Denmark gets 47% of its electricity from wind in 2019

[NickW + 2,714]

Denmark breaking new records helped by interconnections with Germany and Scandinavia. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-denmark-windpower/denmark-sources-record-47-of-power-from-wind-in-2019-idUSKBN1Z10KE

[remake it + 288]

37 minutes ago, NickW said:

Denmark breaking new records helped by interconnections with Germany and Scandinavia. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-denmark-windpower/denmark-sources-record-47-of-power-from-wind-in-2019-idUSKBN1Z10KE

So this is what has been keeping @Rasmus Jorgensen so busy?

[markslawson + 1,058]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:02 AM, NickW said:

Denmark breaking new records helped by interconnections with Germany and Scandinavia. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-denmark-windpower/denmark-sources-record-47-of-power-from-wind-in-2019-idUSKBN1Z10KE

 

On 1/3/2020 at 10:40 AM, remake it said:

So this is what has been keeping @Rasmus Jorgensen so busy

Like all those feel-good renewable stories you have to dig a little deeper. Denmark has long been claiming high penetration rates from wind. I was looking at this stuff in 09 and nothing much seems to have changed but basically Denmark is a small economy with a lot of wind power capacity. When a lot of wind power comes on its grid it can export the excess across the Baltic for storage in the numerous dams of the much larger economies of Sweden and Norway (just a shipping channel between Denmark and Sweden). When the wind dies they pay to re-import the power. Its an expensive way to run a grid but it does get them to nearly half renewable energy. Norway, incidentally is at 100 per cent renewable because it has masses of hydro power. It is as I've always said. If a grid already has lot of hydro (or access to hydro in Denmark's case), then its much easier to get high penetration rates of wind. Without hydro there's lots of problems. None of this is cheap, as I noted. Denmark's power costs are high even in European terms - a point the article carefully avoids mentioning.

[remake it + 288]

50 minutes ago, markslawson said:

It is as I've always said. If a grid already has lot of hydro (or access to hydro in Denmark's case), then its much easier to get high penetration rates of wind. Without hydro there's lots of problems. None of this is cheap, as I noted

The lights are not going out in Europe as it moves into higher renewable penetration, and while pumped hydro has been a relatively cheap option to date, it is most likely to progressively give way to battery technologies as has become the case in the USA.

[NickW + 2,714]

3 hours ago, markslawson said:

 

Like all those feel-good renewable stories you have to dig a little deeper. Denmark has long been claiming high penetration rates from wind. I was looking at this stuff in 09 and nothing much seems to have changed but basically Denmark is a small economy with a lot of wind power capacity. When a lot of wind power comes on its grid it can export the excess across the Baltic for storage in the numerous dams of the much larger economies of Sweden and Norway (just a shipping channel between Denmark and Sweden). When the wind dies they pay to re-import the power. Its an expensive way to run a grid but it does get them to nearly half renewable energy. Norway, incidentally is at 100 per cent renewable because it has masses of hydro power. It is as I've always said. If a grid already has lot of hydro (or access to hydro in Denmark's case), then its much easier to get high penetration rates of wind. Without hydro there's lots of problems. None of this is cheap, as I noted. Denmark's power costs are high even in European terms - a point the article carefully avoids mentioning.

I managed to get the interconnections point in one sentence. 

Their economy seems to be bubbling along nicely too

https://tradingeconomics.com/denmark/gdp-growth-annual

 

[Marcin + 519]

26 minutes ago, NickW said:

I managed to get the interconnections point in one sentence. 

Their economy seems to be bubbling along nicely too

https://tradingeconomics.com/denmark/gdp-growth-annual

 

Danish interconnectors with foreign countries: Germany, Norway,. Sweden are in total 5500 MW, comparable with their peak load.

This is extraordinary situation, possible only in small economy, with large neighbours with large hydro capacity or base load capacity (Germany coal, natural gas and nuclear) and developed Nordic electricity market.

Simply Denmark trades CO2 emissions indirectly and pays a lot for every CO2 ton exported to foreign countries through reserved base load capacities in that countries.

The same as these Di Caprio ecology awareness on his big yacht or private jet compounded with unique location, Denmark is the only country in the world with such location.

[Marcin + 519]

2 hours ago, remake it said:

The lights are not going out in Europe as it moves into higher renewable penetration, and while pumped hydro has been a relatively cheap option to date, it is most likely to progressively give way to battery technologies as has become the case in the USA.

