What's the Endgame Here?

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

18 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Regarding conflicts and war and if Trump was allowed to do what he did by striking soulimani etc. We Brits are no different I don’t hear any rhetoric about the Thatcher war when we bombed the General Belgrano a troop carrier which was outside the exclusion zone heading for Argentina during the Falkland war. This was a proud day to be a UK citizen, watching our soldiers and government committing what amounts to war crimes.

We can’t have double standards we took out a non threatening target for a position of raising moral to the British public.

God save the queen and keep your hands off our territory.

Let’s see, they could fly A4 Skyhawks armed with Exocet missiles from the mainland (outside the Exclusion Zone), go out and rocket a British ship, then exit the exclusion zone and get away Scot (pun intended) free? I don’t think so! That ship was a valid target as you had no idea what it brought out to the fight, or what it would bring out in the future. Obviously the Brits had studied the disastrous consequences of Johnson and McNamara’s policy of excluding Hanoi, Haiphong and the MIG bases from attack in the Vietnam War.

If you are looking for a ‘proud British moment’ ask yourself what were British ships doing in Haiphong harbor when Nixon OK’d mining the harbor? The Brits had troops on the ground in the South!

[Papillon + 485]

@James Regan For your perusal sir.

Some US Bank and large US Companies funded the Germans in World War 2. One of these banks,The Union Bank run by Prescott Bush owned by George Herbert Walker was seized by the U.S in 1942 for trading with the Germans, under the trading with the enemy act.

Despite the depth of the World War II true causes, many people have unfortunately a very simple picture for WWII: Hitler was the bad guy and all the others the good guys trying to stop him. Could that be true?

Unfortunately things are not so simple even in fairy tales. The truth is much more complicated. In fact, many industrialists from all over the world, especially from countries that were at war with the Third Reich (e.g. USA), helped Germany and Adolf Hitler both prior and during the War. The biggest companies in USA were willing to give more to Germany than to their own country during the war! And the greatest German industrialists were practically left untouchable after the war despite of being found guilty by court of laws for crimes. Money does not care if you are German or American, money is money…

Specifically, the USSR received 2,586,000 tons of aviation fuel, an amount equal to 37% of what was produced in the Soviet Union during the war, plus almost 410,000 automobiles, making up 45% of the Red Army’s vehicle fleet (not counting cars captured from the enemy). 

This support also included machine tools, railway tracks, locomotives, rail cars, radar equipment, and other useful items without which a war machine can make little headway. Of course this list of lend-lease aid looks very impressive, and one might feel sincere admiration for the American partners in the anti-Hitler coalition, except for one tiny detail: US manufacturers were also supplying Nazi Germany at the same time …

For example, John D. Rockefeller Jr. owned a controlling interest in the Standard Oil corporation, but the next largest stockholder was the German chemical company I. G. Farben, through which the firm sold $20 million worth of gasoline and lubricants to the Nazis. 

And the Venezuelan branch of that company sent 13,000 tons of crude oil to Germany each month, which the Third Reich’s robust chemical industry immediately converted into gasoline. But business between the two nations was not limited to fuel sales – in addition, tungsten, synthetic rubber, and many different components for the auto industry were also being shipped across the Atlantic to the German Führer by Henry Ford. In particular, it is no secret that 30% of all the tires produced in his factories were used by the German Wehrmacht.

The full details of how the Fords and Rockefellers colluded to supply Nazi Germany are still not fully known because those were strictly guarded trade secrets, but even the little that has been made public and acknowledged by historians makes it clear that the war did not in any way slow the pace of the US trade with Berlin.

One of the top profiteers from the Iraq War was oil field services corporation, Halliburton. Halliburton gained $39.5 billion in "federal contracts related to the Iraq war". Many individuals have asserted that there were profit motives for the Bush-Cheney administration to invade Iraq in 2003.

Do you see a pattern Mr Regan? If not may I remind you of the name of this very website. 

The above are just a few examples of America funding both sides.

Now remind yourself of the thread title sir.

