China gets caught?

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Nearly every invention of any substance in the 20th century was made by people without Masters, PHd degrees.

PHD/Masters are the adjunct support staff at best.  Those with PHds in the real world  are too stupid to grasp the larger picture and are not the ones with the inventions.  Why they get brought in on a short term basis to look at one tiny aspect and then get fired soon after as they by and large are useless at anything else as they are too rigid. 

PS: All the INS(internal navigation systems) in downwell bore holes, missiles to Mars, Excalibur artillery etc.... all done by guys without PH'ds and Masters.  Ok, a couple of them got Masters in their 50's.  All the guys designing aircraft... Not a PHD in sight.  The guys who invented what we today call DSL & Cable were done by a bunch of guys who did not even have BS Engineering degrees let alone PH'ds.  They were interested in the subject and self taught themselves.  

All a PHD means is that you are disciplined, and dedicated to spending money you have not earned on education instead of teaching yourself. 

PhDs definitely do not get you the inventive drive and inspiration. But they do provide knowledge and experience. They also demand solid proof and grew up with peer review, so are consensus minded, not quite the thing you want in wild west kinds of technological leaps etc. 

Inventions of substance is a bit difficult to review quantitatively

But much of the patents literature has PhDs on it 

There are different things here. Development projects use PhDs largely for consulting or if a complex or specialized problem pops up.  They are more useful in the research phases where hardly anyone knows which way is up.. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

Doubtful. but you are right that engineers rarely get a phd; they are much more common outside of the faculty of engineering.

Outside of engineering, medicine, no one needs to go to university at all.  2 year Technical school? Ok.  Heck, most engineering jobs only need a 2 year degree at best.  Couple of my jobs I learned the material myself and why I got the jobs to begin with.  Not one course taken.  Pretty much, vast majority of degree fields are 100% waste of money.  Why?  University is not a place to learn how to think(logic/apologetics courses have been gone for over a century now), rather they are telling you WHAT to think to pass a test which proves... nothing really other than you are not abjectly stupid/lazy.   

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

46 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

But much of the patents literature has PhDs on it 

There are different things here. Development projects use PhDs largely for consulting or if a complex or specialized problem pops up.  They are more useful in the research phases where hardly anyone knows which way is up.. 

Recent stuff due to world demanding certificates as hiring has gone to dedicated HR departments who know nothing about engineering etc and the engineers who used to do the hiring are not in the process.  So, WHO gets in to be interviewed gets passed through a sieve of abject idiots who all know they are abject idiots and to compensate go for certificates.

[0R0 + 6,251]

34 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Recent stuff due to world demanding certificates as hiring has gone to dedicated HR departments who know nothing about engineering etc and the engineers who used to do the hiring are not in the process.  So, WHO gets in to be interviewed gets passed through a sieve of abject idiots who all know they are abject idiots and to compensate go for certificates.

Agree about HR zombies. 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

56 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Outside of engineering, medicine, no one needs to go to university at all.  2 year Technical school? Ok.  Heck, most engineering jobs only need a 2 year degree at best.  Couple of my jobs I learned the material myself and why I got the jobs to begin with.  Not one course taken.  Pretty much, vast majority of degree fields are 100% waste of money.  Why?  University is not a place to learn how to think(logic/apologetics courses have been gone for over a century now), rather they are telling you WHAT to think to pass a test which proves... nothing really other than you are not abjectly stupid/lazy.   

I liked university.  You are right that at my lab the majority of employees only had technical school diplomas.

One thing about university, for the sciences, is that the labs are hands-on. Some students can rock the exams but in the lab they are worthless. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Marcin2 + 726]

An interesting observation

Edited May 15, 2020 by Marcin2
typo

[Otis11 + 551]

 

8 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Very interesting discussion between Rob and Douglass. Both make excellent points. My two cents is that the US has an excellent, but highly flawed secondary education system. While the number of teachers has remained fairly static for the past 40 years (about how long I've been away from University), the number of administrators has skyrocketed. Meanwhile the cost of tuition has been rising exponentially. In addition, banks who wouldn't give most of us the time of day, let alone a six figure loan, have zero problem loaning hundreds of thousands to 18 year olds who want to go to college to "find themselves". Snowflakes encouraged to apply. 

Finally, the sad state of public school education in this country is so horrific that students aiming at STEM degrees are generally wholly unprepared. My friends who are professors have documented this trend for decades. Colleges have had to create classes to get the current crop of uneducated Americans up to what previously was merely high school equivalency. 

So, Douglass, while I believe you are totally correct for your era, current events says otherwise. We need the best immigrants we can get, especially in STEM, fortunately or not. 

 

8 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

Number 70 or 72% of students are international are wrong ( at least in STEM subjects ).

55% master degress

44% doctorates

in stem by foreign students.

As high as 70% it gets only in electronics Broad field in doctorates.

