More dumbed down? re Hong Kong Act of Congress

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 11/20/2019 at 1:28 AM, Marcin said:

It is not unexpected. Any tool that works in hegemonic war is appriopriate.  It is patriotic for United States to make as much harm as possible in any area available. All the following means will be used by US: pressure on China regarding Taiwan, Hong Kong. Next step i expect in 2 years is revoking 1 China policy and official declaration that Taiwan is a country and official ceasing of political relations with China. China expects this too and this is already calculated. The dangerous  move will be the next one. US will try to deploy US forces on Taiwan. This is when the war could start. China is preparing for this particular contingency.

China has been preparing to attack Formosa since Mao chased Chiang Kai-Shek and his followers onto Formosa. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Hong Kong voters humiliate Beijing in landslide election

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hong-kong-voters-humiliate-beijing-in-landslide-election-w9fxldzzv

No matter how much some may want to "spin" some media, the people have spoken and its pretty damning on Beijing and Xi !!

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Maybe they'll introduce this into Hong Kong as they have done in Xinjiang province?

https://www.dw.com/en/china-extreme-brainwashing-at-uighur-prison-camps-exposed-in-new-leak/a-51394542

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

@DayTrader Thought you might like this

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-game-of-life-visualizing-chinas-social-credit-system/

 

[frankfurter + 562]

Yes, the voters have shown clearly their dislike and preferences. Full credit to them for expressing this via legal and democratic channels. But will this change anything substantively? Likely no. 

The fact is Hong Kong is an inalienable region of PR China, who has granted SAR status to HK.  SAR means "special administrative region"; not "self-autonomous region" (as many have believed and expressed to me). Governments govern by the consent of the governed, and thus the ultimate fate of HK lies in the hands of PRC citizens 24 years hence when the SAR expires.

The cry from Hong Kong is now a cry for independence. Throughout history, no government anywhere has permitted a separation peacefully without a major war. No PRC citizen would ever support the break-away of HK. We must simply wait now to see how HK citizens will conduct themselves until expiration date. If they think the USA will fight a war against a nuclear power upon their behalf, they are dreaming insanely.

I fear the protestors have hardened the hearts and minds of PRC citizens, and thus all HK has won is the continuation of the SAR until expiration date. I suspect HK will lose its SAR status in 24 years and with it will go any and all freedoms HK citizens enjoy now. Thus, if the election is seen to be a victory, it is but a Pyrrhic victory.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by frankfurter

[frankfurter + 562]

On 11/25/2019 at 10:03 AM, ronwagn said:

China has been preparing to attack Formosa since Mao chased Chiang Kai-Shek and his followers onto Formosa. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek

This is but an example supporting my basic assertion.

Wikipedia articles may appear to be authoritative, but are not. Wikipedia articles are anonymously authored by an amorphous mass of unidentifiable persons, the vast majority of whom take great pains to conceal their identities. Even amongst the "editors", people have no disclosure to each other. The fact is ANY person can publish or edit ANY information, with zero citations or proofs, anonymously, with ZERO RISK for accountability, harm, or loss to reputation. Wikipedia articles are nothing more than anonymous, dubious BLOGS.

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

20 hours ago, frankfurter said:

Yes, the voters have shown clearly their dislike and preferences. Full credit to them for expressing this via legal and democratic channels. But will this change anything substantively? Likely no. 

The fact is Hong Kong is an inalienable region of PR China, who has granted SAR status to HK.  SAR means "special administrative region"; not "self-autonomous region" (as many have believed and expressed to me). Governments govern by the consent of the governed, and thus the ultimate fate of HK lies in the hands of PRC citizens 24 years hence when the SAR expires.

The cry from Hong Kong is now a cry for independence. Throughout history, no government anywhere has permitted a separation peacefully without a major war. No PRC citizen would ever support the break-away of HK. We must simply wait now to see how HK citizens will conduct themselves until expiration date. If they think the USA will fight a war against a nuclear power upon their behalf, they are dreaming insanely.

I fear the protestors have hardened the hearts and minds of PRC citizens, and thus all HK has won is the continuation of the SAR until expiration date. I suspect HK will lose its SAR status in 24 years and with it will go any and all freedoms HK citizens enjoy now. Thus, if the election is seen to be a victory, it is but a Pyrrhic victory.

 

Possibly, the reverse will be true and the mainland Chinese will decide they do not want to live in a totalitarian dictatorship. Xi may not be around then. That would be my preference. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

On 11/26/2019 at 7:27 AM, frankfurter said:

I fear the protestors have hardened the hearts and minds of PRC citizens, and thus all HK has won is the continuation of the SAR until expiration date. I suspect HK will lose its SAR status in 24 years and with it will go any and all freedoms HK citizens enjoy now. Thus, if the election is seen to be a victory, it is but a Pyrrhic victory.

How incredibly sad for the people of HK if your prediction comes true!

To have no choice or freedom under the regime that controls you is basically a form of imprisonment IMO.

This is why the people of HK MUST keep fighting for their freedom.

[specinho + 470]

On 11/20/2019 at 3:28 PM, Marcin said:

It is not unexpected. Any tool that works in hegemonic war is appriopriate.  It is patriotic for United States to make as much harm as possible in any area available. All the following means will be used by US: pressure on China regarding Taiwan, Hong Kong. Next step i expect in 2 years is revoking 1 China policy and official declaration that Taiwan is a country and official ceasing of political relations with China. China expects this too and this is already calculated. The dangerous  move will be the next one. US will try to deploy US forces on Taiwan. This is when the war could start. China is preparing for this particular contingency.

you might have misunderstood the situation............. Hong Kong and Taiwan, regardless how economically established and advanced in their societies, they can never post a threat to China. If stirring up issues will not be good for businesses, then, there might be no reason the US, a government backed by mostly businessmen turned contriutors for greater good, would be so adamant in getting involve in washing someone's socks..........

 

On 11/21/2019 at 2:22 PM, frankfurter said:

Now, since you mention veto, let's consider the USA Constitution:
The U.S. Constitution grants the President of the United States the sole power to veto [say No] to bills passed by both houses of Congress. A vetoed bill can still become law if Congress overrides the president’s action by obtaining a super-majority vote of two-thirds of the members of both the House (290 votes) and the Senate (67 votes). 

Why you or anyone would argue the power of Congress is a mystery to me. 

IF this Bill becomes the law of the land, every POTUS will be bound by law to intervene in HK. Given HK is an inalienable part of PRChina, such intervention is a blatant violation of sovereignty, which is an act of war.

Pardon me, this reply does not intend to go against what you are saying, just to clarify to reach consensus. Starting with definition of veto: a constitutional right to reject a decision or proposal made by a lawmaking body. https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=6LbeXcWoFaWdmgfzsa_gDg&q=veto&oq=veto&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i70i249j0l9.1059.1496..2022...0.0..0.218.754.0j3j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i131.HshzGd4vsBU&ved=0ahUKEwjFvMvT-YrmAhWljuYKHfPYC-wQ4dUDCAY&uact=5

Therefore, veto might mean absolute power to final decision, or no?

If the decision is to punish HK for violating human rights, so be it. No harm done to relationship with China. But where are we heading with the cornering accusations??