Respectfully, Papillon. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Papillon

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

3 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Well, you are ripe for a successful invasion in that case. Also defenseless if a future government becomes even worse than the one you just voted out. 

Not quite Ron

We don't need to arm untrained civilians we have our own military and nuclear weapons to defend our nation, so hardly defenceless.

I think the days of an uprising as you suggest are long gone, we live in a democracy where the incumbent government can only stay in power if its the will of the people.

I thought that was the same in the USA? but you still somehow arm everyone just in case?? you cannot be very confident in your own political system if you still need to do that!

Can Americans honestly see a day when the people will have to take up arms against their own government in the modern era??? If so WOW just WOW.

[James Regan + 1,776]

1 hour ago, Papillon said:

@James Regan For your perusal sir.

Some US Bank and large US Companies funded the Germans in World War 2. One of these banks,The Union Bank run by Prescott Bush owned by George Herbert Walker was seized by the U.S in 1942 for trading with the Germans, under the trading with the enemy act.

Despite the depth of the World War II true causes, many people have unfortunately a very simple picture for WWII: Hitler was the bad guy and all the others the good guys trying to stop him. Could that be true?

Unfortunately things are not so simple even in fairy tales. The truth is much more complicated. In fact, many industrialists from all over the world, especially from countries that were at war with the Third Reich (e.g. USA), helped Germany and Adolf Hitler both prior and during the War. The biggest companies in USA were willing to give more to Germany than to their own country during the war! And the greatest German industrialists were practically left untouchable after the war despite of being found guilty by court of laws for crimes. Money does not care if you are German or American, money is money…

Specifically, the USSR received 2,586,000 tons of aviation fuel, an amount equal to 37% of what was produced in the Soviet Union during the war, plus almost 410,000 automobiles, making up 45% of the Red Army’s vehicle fleet (not counting cars captured from the enemy). 

This support also included machine tools, railway tracks, locomotives, rail cars, radar equipment, and other useful items without which a war machine can make little headway. Of course this list of lend-lease aid looks very impressive, and one might feel sincere admiration for the American partners in the anti-Hitler coalition, except for one tiny detail: US manufacturers were also supplying Nazi Germany at the same time …

For example, John D. Rockefeller Jr. owned a controlling interest in the Standard Oil corporation, but the next largest stockholder was the German chemical company I. G. Farben, through which the firm sold $20 million worth of gasoline and lubricants to the Nazis. 

And the Venezuelan branch of that company sent 13,000 tons of crude oil to Germany each month, which the Third Reich’s robust chemical industry immediately converted into gasoline. But business between the two nations was not limited to fuel sales – in addition, tungsten, synthetic rubber, and many different components for the auto industry were also being shipped across the Atlantic to the German Führer by Henry Ford. In particular, it is no secret that 30% of all the tires produced in his factories were used by the German Wehrmacht.

The full details of how the Fords and Rockefellers colluded to supply Nazi Germany are still not fully known because those were strictly guarded trade secrets, but even the little that has been made public and acknowledged by historians makes it clear that the war did not in any way slow the pace of the US trade with Berlin.

One of the top profiteers from the Iraq War was oil field services corporation, Halliburton. Halliburton gained $39.5 billion in "federal contracts related to the Iraq war". Many individuals have asserted that there were profit motives for the Bush-Cheney administration to invade Iraq in 2003.

Do you see a pattern Mr Regan? If not may I remind you of the name of this very website. 

The above are just a few examples of America funding both sides.

Now remind yourself of the thread title sir.

Respectfully, Papillon. 

Your 100% historically correct 👏👏

[Papillon + 485]

24 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

you cannot be very confident in your own political system if you still need to do that!

this ^

24 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Can Americans honestly see a day when the people will have to take up arms against their own government in the modern era??? If so WOW just WOW.

this ^

Edited January 14, 2020 by Papillon
Perfect phrasing.

[Papillon + 485]

3 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Your 100% historically correct 👏👏

Thankyou sir. I try to not base opinion based on Hollywood's portrayal of events. I find facts more helpful personally. 

