What's the Endgame Here?

[Papillon + 485]

Mr Plant, two of the photos are black and white sir. That should tell you something about his argument. Personally I have no further time for the drivel here. Good day.

[Rob Plant + 2,627]

13 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Real democracies, where governments could really be voted out of power, where new parties appear and disappear to suit changing NEEDS of citizens are Germany, Sweden, my country Poland, in some measures also Great Britain – but going US path,  France, Canada – in between UK and US, failed democracy, etc.

I think the UK is certainly a democracy by your reasoning and disagree with you strongly that we are going to a 2 party system. We have had more brand new parties  in the last 10 years than any other country I could name! There is also no barrier apart from a relatively small amount of money (nothing like the US) to start your own party, or just stand as an independent.

Your point about the US 2 party system is correct and I agree this is almost impossible to change. However that really wasn't the point I was making in the first place.

good analysis though Marcin😊

[Rob Plant + 2,627]

20 minutes ago, PE Scott said:

If any of you ever venture out to my part of the world, please let me know so I can take you to a 3 gun course or maybe to just plink some steel in the dessert.......I challenge you not to have a good time!

PE I have no problem with anyone shooting guns at an organised gun club for sport/ enjoyment. However they should have to leave their guns at their gun club locked in a secure case, as should the ammo.You can still have all your fun shooting your guns, but its in a controlled environment. Why the need to have these at home?

I have been to a range in Charlotte (invited by a business acquaintance) so I get that people enjoy the "fun" part, I've also been on a couple of clay pigeon shoots in the UK. i don't feel the need to own a gun or have this in my house where the same controls cannot be guaranteed.

As i say I believe most Americans own/carry guns because most others do and it is more for their own perceived personal safety. I don't buy the BS that is spouted by some that one day you may have to rise up against your evil Democrat or Republican president, its ludicrous!

Anyone seriously arguing that this is required by the people in America today are living in the 1900's or have a mental illness.

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

1 hour ago, Tom Kirkman said:

I own a gun.  Not a chance in hell I'm giving it up.  It was my birthday present for my 12th birthday.

haha... tom you crack me up..

You CHOSE by your own free will to live in country with tough gun control laws. Obviously, for whatever the reason YOU PERSONALLY were ready to give up the right to own guns... 

Can you seriously not see the irony.. 

[Marcin2 + 725]

Maybe it was a little bit exaggeration , but 20% of UK society is actually disfranchised by UK electoral system, and 20% in democracy is a lot. That is why I think British democracy has sproblems.

Bear in mind that in democracy any minority, significant minority like over 5% of society, cause with 60 million you have electoral, representative democracy, have their voice represented, not in Britain.

True in ALL (other) democracies.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Bob D + 562]

5 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

haha... tom you crack me up..

You CHOSE by your own free will to live in country with tough gun control laws. Obviously, for whatever the reason YOU PERSONALLY were ready to give up the right to own guns... 

Can you seriously not see the irony.. 

Where do you think Tom lives??

Tom - Where do you live??

[Rob Plant + 2,627]

3 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Maybe UK was a little bit exaggeration , but 20% of UK society is actually disfranchised by UK electoral system, and 20% in democracy is a lot, that is why I voted my dissent, UK is failed democracy, cause these 20%.

Marcin this does NOT mean they are disenfranchised with democracy!! It just means that they dont believe in our electoral system, they are 2 different things. The 20% will be largely from the Liberal Democratic party who would gain many more seats if we changed to proportional representation. I can assure you those voting Lib Dem believe in democracy!!

I think if you asked people in most democracies you would get 1 in 5 say they weren't happy with the system.

 

[Rob Plant + 2,627]

10 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

haha... tom you crack me up..

You CHOSE by your own free will to live in country with tough gun control laws. Obviously, for whatever the reason YOU PERSONALLY were ready to give up the right to own guns... 

Can you seriously not see the irony.. 

He's back in the States now Rasmus

Missed his gun apparently!