(at least per NSF)

In technical fields (STEM) the ratio is more skewed towards international students.

Much of this is due to the Americam students not having the desire to get a MS or PhD... they just don't make economic sense anymore. The lost income generation alone (unless you do it at nights while working) overpowers that equation. 

Foreign students have a different economic equation because the choices are 1)do MS or PhD in the US, or 2)go back to home country try to work. (Sometimes they can get a 3rd option to work for a US company on a green card, but that's giving up certainty to stay here under option 1 in order to make more money, so risky. If they get a super specialized skillset the risk of not getting a sponsored greencard goes down)

And yes, automatic admission programs are exacerbating the already desperate issue of our chronically incompetent primary education system here...

And kudos for catching the reason Secondary education is skyrocketing in costs is due to the paper pushing administrative staff that's not actually necessary... more people don't realize that. Could be cut easily if the schools had incentive to cut costs. But with student loans and government subsidies so readily availible kids can get $300k+ and are willing to pay it. So...

Edited February 4, 2020 by Otis11
I should have looked at who posted that... Ward. Now less surprised. 😋

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

13 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Not at all!

Im not advocating educate foreign students at the detriment to American ones, I'm advocating educating and retaining those that have got their degrees within American society, whether they be American or otherwise.

I just dont get the argument that they need to go "home" after they are qualified, surely you should try to retain and develop further the knowledge they have gained??

What is the point of even having a ‘student visa’ if the student is not required to follow the terms of the visa?

A student visa is NOT a green card. If they complete their studies they need to return ‘home’ as per the visa. If they have organized to become employed in the US while they were studying, great. Return home and go through the process of an ‘immigrant’ visa - just like everyone else.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

6 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

What is the point of even having a ‘student visa’ if the student is not required to follow the terms of the visa?

A student visa is NOT a green card. If they complete their studies they need to return ‘home’ as per the visa. If they have organized to become employed in the US while they were studying, great. Return home and go through the process of an ‘immigrant’ visa - just like everyone else.

Not necessarily true.

Under NAFTA, as a chemist, I was considered a "commodity."  I could have worked in the states without much difficulty.

Need to read the new version to see if some of that still exists.

"(a) General. Under section 214(e) of the Act, a citizen of Canada or Mexico who seeks temporary entry as a business person to engage in business activities at a professional level may be admitted to the United States in accordance with the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

8 CFR 214.6(b)

(b) Definitions. As used in this section, the terms:

Business activities at a professional level means those undertakings which require that, for successful completion, the individual has a least a baccalaureate degree or appropriate credentials demonstrating status as a professional in a profession set forth in Appendix 1603.D.1 of the NAFTA."

https://www.nafsa.org/_/file/_/amresource/8cfr2146.htm

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

3 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

What is the point of even having a ‘student visa’ if the student is not required to follow the terms of the visa?

A student visa is NOT a green card. If they complete their studies they need to return ‘home’ as per the visa. If they have organized to become employed in the US while they were studying, great. Return home and go through the process of an ‘immigrant’ visa - just like everyone else.

2 things on this

first if the student is a high flyer then they should be encouraged to seek employment with an American company, return “home” as per their student visa and follow the relevant channels to come back to the US to work which will be to the benefit of the US. 
Secondly why can’t the student visa system be amended for students who are considered exceptional? This way they could stay and work for a US company to the benefit of the US instead of running the risk of losing that exceptional talent to a company back “home” or to another country (China maybe)

just because your student visa system exists doesn’t mean it has to remain as it is without any chance of amendments as this is to the detriment of America IMO

i get your points Douglas and respect them I just believe the most important thing in the modern era is to try to hang on to the best people no matter what the industry as it’s ultimately good people that make a business work and be successful.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Rob Plant

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Rob,

I believe that you are from the UK...could be wrong. Regardless, how is this ‘exceptional student’ issue handled where you are from?

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

4 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

What is the point of even having a ‘student visa’ if the student is not required to follow the terms of the visa?

A student visa is NOT a green card. If they complete their studies they need to return ‘home’ as per the visa. If they have organized to become employed in the US while they were studying, great. Return home and go through the process of an ‘immigrant’ visa - just like everyone else.

Finding job while at school before graduation.... yea right.  Only ever happens if you have already interned the summer previously.  Give 6 months to find a job post graduate. 

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

Rob,

I believe that you are from the UK...could be wrong. Regardless, how is this ‘exceptional student’ issue handled where you are from?

Yeah I'm a Brit

Until recently (I think September 2019) foreign students were allowed up to 4 months to find work after graduation and then they could stay in the UK. We also were part of the EU which allows free movement of people to live and work. Now we have left the EU so have looked at this more closely and amended the foreign student visa requirements (or more precisely amended them from September 2019) so that a post grad foreign student can live in the UK for up to 2 years seeking work. I would have thought those "exceptional" foreign students would have no problem in doing so in that time frame and the average student may find it a lot more difficult and choose to go back home or elsewhere where there is less competition for jobs and probably a less costly standard of living (ie India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Eastern Europe etc). To steal a phrase from Darwin call it "natural selection".