[James Regan + 1,776]

2 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Let’s see, they could fly A4 Skyhawks armed with Exocet missiles from the mainland (outside the Exclusion Zone), go out and rocket a British ship, then exit the exclusion zone and get away Scot (pun intended) free? I don’t think so! That ship was a valid target as you had no idea what it brought out to the fight, or what it would bring out in the future. Obviously the Brits had studied the disastrous consequences of Johnson and McNamara’s policy of excluding Hanoi, Haiphong and the MIG bases from attack in the Vietnam War.

If you are looking for a ‘proud British moment’ ask yourself what were British ships doing in Haiphong harbor when Nixon OK’d mining the harbor? The Brits had troops on the ground in the South!

Regarding the Belgrano incident it was technically not a legal target, I have privileged information from Cheltnham GCHQ first hand info of a message from Whitehall whereby MT was informed that under the rules of engagement it was not a legal target the call was made to sink it due to the previous stack on HMS Sheffield and the need for the British public’s requirement of a boost of morale.

Not really read up enough on Vietnam and the Haiphong incident but sense Doug that your being sarcastic towards me in a proxy attack on others , I don’t appreciate being used as a puppet in a muppet show type debate. Respectfully as a friend I disagree through my black of knowledge on said theatre but will study it at give you a worthy reply.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

2 hours ago, James Regan said:

Lots of shotguns for gentleman hunters, hounds and horses “damn your eyes man”

No not fox hunting James

The vast majority of shotguns are owned legally by farmers. Why I have no idea, I think they must be frightened of badgers, rabbits and foxes as that is all there is left to kill in our countryside! The rest are owned by clay pigeon enthusiasts.

A friend of mine owns a shotgun as he claimed he went clay pigeon shooting on a regular basis, this is BS as he has been once in 10 years. He finally admitted that as he lives in the country he likes the security of having it there. The fact it is locked in a gun cabinet and the ammunition is also locked away seems to have escaped him and therefore the purpose of having it in the first place!

The handguns are for legal shooting clubs.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

31 minutes ago, James Regan said:

Regarding the Belgrano incident it was technically not a legal target, I have privileged information from Cheltnham GCHQ first hand info of a message from Whitehall whereby MT was informed that under the rules of engagement it was not a legal target the call was made to sink it due to the previous stack on HMS Sheffield and the need for the British public’s requirement of a boost of morale.

Not really read up enough on Vietnam and the Haiphong incident but sense Doug that your being sarcastic towards me in a proxy attack on others , I don’t appreciate being used as a puppet in a muppet show type debate. Respectfully as a friend I disagree through my black of knowledge on said theatre but will study it at give you a worthy reply.

James, you misguided, muttonheaded fool. If you place rules on yourselves in a time of war, handing the advantage to the enemy by allowing them a ‘safe haven’, then you deserve defeat.

Anything capable of transporting ‘bullets, beans or boots’ to the enemy is a valid target.

If this vessel was not an enemy asset, what was it doing visiting the war zone during ongoing hostilities? If it was not a hospital ship, marked as such....it was a valid target to any military mind, although a politician may try to argue otherwise.

If you want a classic study of how a civilian, with no military experience, can get thousands of your soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines killed for absolutely no tactical or strategic benefit, look no further than Mr. McNamara, on Johnson’s staff, during the Vietnam War. He wrote an apologetic memoir later, which surely comforted the dead.

I seriously doubt that a professional in GCHQ told you anything! They frown on that sort of thing...nice try though!

Edited January 14, 2020 by Douglas Buckland
Misspelling

[James Regan + 1,776]

2 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

No not fox hunting James

The vast majority of shotguns are owned legally by farmers. Why I have no idea, I think they must be frightened of badgers, rabbits and foxes as that is all there is left to kill in our countryside! The rest are owned by clay pigeon enthusiasts.