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

another funny thing about this alternate reality place - there are numerous threads here about the migth of the American military and how none of us know full extent of how technologically advanced the US military is. Yet, people here argue that the govt can be overthrown with handweapons if needed.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Rasmus Jorgensen

[Rasmus Jorgensen + 1,169]

11 minutes ago, Bob D said:

Where do you think Tom lives??

Tom - Where do you live??

@Tom Kirkman

[Papillon + 485]

4 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Yet, people here argue that the govt can be overthrown with handweapons if needed... 

Very good point sir, I had not considered that. I had no idea that tanks and bombs and planes could be overcome with a handgun but now I know. The Chinese will be over the moon with this knowledge no doubt. I will contact Xi immediately.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Papillon

[ronwagn + 6,290]

6 hours ago, Papillon said:

this ^

this ^

You seem to be blind to the soft coup that has been going on against now President Trump since he became a candidate. It appears to have been going on since he became a candidate for the Republican nomination. If Hillary had won, we would never have known about it and would be descending into a leftist nightmare and an increasingly oppressive government.

Critical Information on the Trump, Obama, and Hillary Investigations https://docs.google.com/document/d/1choW_wq0D5DfjRPjqLlAkfxCnnVJhRzrHeXppE6D4E8/edit

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

1 hour ago, Papillon said:

You didn't answer any of Mr Plant's questions sir and your pictures are generally in reference to other nations. Is their history relevant to the USA? When you suggest 'let history be your teacher' for example, maybe the Middle East and the last thirty years taught you something?

Or do you ignore that part of recent history as you are too busy focusing on the history of other nations entirely? 

To be fair all I am seeing is an NRA poster, which unsurprisingly is pro guns, then one of the pictures has a reference to Mr Obama, as the comparisons are somewhat of a hobby here, and the other two I believe are China and Germany? Believe it or not, even a discussion about American gun laws mentions China here. 

So the USA bases its values and teachings on the histories of other nations does it now, or is this some form of convenient 'other side of the world' history that you apply to your own nation as and when you wish, to justify an obsession with guns? 

We can all conclude what the answers are to Mr Plant's questions therefore from your lack of response. Your government is a joke, you have no confidence in it and you fear it. Plain and simple. Welcome to the land of the free. 

Critical Information on the Trump, Obama, and Hillary Investigations

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1choW_wq0D5DfjRPjqLlAkfxCnnVJhRzrHeXppE6D4E8/edit

[Papillon + 485]

22 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

You seem to be blind to the soft coup that has been going on against now President Trump since he became a candidate

By this reasoning you have all only had guns now for three years then yes? This is why you have guns apparently, to protect from government. Presumably there have been these coups then for the whole of your lives there? 

And to clarify, your reply and reasoning for bringing up China and Germany sir, with images of black and white photos, when discussing gun laws, appears to be 'here is a file I made on some candidates from a party I don't like'.

Perfect. Case closed. DT was right. I give up. Good day sir. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Papillon

[ronwagn + 6,290]

28 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Maybe UK was a little bit exaggeration , but 20% of UK society is actually disfranchised by UK electoral system, and 20% in democracy is a lot, that is why I voted my dissent, UK is failed democracy, cause these 20%.

Bear in mind that in democracy any minority, significant minority like over 5% of society, cause with 60 million you have electoral, representative democracy, have their voice represented, not in Britain.

True in ALL (other) democracies.

(US 2 party system is oligarchy, but  US people have cute name republic on this, but they do not know the meaning of the republic, they would be true during times of Roman Empire, but not by modern deifinition)

US 2 party system, and thus oligarchy is one of the TWO most dangerous things on our planet, the second is that China is not democracy either.

Every country in the world is now statist. 

stat·ist

/ˈstādist/

Learn to pronounce

noun

 

1. an advocate of a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs.

   "this is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions"

    

adjective

 

1. relating to or characteristic of a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs.

   "a statist approach to healthcare"

    

   Some are Democracies. America is a Constitutional Republic. Many are Faux Democracies such as Russia,

   Many are dictatorships such as North Korea. Cuba,  and Venezuela or virtual dictatorships such as Russia. 

