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(edited)

Good day everybody, I thought I'd save you all a little time here and if you wish you can focus the seemingly non stop national competition to this thread. I was under the impression personally that neither system was perfect by any means, but it rather seems the 'whataboutism' is almost constant from both sides. It appears to rather prove my point beforehand that an understandable national pride that we all have inherently is prone to taking over and indeed blinker users here from their nation's own domestic problems, to a point they will defend literally anything done, whether historically or in the modern era, with disregard to its negative aspects, as long as it appears their own nation is 'better' or 'not as bad' as the other.

Joking aside, I feel it may tidy up the forum somewhat also. Please feel free to mention any trade war news, impeachment news. economic or growth details and comparisons, President Trump news, Emperor Xi news, future global projections, anything at all connected to either country, as almost every thread seems to end up in this way anyway from what I can see. This is not intended as an insult particularly, I am genuinely very interested by certain users' views on these topics, I simply aim for the conversation to be in and evolve from one place.

To clarify, I obviously am not expecting an answer to the title of the piece, that is intended as pure sarcasm, and I obviously appreciate that with some regard the future of the planet may be affected by some of these matters, but I do wish simply to gather all opinion here. 

And no Mr Regan, this suggestion is not an impication or wish from myself to be a moderator. It is simply that - a suggestion sir.  

Respectfully to you all, Papillon. 

Edited by Papillon
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I am now waiting for @Day Trader to post that England is the best country ever! FACT!

He is right of course🤣

But seriously a little perspective from both sides as Papillon says would be helpful.

On a slightly different note. 

Are the troubles in France an unnecessary fight by Macron that will ultimately cost him his job? 

https://news.sky.com/story/france-strike-protests-turn-violent-as-industrial-action-causes-travel-chaos-11878533

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26 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Are the troubles in France an unnecessary fight by Macron that will ultimately cost him his job? 

say what you will about Macron, but he has balls. He is seriously trying to reform France. I have still to form an opinion on whether his reforms are good or bad. 

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Just now, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

say what you will about Macron, but he has balls. He is seriously trying to reform France. I have still to form an opinion on whether his reforms are good or bad. 

Macron is claiming that for some (ie rail workers) it is unfair for them to be able to retire 10 years earlier than most of the rest of the workforce. he is correct it is unfair however the real reason is not "fairness" it is an economical one, France cannot continue to afford to pay state pensions for people who can legally retire 10 years early.

It is easy for an employer (French Government) to give benefits to its workers (ie pay rises) however to do the opposite naturally creates ill will and potentially rioting or worse.

I don't think he has" balls" as you say, I think he is between a rock and a hard place on this one.

It will be interesting to see if he survives another mass protest especially after the "gilets jaunes" earlier this year.

Personally I think the French people have had enough of him and there is no way he would get re-elected anyway.

 

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32 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

I am now waiting for @Day Trader to post that England is the best country ever! FACT!

He is right of course🤣

Well duh.

USA? Pff, who cares? China? Pff, who cares? What's all this about? World domination? Insecure much? Jeez. Get over yourselves.

Been there, done that, gave it all back, got boring. 

Put it this way Rob, if this thread was UK v USA or UK v China it would be a f**k**g short thread mate. 

Note what language you are currently reading by the way ... atleast the Chinese have their own language so 1-0 to them at the moment ...

@Papillon , I could not agree with you more as always. You have quickly realised this forum tends to be a verson of ''let's get the ruler out'', and when the results are not as hoped then metaphorically the reply will be ''well the ruler was made in China, what do you expect?''

Also you will note that you have with good intention started this thread with the SOLE intention of it being about USA and China, and it went straight to FRANCE and the rather amazing ENGLAND. This is a common theme here, nothing at all to do with the title ... 😅

Welcome to OilPrice 🤣 ... oh and it will very rarely be about oil either ... 

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29 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Put it this way Rob, if this thread was UK v USA or UK v China it would be a f**k**g short thread mate. 

Haha very true.