 

Battery technology is a hoax as 1 to 2 orders of magnitude more expensive (10 to 100 times) than reserve peak capacities in natural gas or coal or pumped hydro/hydro or nuclear in France special case.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Marcin
typo

[remake it + 288]

1 minute ago, Marcin said:

This was bot answer so to speak, no fact accuracy.

Batter technology is a hoax as 1 to 2 orders of magnitude more expensive (10 to 100 times) than reserve peak capacities in natural gas or coal or pumped hydro/hydro or nuclear in France special case.

Please insert <conspiracy theory> trinket here.

[Boat + 1,324]

Doesn’t Canada produce over 50% of its electricity from hydro. Wind and solar adding another 15%? 

[Boat + 1,324]

Texas thanks Europe, China and Japan in particular for advancing renewables even though you continue to pay a high price. Denmark 32 cents per kw in comparison to a Texas kw of $.12 cents. 
Texas has a bigger GDP than those frisky geopolitical Russians. We use more electricity. And now the US is energy independent to boot which must frustrate the hell outa our foreign friends.

Texas is also killing coal plants while getting close to 20% renewable penetration during incredible growth in population and economic GDP.

While the world heats up with tension were turning up the AC.

[remake it + 288]

11 minutes ago, Boat said:

Texas thanks Europe, China and Japan in particular for advancing renewables even though you continue to pay a high price. Denmark 32 cents per kw in comparison to a Texas kw of $.12 cents. 

Its not that electricity is expensive in Europe, it's all the add-ons.  In the chart below notice how "acquisition" costs are less than 10 years ago

[Boat + 1,324]

So the obvious question would be, which of those charges have nothing to do with electricity.

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, Marcin said:

Danish interconnectors with foreign countries: Germany, Norway,. Sweden are in total 5500 MW, comparable with their peak load.

This is extraordinary situation, possible only in small economy, with large neighbours with large hydro capacity or base load capacity (Germany coal, natural gas and nuclear) and developed Nordic electricity market.

Simply Denmark trades CO2 emissions indirectly and pays a lot for every CO2 ton exported to foreign countries through reserved base load capacities in that countries.

The same as these Di Caprio ecology awareness on his big yacht or private jet compounded with unique location, Denmark is the only country in the world with such location.

According to this (2016)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/da.html

It consumes 33 Twh

Exports 10 Twh (mostly surplus wind)

Imports 15 Twh ( mix of Hydro, Nuclear, & Fossil from Sweden and Germany) 

Why not share baseload through the dreaded (well by OP.Com naysayers) interconnector ? 

It reduces overall capital costs and encourages mutual cooperation between countries. 

Most mainland European countries are heavily interconnected to take advantage of time differences and help reduce the risk of blackouts. Even the Uk has 4GW of interconnections with the mainland. 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, Boat said:

So the obvious question would be, which of those charges have nothing to do with electricity.

6.88 c are pure taxes - electrici

 

10 hours ago, Boat said:

Texas thanks Europe, China and Japan in particular for advancing renewables even though you continue to pay a high price. Denmark 32 cents per kw in comparison to a Texas kw of $.12 cents. 
Texas has a bigger GDP than those frisky geopolitical Russians. We use more electricity. And now the US is energy independent to boot which must frustrate the hell outa our foreign friends.

Texas is also killing coal plants while getting close to 20% renewable penetration during incredible growth in population and economic GDP.

While the world heats up with tension were turning up the AC.

Denmark's GDP /head is about $51000 and its growing moderately. 

For most Danes living on a Sandbank which is typically less than 30 metres above sea level makes them more sensitive to global warming and in particular rising sea levels than say Texans. 

It came as no surprise they made it quite clear that Greenland is not up for sale. 6 million Danes will need that when Denmark is eventually washed into the North Sea. 

 

[Marcin + 519]

50 minutes ago, NickW said:

Most mainland European countries are heavily interconnected to take advantage of time differences and help reduce the risk of blackouts. Even the Uk has 4GW of interconnections with the mainland. 

 

I agree on everything you said apart from time differences. All Denmark neighbours are the same time zone, all EU+Norway apart from  UK-1, Portugal-1 and Greece+1 are the same time zone. light activated street lamps make some minor difference in load

Edited January 5, 2020 by Marcin
typo

[NickW + 2,714]

3 minutes ago, Marcin said:

I agree on everything you said apart from time differences. All Denmark neighbours are the same time zone, all EU+Norway apart from  UK-1, Portugal-1 and Greece+1 are the same time zone.