    

   The social aspects of statism can fairly rapidly lead to loss of freedom of speech and then other freedoms. This is currently a threat in the United States which is the has the most freedoms of any nation that I am aware of. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

9 hours ago, Papillon said:

@ronwagn  Have your weapons aided you sir in the attempt at impeachment, or indeed any governmental wrongdoings in your entire life? Or do Republicans there merely whine about it while realising they have no power deep down? Does the following sentence suggest protection from government or from other nations and 'successful invasions' in your view? 

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Such language has created considerable debate regarding the Amendment's intended scope.

It appears to be yet another law to me, such as the one about conflicts and war, where yet again America can pick and choose its meaning at will, and so renders it utterly pointless. It even suggests itself that there is debate to its meaning and original premise. Utterly pointless to discuss as DT said.

Papillon, you obviously have a lack of information about the Constitution of the United States of America and how important it is for us to follow its tenets. Unfortunately many Americans have allowed infringements to take place. Maintaining our freedoms is a constant battle. 

You are entitled to your opinions which appear to favor statism and all the infringement your government wishes to impose. Don't assume that your opinions are of any more value than anyone else's here. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

25 minutes ago, Papillon said:

By this reasoning you have all only had guns now for three years then yes? This is why you have guns apparently, to protect from government. Presumably there have been these coups then for the whole of your lives there? 

And to clarify, your reply and reasoning for bringing up China and Germany sir, with images of black and white photos, when discussing gun laws, appears to be 'here is a file I made on some candidates from a party I don't like'.

Perfect. Case closed. DT was right. I give up. Good day sir. 

You like to deal in generalities that you can twist to fit your agenda Papillon. You lose the argument by ignoring the facts. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

31 minutes ago, Papillon said:

By this reasoning you have all only had guns now for three years then yes? This is why you have guns apparently, to protect from government. Presumably there have been these coups then for the whole of your lives there? 

And to clarify, your reply and reasoning for bringing up China and Germany sir, with images of black and white photos, when discussing gun laws, appears to be 'here is a file I made on some candidates from a party I don't like'.

Perfect. Case closed. DT was right. I give up. Good day sir. 

You obviously ignore that Mexico is the most violent country in the world right now and it has very strict gun laws. The common person is thus defenseless against the cartels unless he becomes a lawbreaker.

[Rob Plant + 2,627]

2 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

You obviously ignore that Mexico is the most violent country in the world right now and it has very strict gun laws. The common person is thus defenseless against the cartels unless he becomes a lawbreaker.

With respect Ron you compare apples with pears

Mexico is not a developed country like America and is run by drug cartels and organised crime. Therefore it doesn't matter how strict their gun laws are if they aren't enforceable.

I would presume that you would agree that America is a more developed country and is NOT run by organised crime and drug cartels, if I'm wrong I stand corrected. God help you if you aren't as that is anarchy in the making.

[Papillon + 485]

16 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

You like to deal in generalities that you can twist to fit your agenda

Sir you have twisted everything in this whole conversation so it fits your love of guns narrative to be fair. Everyone but gun loving Americans can see that clearly. 

18 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Don't assume that your opinions are of any more value than anyone else's here. 

I don't assume that at all sir, I am merely trying to see some logic in the whole affair. You say it is important to follow tenets and yet the wording itself is famously debated. People pick and choose what they want from it, and bring up examples of other nations' history rather than their own. You suggest a coup of Mr Trump, so I assume citizens there have only had their guns for around three years then? Or has there been a coup now every year of everyone's lives there?

I ignore the facts. Laughable. Which facts? You wish us all to believe you all have firearms out of fear for government? Do you think we are all children sir? Maybe admit your government is a joke, that you fear it, and have no respect for it, and you deep down have no power even with guns, and users may start to believe this nonsense. You are very closed minded sir and this conversation is a waste of time quite frankly. Good luck with the stopping of the coup and the potential civil war over guns. I'm sure your handgun will do mightily well against a tank or bomb. Good day. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Papillon

[Marcin2 + 725]

On 1/14/2020 at 4:03 PM, Rob Plant said:

Marcin this does NOT mean they are disenfranchised with democracy!! It just means that they dont believe in our electoral system, they are 2 different things. The 20% will be largely from the Liberal Democratic party who would gain many more seats if we changed to proportional representation. I can assure you those voting Lib Dem believe in democracy!!