 

29 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Also you will note that you have with good intention started this thread with the SOLE intention of it being about USA and China, and it went straight to FRANCE and the rather amazing ENGLAND. This is a common theme here, nothing at all to do with the title ... 😅

yeah my bad!

I did say "On a slightly different note. " in my defence,

I think we have done the whole USA v China thing to death now anyway.

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(edited)

That's a joke right? If that were true the forum would shut down lol. Even Papillon said it's half the forum 🤣

If it starts getting a bit slow then you just need to start a thread like ''the USA is full of morons'' ... I have a feeling that would get views and comments, and it's bang on ...

 

Edited by Guest

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(edited)

For me the question about the best country means: best for its citizens. My ranking: Sweden, France, Germany, Switzerland, US (No basis for opinion Been only twice, and only once for longer= 2 months), Poland. China would be last, but again No basis for opinion never been there.

Edited by Marcin
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1 hour ago, Rob Plant said:

I don't think he has" balls" as you say, I think he is between a rock and a hard place on this one.

It will be interesting to see if he survives another mass protest especially after the "gilets jaunes" earlier this year.

My point is that Macron knew there would conflict when he did this. He didn't shy away from despite yellow wests protest... That's balls in my book. 

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9 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

My point is that Macron knew there would conflict when he did this. He didn't shy away from despite yellow wests protest... That's balls in my book. 

Yes he knew that there would be protests, but his hand was forced simply by economics, not that he had "balls"

As I said earlier he was between a rock and a hard place (no choice)

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Papillon, you will notice that Rob and Rasmus get confused rather easily  ;) 

It appears that they believe France is geographically a part of either America or China, and are still waffling away about it. You must forgive them, they simply have some form of bond due to an anti Brexit agenda I believe, and if it involves a European country then they are all over it  ...  :) 

Just kidding guys lol, but so you know Tom has actually started a France thread and it has no comments LOL.

Sort it out.  #leavewon

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9 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Papillon, you will notice that Rob and Rasmus get confused rather easily  ;) 

It appears that they believe France is geographically a part of either America or China, and are still waffling away about it. You must forgive them, they simply have some form of bond due to an anti Brexit agenda I believe, and if it involves a European country then they are all over it  ...  :) 

Just kidding guys lol, but so you know Tom has actually started a France thread and it has no comments LOL.

Sort it out.  #leavewon

I'm bored of Trump and China bashing (well nearly) lets have a go at our old nemesis France. I personally dislike Macron, if there ever was a career politician it is him. I'm sure he is just trying to land a top job in the EU anyway.

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@Day Trader

Anyway shouldn't you be moving your sofa or maybe your bed, you could do with a lie down!🤣 

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I am, but you keep sucking me back in... I feel like Pacino in Godfather III !!

And having a pop at the French is way too easy ... imagine an England v France thread, would literally be the title, no comments necessary mate.

Right I'm off, look up France on a map guys, it's literally inbetween USA and China. 

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Within the nexus of this "national competition" one casualty has been the US (and Canada) production of canola, which the Chinese now refuse to buy in an effort to place hurt on the US agriculture sector and achieve, by inflicting trade pain, what they cannot achieve at the bargaining table.  The boycott and import-refusal of China as relates to US canola has left vast swathes of canola plant in the field with no market, and with those farmers facing financial ruin.  One response has been for Trump to declare financial aid, presumably in the form of price-support or production payments.  Yet, canola is an interesting plant, and the question arises, are there other uses for it?  Let's take a look.

Canola is known in the rest of the world as "rapeseed."  The plant grows readily, has a stalk by-product, and the pod end contains the canola seed, which is the part that is trans-shipped by bulk freighter to the customer, who then presses the seed to extract the oil.  Canola oil is superb for use as a cooking oil and basically all of the output is used for that purpose.  The left-over seed material is known in that industry as "meal" and is rich in protein, and typically used for direct feed to livestock.  It is a premium feed for that purpose, so the by-product has quite a bit of added value. 