A friend of mine owns a shotgun as he claimed he went clay pigeon shooting on a regular basis, this is BS as he has been once in 10 years. He finally admitted that as he lives in the country he likes the security of having it there. The fact it is locked in a gun cabinet and the ammunition is also locked away seems to have escaped him and therefore the purpose of having it in the first place!

The handguns are for legal shooting clubs.

I was one of them I lived in a city and had a shotgun, me and my brother were vetted by the gun squad of the local Babylon and granted a license but we had to proove that we had land to Shooty shooty on, we did as a friend was a Gillies son on the river north Esk in Angus, the interview was conducted at 2200hrs on a Saturday night in out flat in Aberdeen , very sneaky indeed, we were just about to leave the house for a rave when CID showed up, we explained our reason for required gun although living in an area where only seagulls would have been fair game and possibly the guy who lived above us who was  very obnoxious ( but he was educated at a later date with hand tools ) they gave us the permit to rough shoot and hold two shotguns 12 bore in a city flat in a secured gun safe with unlimited amounts of ammunition. So basically drug crazed idiots are ok to get tooled up, apparently, this may tie into the need for more thorough back ground checks which are a hot topic in the USA 🇺🇸.

A few weeks later one of my ex mates robbed my flat stole the whole gun safe and 3000 rounds, I was popular with the local babylons then. It was put in the hands of the serious crimes squad, they were great as me and my bro were model citizens victims of a bad crime.

i found out a few weeks later that the guns both very nice had been sawn off and buried in a local junkies back garden, so we paid a visit to one of his friends who had some of our stuff and persuaded him to give it back which he did but only after a “ conversation “. The guns were the main event, once we got the info we had to both go back offshore but had planned a visit the moment we got back, it was going to be a group visit, that’s group of me and some scary friends. Looking fwd to the get together while offshore I read in the newspaper yo my absolute horror that the individual had been found dead of an overdose in the street. I was gutted as he got lucky and we never got to see where the guns were buried.

After that episode no more guns for me, I still had a permit but realized that one day goose shooting a year wasnt worth the risk.

[James Regan + 1,776]

5 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

seriously doubt that a professional in GCHQ told you anything! They frown on that sort of thing...nice try though!

So your now attempting to doubt my integrity, just cut to the chase and call me a liar. I don’t need to prove anything to you and this just shows your typical American attitude being of know it all status. I have no reason to lie maybe I have been lied to but I am not in the habit of telling fibs or bullshitting to try and win a discussion on a public forum, you have insulted me Doug. It’s not just you you know who had special info or contacts it’s not only Americans who leak sensitive info, we have had a few Kim Filby etc. But every story from a yanks mouth is like a bloody Tom Clancy novel and we have to believe it.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

26 minutes ago, James Regan said:

they gave us the permit to rough shoot and hold two shotguns

I think I saw those in Lock Stock 😂

You're a dark horse Mr.R

[James Regan + 1,776]

1 minute ago, Rob Plant said:

I think I saw those in Lock Stock 😂

You're a dark horse Mr.R

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

24 minutes ago, James Regan said:

So your now attempting to doubt my integrity, just cut to the chase and call me a liar. I don’t need to prove anything to you and this just shows your typical American attitude being of know it all status. I have no reason to lie maybe I have been lied to but I am not in the habit of telling fibs or bullshitting to try and win a discussion on a public forum, you have insulted me Doug. It’s not just you you know who had special info or contacts it’s not only Americans who leak sensitive info, we have had a few Kim Filby etc. But every story from a yanks mouth is like a bloody Tom Clancy novel and we have to believe it.

James....you’re a Subsea Engineer...of course you ‘fib’/BS! Please carry on.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Ahhh...the dreaded Red Arrow of Death. Guess I can’t expect a Christmas card this year...and you still don’t have an ‘in’ with GCHQ.

[James Regan + 1,776]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Ahhh...the dreaded Red Arrow of Death. Guess I can’t expect a Christmas card this year...and you still don’t have an ‘in’ with GCHQ.