I think if you asked people in most democracies you would get 1 in 5 say they weren't happy with the system.

 

Rob, this is not the case what people think. 20% of people do not have proportionally high representation , so democracy has big problems.

Democracy is about majority rules, rights of minority are preserved.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[ronwagn + 6,290]

14 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

With respect Ron you compare apples with pears

Mexico is not a developed country like America and is run by drug cartels and organised crime. Therefore it doesn't matter how strict their gun laws are if they aren't enforceable.

I would presume that you would agree that America is a more developed country and is NOT run by organised crime and drug cartels, if I'm wrong I stand corrected. God help you if you aren't as that is anarchy in the making.

Mexico is a highly developed country Rob. 

15. Mexico

Mexico Nominal GDP: $1.27 trillion Mexico GDP (PPP): $2.57 trillion

 

Mexico, the second-largest economy in Latin America, is the 15th-largest economy in the world, with a nominal GDP of $1.22 trillion, while its GDP in terms of PPP is $2.57 trillion. The same are expected to touch $1.50 trillion and $3.18 trillion, respectively, by 2023. Back in 1980, Mexico was the 10th-largest economy, with a nominal GDP of $228.6 billion.

 

The economy expanded by 2.9% and 2% during 2016 and 2017. Over the next two years, the IMF projects a growth of 2.3% and 2.7%, respectively. The share of agriculture in the Mexican economy has remained under 4% over the last two decades, while its industry and services contribute around 33% and 63% to its output. Automotive, oil, and electronics are among the developed industries, while financial services and tourism are prominent contributors within services.

Rob, we have a very long border with Mexico. The cartels are (combined) more powerful and wealthy than many nations. The Mexican army cannot control them, or is not allowed to by the corrupt government. Just what do you think would happen if Americans were disarmed and the cartels had free reign along the border? The cartels are very well trained and capable of purchasing the best weaponry and technology money can buy.  Say you were a resident of El Paso, would you want to depend solely on the local police force? Our government has a hard time just keeping "innocent" illegal aliens out. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by ronwagn

[Rob Plant + 2,627]

2 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

Rob, this is not the case what people think, Chinese are very happy with their democracy with Chinese characteristic.

It is the case of cold FACT, I mean 2+2=4 unless it is 3 based number system than 2+2=11, 20% of people do not have proportionally high representation , by definition your democracy has big problems.

Democracy is about majority rules, rights of minority are preserved.

Oh China is a democracy well have you told them that? Unbelievable

"Democracy is about majority rules, rights of minority are preserved." Actually it is this

A political system that allows the citizens to participate in political decision‐making, or to elect representatives to government bodies. From: democracy in The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology »

Yes the majority gets its own way but they have free elections to vote on their leaders/rulers, China is no way a democracy.

The rest of what you say regarding the 20% is nonsense frankly, I have already explained why so Im not going to bother again, you clearly didnt understand.

[Papillon + 485]

Are we now comparing Chinese and UK democracies, when discussing American gun laws, on a thread about Iran sir? 

The senility check ups for some are long overdue here quite frankly. 

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Papillon

[Rob Plant + 2,627]

7 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Just what do you think would happen if Americans were disarmed and the cartels had free reign along the border? The cartels are very well trained and capable of purchasing the best weaponry and technology money can buy.  Say you were a resident of El Paso, would you want to depend solely on the local police force? Our government has a hard time just keeping "innocent" illegal aliens out. 

Ron are you suggesting that normal civilians patrol this border with their own guns and keep each other safe??

C'mon man this is clearly done by law enforcement or in the extreme military, and has nothing to do with privately owned guns.

Genuine question:- is there a big North v South divide where gun ownership is concerned? It strikes me that people in the South arm themselves to the teeth, but I dont think this is the case in many northern states. Please dont include "hunting" weapons in this as this is a different thing altogether.