Keep in mind that some 20 years ago there was no organized market in the USA for canola, and the product was not grown, at least not in anny quantity.  The entire market, and its production in the US, is responsive to Chinese demand. Canola is thus a classic "substitute good" for US Midwest farmers, where land typically used for corn or wheat is re-planted with canola, more profitable for the sale to the Chinese. In a sense, the entire market is an artificial one, as there were no natural customers for US canola.  World supply came typically from Australia and parts of Europe, especially Eastern Europe, I think Ukraine.  But, Chinese demand for better diets and thus more cooking oils exploded the demand for canola, and the US growers eagerly responded. 

Faced with mountains of unsold, and unsalable, canola seed in the US, the question arises:  what can we do with the stuff?  And a tantalizing prospect arises.  I assume that the pressing operation to manufacture the canola oil is a mundane industrial process and can be readily duplicated.  I would doubt that seed-pressing is an occult art, it is likely quite mature technology at this point world-wide.  OK, so now we set up seed-pressing inside the USA and we develop this vast lake of canola oil  (the meal part being sold to livestock ranches and pig farms, for a nice profit of course).  

It turns out that canola oil is a great feedstock for the production of diesel fuel, or "bio-diesel."  Already there are these installations that take used cooking oil and refine the stuff to create diesel, then used to run local buses.Well, if used oil works, why not fresh oil?  The stumbling block to using bio-diesel is that the manufacture of the diesel results in the production of glycerin, a thick fat material that will clog up fuel lines, especially if the temperature drops and the glycerin congeals. So, efforts are directed towards the removal of the glycerin, and to no surprise as some 10% to 20% by weight of the canola oil will result in glycerin in conventional extraction methods, the resale price of glycerin has collapsed, and the material is today treated as a waste product. 

Can glycerin have a useful "home," become a product with its own value?  That is an interesting question:  I suspect it can, possibly as a fuel enhancer for stationary power plants or home-heating fireplaces.  I postulate that wood log splits can be soaked in the stuff, and it would burn nicely.  Possibly wood pellets can be soaked in liquid glycerin and again this would boost the btu output of pellets in direct burning.  The glycerin results from converting that canola oil with methyl alcohol, or "methanol," of which there is lots and lots in America available on the cheap, itself manufactured in special methanol plants from corn.  The methanol reactions result in the formation of glycerin, and there is currently no industrial pathway for canola conversion without methanol.

Yet, interesting research is being don on distilling bio-diesel from canola without the production of glycerin.  One approach is the use of dimethyl carbonate as a catalyst, and that protocol apparently dramatically reduces the amount of glycerin as a by-product.  Another takes it a step further and adds a preparation consisting of active sodium methoxide catalyst prepared by crystallization, in the form of a finely-ground powder, which has the tantalizing result of producing virtually no glycerin at all.  Can either of these reaction pathways be developed into robust industrial processes to fully convert canola oil directly into diesel  (or jetfuel)?  

I bet they can.  I bet they will.  And once that happens, whoever is in there "first" with gobs of capital to set it up on a seriously large scale will clean up.  Why?  Because a pure, clean bio-diesel is unbeatable as an engine fuel, and as a heating fuel. There are technical reasons for this which I shall avoid discussing for brevity, but I see this as a real winner.  And best of all, it gets the US farmer out from underneath in a great big hurry, and provides far more income than selling the seeds in bulk to the Chinese.  

Does the USA need China as a customer - for anything?  And the answer is No.  The USA is quite capable of finding other markets, or planting other crops, or creating new markets and products from its existing stable, and totally excluding the Chinese. What it will impact is the US oil markets, in that it will provide a farm product as direct substitution for a middle distillate.  Yet, and again speculating, if the product substitution is directly against imported oil, it does not whack the US shale producers so much as depress US imports of ME or African oils.  Either way, I predict that a successful development of the redeployment of canola oil into biodiesel is going to make some entrepreneurs vastly rich, and take market share away from producers  and distillers in the US Midwest and Gulf Coast. And that would be an interesting re-alignment. 

