 at 3:26 PM, ronwagn said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-hydrogen-southkorea-insight/hydrogen-hurdles-a-deadly-blast-hampers-south-koreas-big-fuel-cell-car-bet-idUSKBN1W936A

A dangerous fuel that is hard to contain and is more expensive than natural gas. Green extremism is the allure to an expensive and untenable future. 

Hydrogen hurdles: a deadly blast hampers South Korea's big fuel cell car bet

Also see https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-hydrogen-explainer/explainer-why-asias-biggest-economies-are-backing-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-idUSKBN1W936K

 

On 11/15/2019 at 6:03 PM, Enthalpic said:

Hardly anyone talks hydrogen anymore; fuel cells never became cheap or reliable enough and - as you mentioned - storing the stuff is a huge problem.

Lastly, market forces would have had all the hydrogen come from partial oxidation of methane / Nat gas anyways, so not much less carbon output really.

In theory it's super neat, but in practice a total flop.

 

On 11/22/2019 at 8:54 AM, Dread Cthulhu said:

A big issue with hydrogen fuel, that doesn't get mentioned much for some reason, is simply the price of the fuel itself. According to the California Fuel Cell board, the average price at the pump for the handful of stations in CA selling it is $14/kg.  At that price, it means a mid-size sedan (like the Toyota Mirai) costs more than 20 cents per mile to fuel.  Meanwhile, plenty of regular gasoline sedans of the same size cost less than 10 cents per mile to fuel, and charging a Tesla Model 3 is less than 4 cents a mile at average US electric prices. A good hunk of that is simply the cost of the energy needed to compress & transport the hydrogen, which doesn't have any real room for improvements.

Hydrogen vehicles are a hard sell, but some countries might jump on them for specific, commercial uses.  Suppose you're Japan or South Korea.  You import all of your oil and natural gas, leaving you at the mercy of foreign suppliers, potentially unstable trade lanes, and questionable allies.  Your natural gas is far more expensive than global averages, and you keep fuel prices high to discourage wasteful use, which means hydrogen isn't that big of a leap.  You're not above using coal (Japan) or nuclear (South Korea), which means you have a steady supply of affordable energy. 

Will you implement hydrogen fuel cells for passenger vehicles?  Not likely.  BEVs make more sense.  However, your trains, heavy trucks, and other commercial vehicles offer a decent use case.  The engines for these vehicles are already expensive, so moving to fuel cells isn't a huge leap.  Hydrogen is more expensive, but it's also more efficient - esp. in short-range vehicles that experience a lot of stop-and-go traffic.  You'll also enjoy dramatically reduced maintenance costs. 

Will hydrogen take over the world?  No.  It could very well carve out a niche for itself though. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

3 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

 

 

Hydrogen vehicles are a hard sell, but some countries might jump on them for specific, commercial uses.  Suppose you're Japan or South Korea.  You import all of your oil and natural gas, leaving you at the mercy of foreign suppliers, potentially unstable trade lanes, and questionable allies.  Your natural gas is far more expensive than global averages, and you keep fuel prices high to discourage wasteful use, which means hydrogen isn't that big of a leap.  You're not above using coal (Japan) or nuclear (South Korea), which means you have a steady supply of affordable energy. 

Will you implement hydrogen fuel cells for passenger vehicles?  Not likely.  BEVs make more sense.  However, your trains, heavy trucks, and other commercial vehicles offer a decent use case.  The engines for these vehicles are already expensive, so moving to fuel cells isn't a huge leap.  Hydrogen is more expensive, but it's also more efficient - esp. in short-range vehicles that experience a lot of stop-and-go traffic.  You'll also enjoy dramatically reduced maintenance costs. 

Will hydrogen take over the world?  No.  It could very well carve out a niche for itself though. 

I am a big advocate of natural gas fuels for cleaner air and much lower priced fuel plus superabundance. It can also be used in fuel cells or EVs if desired. 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

H2 is one of those theoretically perfect things that don't work well in the real world. For greenies of a technical bent, there is a way out of this mess: instead of making H2 from your excess solar and wind electricity, make "green CH4". The round-trip electricity->gas->electricity efficiency for CH4 is a bit lower, but we already have a massive, globe-spanning infrastructure to transport and store CH4 and convert it back into electricity. There is no such infrastructure for H2. Green CH4 cannot compete directly with fossil CH4 as long as fossil CH4 (i.e., natural gas) is being produced as a loss as a byproduct of shale oil, but it does not need to. Green CH4 is also a byproduct. It would be produced only when wind and solar would otherwise be curtailed. Green CH4 can then supplant fossil CH4 over the course of several decades as the cost of fossil CH4 rises and the cost of green CH4 falls.