His name was Martin Decker google him 🖖🏻

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

15 minutes ago, James Regan said:

His name was Martin Decker google him 🖖🏻

Martin Decker was a known GCHQ wannabee! How can you honestly use him as a credible source.

Try again Sherlock!

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Virginia looks to be the test case by far left liberals to illegally take away legally owned guns from U.S. citizens. 

At some point this year, I expect the brewing discontent from legal gun owners to go head to head against state law enforcement who want to seize legal guns.

I own a gun.  Not a chance in hell I'm giving it up.  It was my birthday present for my 12th birthday.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

The village is obviously large enough to support at least one village idiot! Each village is usually required to support at least one...

[James Regan + 1,776]

Just now, Douglas Buckland said:

The village is obviously large enough to support at least one village idiot! Each village is usually required to support at least one...

Most vacancies are filled but I’m sure there’s one near you looking!!!

[ronwagn + 6,290]

4 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Not quite Ron

We don't need to arm untrained civilians we have our own military and nuclear weapons to defend our nation, so hardly defenceless.

I think the days of an uprising as you suggest are long gone, we live in a democracy where the incumbent government can only stay in power if its the will of the people.

I thought that was the same in the USA? but you still somehow arm everyone just in case?? you cannot be very confident in your own political system if you still need to do that!

Can Americans honestly see a day when the people will have to take up arms against their own government in the modern era??? If so WOW just WOW.

Let history be your teacher.

Edited January 14, 2020 by ronwagn
added reference

[Papillon + 485]

You didn't answer any of Mr Plant's questions sir and your pictures are generally in reference to other nations. Is their history relevant to the USA? When you suggest 'let history be your teacher' for example, maybe the Middle East and the last thirty years taught you something?

Or do you ignore that part of recent history as you are too busy focusing on the history of other nations entirely? 

To be fair all I am seeing is an NRA poster, which unsurprisingly is pro guns, then one of the pictures has a reference to Mr Obama, as the comparisons are somewhat of a hobby here, and the other two I believe are China and Germany? Believe it or not, even a discussion about American gun laws mentions China here. 

So the USA bases its values and teachings on the histories of other nations does it now, or is this some form of convenient 'other side of the world' history that you apply to your own nation as and when you wish, to justify an obsession with guns? 

We can all conclude what the answers are to Mr Plant's questions therefore from your lack of response. Your government is a joke, you have no confidence in it and you fear it. Plain and simple. Welcome to the land of the free. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Papillon

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

Yep all of those pictures are from modern democracies aren't they!!!

No war pictures of genocide at all!!

Well apart from the American ones anyway, you guys clearly need guns to control yourselves otherwise your " developed" society resorts to anarchy!  Loads of belief in your own political systems NOT

Lovely way to live!!

I guess the concept of proper gun control and law and order that most other democracies practice in the Western world is a concept you guys just cannot grasp. You're all so hung up about your precious outdated 2nd amendment that its all justifiable to you.

Carry on killing each other if that's what you like doing but instead of being a progressive hegemony world leader you're stuck in the 1900's on this.

Why don't you Americans stop hiding behind the 2nd amendment and just admit you like guns because they make you feel all strong and powerful, I think they might be a replacement for other inadeqacies

Oh but thanks for educating me!

 

[PE Scott + 563]

29 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Why don't you Americans stop hiding behind the 2nd amendment and just admit you like guns because they make you feel all strong and powerful, I think they might be a replacement for other inadeqacies

All though I'll admit I probably know a couple guys that fit this description, I think by and large this isn't the case for most Americans. 

If any of you ever venture out to my part of the world, please let me know so I can take you to a 3 gun course or maybe to just plink some steel in the dessert.......I challenge you not to have a good time!

 

Edit: Between the big truck, fast cars, motorcycles and abundance of guns I own, you guys should be awarding me purple sympathy trophies in light of my microscopic penis and the challenges I've faced. Maybe, with your help, I can finally feel confident and safe enough to face the day!

Edited January 14, 2020 by PE Scott

[Marcin2 + 726]

 

An interesting observation.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Marcin2
typo