 

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The famous Mr van Eck no less. I have heard a lot about you sir and it was quite the pleasure finally perusing your thoughts I must say. Many thanks for your input, it was very much appreciated and delightfully informative sir. I look forward to future postings and conversing with you further. Respectfully, Papillon. 

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Some people talk about economies, militaries, human rights records, currency devaluations, trade disputes, HK, Trump, Xi, impeachment nonsense, Russia, Ukraine, the next potential war, weaponry, Pooh bear, Orange Man ...

Not Jan, the pressing issue to him is the future of rapeseed ...

You're unique Jan, I'll give you that mate. 

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(edited)

57 minutes ago, Papillon said:

Many thanks for your input, it was very much appreciated and delightfully informative sir.

Well, sheesh, Mr. Papillon,  all those nice words and all I got was a green arrow upvote.  I would have thought all that hard work was deserving of a Purple Cup vote.   Hey, remember that I am totally shameless is hustling votes!    Now go back there and change that to a nice purple color....   

Edited by Jan van Eck
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5 minutes ago, DayTrader said:

Not Jan, the pressing issue to him is the future of rapeseed ...

Hey, I tossed in the possibility of making some extra coin from the development of a new market for glycerin, also.  Be nice, now.  Remember, I am a  capitalist, not a communist.  There is a difference. 

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1 minute ago, Jan van Eck said:

Be nice, now.

I'll be nice if you spell 'glycerine' and 'colour' properly. Until then forget it. 

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Seattle Opens Longest Road Tunnel in the U.S.

 

The Highway 99 tunnel provides easy access to the city’s waterfront.

Workers set barricades in place as a vehicle drives past inside the new Highway 99 tunnel ahead of its opening day on Friday, Feb. 1, 2019, in Seattle.
 

Seattle's Highway 99 tunnel, the longest road tunnel in the contiguous U.S., opened Monday, offering the public easy access from the city's downtown to its waterfront attractions.

The $3.3 billion, 2-mile-long tunnel will replace the earthquake-damaged Alaskan Way Viaduct.

The tunnel's completion has been much-anticipated after a decade of planning and work, including a two-year construction delay due to issues with Seattle's drilling machine, Bertha.

Later this year, the tunnel will have tolls ranging from $1 to $2.25, depending on the time of day.

Yes now is the time for comparison with China:

In 2012 China had 441 tunnels longer than Seattle Tunnel.

In 2018 China had 1,058 tunnels longer than Seattle Tunnel.

On average they add 103 longer tunnels a year.

China will have best physical infrastructure of all countries in less than 10 years (at present Japan is still better).

But Japan will remain best in developed countries category, since China is still a developing country.

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2 hours ago, Marcin said:

Seattle Opens Longest Road Tunnel in the U.S.

 

The Highway 99 tunnel provides easy access to the city’s waterfront.

 

Workers set barricades in place as a vehicle drives past inside the new Highway 99 tunnel ahead of its opening day on Friday, Feb. 1, 2019, in Seattle.

Seattle's Highway 99 tunnel, the longest road tunnel in the contiguous U.S., opened Monday, offering the public easy access from the city's downtown to its waterfront attractions.

The $3.3 billion, 2-mile-long tunnel will replace the earthquake-damaged Alaskan Way Viaduct.

The tunnel's completion has been much-anticipated after a decade of planning and work, including a two-year construction delay due to issues with Seattle's drilling machine, Bertha.

Later this year, the tunnel will have tolls ranging from $1 to $2.25, depending on the time of day.

Yes now is the time for comparison with China:

In 2012 China had 441 tunnels longer than Seattle Tunnel.

In 2018 China had 1,058 tunnels longer than Seattle Tunnel.

On average they add 103 longer tunnels a year.

China will have best physical infrastructure of all countries in less than 10 years (at present Japan is still better).

But Japan will remain best in developed countries category, since China is still a developing country.

Workers set barricades in place as a vehicle drives past inside the new Highway 99 tunnel ahead of its opening day on Friday, Feb. 1, 2019, in Seattle.