Fair point. 

Interconnectors also allow for sharing of surplus capacity when one part of the continent is suffering extreme weather. 

Although the UK is generally a net importer its electricity and gas interconnectors often work in reverse in extreme weather. Cold weather but also hot weather when many of Frances Nuc are on maintenance / reduced output due to heat. On occasions we import LNG as the UK has 3 very large terminals and exports the piped gas to Europe if the price is right. 

[Marcin + 519]

13 hours ago, remake it said:

Its not that electricity is expensive in Europe, it's all the add-ons.  In the chart below notice how "acquisition" costs are less than 10 years ago

Decreasing acquisition costs show how subsidizing of renewables through surcharges and higher grid costs kills existing nuclear( and coal) and prevent new investment in nuclear. Very good graph.

[Marcin + 519]

3 hours ago, NickW said:

 

It came as no surprise they made it quite clear that Greenland is not up for sale. 6 million Danes will need that when Denmark is eventually washed into the North Sea. 

 

Dutch are in much more precarious position yet managed to take care of North Sea invasion. Trump is playing with the globe like a child ( old one) like Carey in Bruce Almighty.

[NickW + 2,714]

15 hours ago, Marcin said:

 

Battery technology is a hoax as 1 to 2 orders of magnitude more expensive (10 to 100 times) than reserve peak capacities in natural gas or coal or pumped hydro/hydro or nuclear in France special case.

As EV's increasingly penetrate the car market this will generate a growing supply of 2nd life EV batteries which are perfectly good for storing power but have degraded as such they are no longer ideal for cars. 

Take 50,000 1st gen Nissan Leaf Batteries that have degraded to 14kwh capacity. Thats 0.7 Gwh of storage capacity that can respond in milliseconds and can be set up at multiple locations throughout the country(s) which will help reduce transmission losses which can be an issue with pump storage in far flung places. 

Now apply that to Tesla, Renault (zoe), BMW etc. 

And apply to all those PHEV / HEV vehicles. 

[markslawson + 1,058]

22 hours ago, remake it said:

and while pumped hydro has been a relatively cheap option to date, it is most likely to progressively give way to battery technologies as has become the case in the USA.

Have to disagree on that one.. pumped hydro may be relatively cheap, compared to batteries or almost any other means of storing power on a grid scale but giving way to batteries? There may have been battery installations but they are not used for storage on industrial scale.. their main use - where they are used - is as a sort of buffer while wind dies and hydro or whatever powers up.. they are most emphatically not used, and cannot be used, as a substitute for pumped hydro.. the one exception is on micro-grids, and even then they cannot hold enough power to make a significant difference.

[remake it + 288]

2 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Have to disagree on that one.. pumped hydro may be relatively cheap, compared to batteries or almost any other means of storing power on a grid scale but giving way to batteries? There may have been battery installations but they are not used for storage on industrial scale.. their main use - where they are used - is as a sort of buffer while wind dies and hydro or whatever powers up.. they are most emphatically not used, and cannot be used, as a substitute for pumped hydro.. the one exception is on micro-grids, and even then they cannot hold enough power to make a significant difference.

You miss the point in that initially pumped hydro installations are relatively cheap as they can use a lot of the existing dam infrastructure, while over time these opportunities will deplete and additional pumped hydro "batteries" will need to be built from scratch.

[markslawson + 1,058]

20 hours ago, NickW said:

managed to get the interconnections point in one sentence. 

Their economy seems to be bubbling along nicely too

https://tradingeconomics.com/denmark/gdp-growth-annual

So you did - fair enough.. Sure, the Danish have always done well.. although the annual growth rates poijnted to in your article aren't spectacular or even particularly good.. just think what they could do with reasonable power prices.. 

[markslawson + 1,058]

3 minutes ago, remake it said:

initially pumped hydro installations are relatively cheap as they can use a lot of the existing dam infrastructure

Okay, that I can live with.. I thought you were talking about actual batteries.. never mind, move on.. 

[remake it + 288]

6 minutes ago, markslawson said:

Okay, that I can live with.. I thought you were talking about actual batteries.. never mind, move on.. 

Pumped hydro will get costlier while redox and cell batteries will get significantly cheaper by the year

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Getting away from the number crunching, when I was working in Denmark (circa late 90’s), at least half of the people I spoke to in Copenhagen hated what these windmills were doing to their vistas and countryside.

Does this even enter the debate for wind energy?