Seattle's Highway 99 tunnel, the longest road tunnel in the contiguous U.S., opened Monday, offering the public easy access from the city's downtown to its waterfront attractions.

The $3.3 billion, 2-mile-long tunnel will replace the earthquake-damaged Alaskan Way Viaduct.

The tunnel's completion has been much-anticipated after a decade of planning and work, including a two-year construction delay due to issues with Seattle's drilling machine, Bertha.

Later this year, the tunnel will have tolls ranging from $1 to $2.25, depending on the time of day.

Yes now is the time for comparison with China:

In 2012 China had 441 tunnels longer than Seattle Tunnel.

In 2018 China had 1,058 tunnels longer than Seattle Tunnel.

On average they add 103 longer tunnels a year.

China will have best physical infrastructure of all countries in less than 10 years (at present Japan is still better).

But Japan will remain best in developed countries category, since China is still a developing country.

When an earthquake hits, which tunnel would you rather be in? One in Seattle or one in China? Ask the (dead) schoolchildren in Schezuan province, whose government bureaucrats were bribed to look the other way while totally substandard building materials and methods were used building their schools. The plutocrats have never returned, their "constituents" will kill them on sight. You think you know China, and corruption? You know nothing.  

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10 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Within the nexus of this "national competition" one casualty has been the US (and Canada) production of canola, which the Chinese now refuse to buy in an effort to place hurt on the US agriculture sector and achieve, by inflicting trade pain, what they cannot achieve at the bargaining table.  The boycott and import-refusal of China as relates to US canola has left vast swathes of canola plant in the field with no market, and with those farmers facing financial ruin.  One response has been for Trump to declare financial aid, presumably in the form of price-support or production payments.  Yet, canola is an interesting plant, and the question arises, are there other uses for it?  Let's take a look.

Canola is known in the rest of the world as "rapeseed."  The plant grows readily, has a stalk by-product, and the pod end contains the canola seed, which is the part that is trans-shipped by bulk freighter to the customer, who then presses the seed to extract the oil.  Canola oil is superb for use as a cooking oil and basically all of the output is used for that purpose.  The left-over seed material is known in that industry as "meal" and is rich in protein, and typically used for direct feed to livestock.  It is a premium feed for that purpose, so the by-product has quite a bit of added value. 

Keep in mind that some 20 years ago there was no organized market in the USA for canola, and the product was not grown, at least not in anny quantity.  The entire market, and its production in the US, is responsive to Chinese demand. Canola is thus a classic "substitute good" for US Midwest farmers, where land typically used for corn or wheat is re-planted with canola, more profitable for the sale to the Chinese. In a sense, the entire market is an artificial one, as there were no natural customers for US canola.  World supply came typically from Australia and parts of Europe, especially Eastern Europe, I think Ukraine.  But, Chinese demand for better diets and thus more cooking oils exploded the demand for canola, and the US growers eagerly responded. 

Faced with mountains of unsold, and unsalable, canola seed in the US, the question arises:  what can we do with the stuff?  And a tantalizing prospect arises.  I assume that the pressing operation to manufacture the canola oil is a mundane industrial process and can be readily duplicated.  I would doubt that seed-pressing is an occult art, it is likely quite mature technology at this point world-wide.  OK, so now we set up seed-pressing inside the USA and we develop this vast lake of canola oil  (the meal part being sold to livestock ranches and pig farms, for a nice profit of course).  

It turns out that canola oil is a great feedstock for the production of diesel fuel, or "bio-diesel."  Already there are these installations that take used cooking oil and refine the stuff to create diesel, then used to run local buses.Well, if used oil works, why not fresh oil?  The stumbling block to using bio-diesel is that the manufacture of the diesel results in the production of glycerin, a thick fat material that will clog up fuel lines, especially if the temperature drops and the glycerin congeals. So, efforts are directed towards the removal of the glycerin, and to no surprise as some 10% to 20% by weight of the canola oil will result in glycerin in conventional extraction methods, the resale price of glycerin has collapsed, and the material is today treated as a waste product. 

Can glycerin have a useful "home," become a product with its own value?  That is an interesting question:  I suspect it can, possibly as a fuel enhancer for stationary power plants or home-heating fireplaces.  I postulate that wood log splits can be soaked in the stuff, and it would burn nicely.  Possibly wood pellets can be soaked in liquid glycerin and again this would boost the btu output of pellets in direct burning.  The glycerin results from converting that canola oil with methyl alcohol, or "methanol," of which there is lots and lots in America available on the cheap, itself manufactured in special methanol plants from corn.  The methanol reactions result in the formation of glycerin, and there is currently no industrial pathway for canola conversion without methanol.

Yet, interesting research is being don on distilling bio-diesel from canola without the production of glycerin.  One approach is the use of dimethyl carbonate as a catalyst, and that protocol apparently dramatically reduces the amount of glycerin as a by-product.  Another takes it a step further and adds a preparation consisting of active sodium methoxide catalyst prepared by crystallization, in the form of a finely-ground powder, which has the tantalizing result of producing virtually no glycerin at all.  Can either of these reaction pathways be developed into robust industrial processes to fully convert canola oil directly into diesel  (or jetfuel)?  

I bet they can.  I bet they will.  And once that happens, whoever is in there "first" with gobs of capital to set it up on a seriously large scale will clean up.  Why?  Because a pure, clean bio-diesel is unbeatable as an engine fuel, and as a heating fuel. There are technical reasons for this which I shall avoid discussing for brevity, but I see this as a real winner.  And best of all, it gets the US farmer out from underneath in a great big hurry, and provides far more income than selling the seeds in bulk to the Chinese.  

Does the USA need China as a customer - for anything?  And the answer is No.  The USA is quite capable of finding other markets, or planting other crops, or creating new markets and products from its existing stable, and totally excluding the Chinese. What it will impact is the US oil markets, in that it will provide a farm product as direct substitution for a middle distillate.  Yet, and again speculating, if the product substitution is directly against imported oil, it does not whack the US shale producers so much as depress US imports of ME or African oils.  Either way, I predict that a successful development of the redeployment of canola oil into biodiesel is going to make some entrepreneurs vastly rich, and take market share away from producers  and distillers in the US Midwest and Gulf Coast. And that would be an interesting re-alignment. 

 

Jan, I love the creativity of your thinking process. I am assuming that you think that rapeseed (canola) has more potential for biofuel than soybeans. I have no idea. Can you tell me why it would be preferable? The same question applies to ethanol from corn. The part left after producing ethanol is used as a protein supplement and whole corn can be used for fattening cattle. 

I love your idea of adding glycerine to fuel pellets, but they would have to be handled with care and might be too dangerous to use in pellet stoves. I don't know what the flash point is however. Glycerine might be a great fuel to just add to fireplaces as a starting block however.

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(edited)

Papillon, we really need to unpack a category of best to categories of best at what to have an intelligent comparison. Obviously America is better at a representative form of government. China is best at dictatorship. China is best at building quantities of tunnels and fast trains. I woud like to see such a discussion. 

Edited by ronwagn
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I could not agree more sir. The title of the piece was somewhat sarcastic and, as you hint at, there are so many categories we could name that we would be here for years. My intention in all honesty was for the conversation to maybe become more factual in the historic sense, as there are many knowledgeable people here it seems.What I mean is economically, militarily, governmentally, architecturally ... take your pick really sir. I would like to know many of these facts and views from both sides of the argument, and therefore the 'current' news such as trade disputes can by definition be added to newer threads as news arises, whereas this thread is maybe more the 'historical and factual' one. Maybe it is easier to word it in that way sir. 

I am obviously not expecting some rather grand answer of who won at the finale. As I say the intention was rather more the historical comparisons of these two great nations, for example upto the year 2000 at most, whereas this point in time upto the present day can be maybe confined to the other current day threads as it were. I trust this clarifies sir. 

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