This is all to do with the UK trying to retain top talent. We have several world renowned universities and it would be crazy of us to educate top talent for it to be lost back "home" IMO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49655719

 

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

I could possibly agree with you as far as ‘exceptionally talented’ students are concerned. I seriously doubt that there are a significant number of ‘exceptionally talented’ foreign students in either the US or the UK....so the whole discussion may be a storm in a teacup.

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

1 hour ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I could possibly agree with you as far as ‘exceptionally talented’ students are concerned. I seriously doubt that there are a significant number of ‘exceptionally talented’ foreign students in either the US or the UK....so the whole discussion may be a storm in a teacup.

Really??

In the UK we had 450,000 international students last year, the USA had 1,000,000. 

I would be amazed if several thousand if not tens of thousands weren't exceptionally talented.

I guess it comes down to your definition of exceptionally talented, but for me I'd be trying my best to hang onto these guys.

As i touched on before you either use em or lose em. I for one don't think either country can afford to lose the talent of tomorrow to foreign shores. Particularly at present as @Marcin2 points out, the financial temptations the likes of China are offering are not insignificant.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Okay, you win.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

2 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Really??

 

Just put on the red, white, and blue tinted glasses and it becomes clear.

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

20 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Face it globalism is here to stay.

Globaloney

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

9 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Just put on the red, white, and blue tinted glasses and it becomes clear.

 

Those are French....correct?

[Otis11 + 551]

20 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Finding job while at school before graduation.... yea right.  Only ever happens if you have already interned the summer previously.  Give 6 months to find a job post graduate. 

Depends on the target industry, the degree received, the students performance, economic conditions, and a whole host of other factors, but no... often not.

I work with an awful lot of college students (granted, top of the top and almost exclusively in STEM fields) - if we don't get them offers 6 months before graduation, they're already committed somewhere else... and they're entertaining multiple offers.

@Rob Plant - agreed... but food for thought. We need to make it easier to retain those who are truly exceptionally talented,  but we also currently have a large problem with companies using this excuse to hire green card candidates for $60k saying they can't fill the position, when there are plenty of Americans willing and capable, just the market rate is $85k for that skillset... and thereby depressing wages. I think that's the point @Douglas Bucklandis getting at. We hire a lot who are simply willing to accept lower wages as it allows them to stay instead of going home as they agreed... even though there's nothing particularly special about them.

[robpublicagain + 6]

Silly scientist, all that sneaking around - all he had to do has open a hotel and put his name on a big old sign and put it on the front of it.

Maybe a couple hotels placed strategically around the world - close to the people with money.

Sure he would have to pay taxes on the income, but the 1% know how to pay taxes.

 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

On 2/4/2020 at 9:33 PM, Douglas Buckland said:

Okay, you win.

Not so fast, Douglas.  Have no fear; Underdog is here!

One country that sends (allows) their citizens to travel to the U.S. (I can't speak to other countries) for an education screens these same citizens before they are allowed to pass their applications, applications within their own country to be allowed out for education.  During screening, they are "briefed" on their value to the State, that they will "of course" want to bring their educated minds back home to benefit the State that has benefitted them so far, and has benefitted their families and countrymen/women.  If a prospective student shows both a high intelligence and an abundance of patriotism, the State will tag them as candidates for even further service to the State.  Next step: indoctrinate them into a "path to success and higher level employment" in their host country.  They essentially mass recruit possible or likely State spies and send them off to explore the world and bring back whatever bounty they can.  Highly successful candidates can later be guided toward the jewels of certain companies and even State secrets, again all from their host country.

A final word on this: Most of these citizens/students wants to return to their homeland anyway, to bring their education and experience to the fore in companies back in the home country, thus contributing to the homeland and their own families and friends.

So, at least for the country I'm talking about, you can try to retain the winners, but you might actually be enabling the spies.  Good hunting! 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Dan Warnick

[Rob Plant + 2,756]

12 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Not so fast, Douglas.  Have no fear; Underdog is here!

One country that sends (allows) their citizens to travel to the U.S. (I can't speak to other countries) for an education screens these same citizens before they are allowed to pass their applications, applications within their own country to be allowed out for education.  During screening, they are "briefed" on their value to the State, that they will "of course" want to bring their educated minds back home to benefit the State that has benefitted them so far, and has benefitted their families and countrymen/women.  If a perspective student shows both a high intelligence and an abundance of patriotism, the State will tag them as candidates for even further service to the State.  Next step: indoctrinate them into a "path to success and higher level employment" in their host country.  They essentially mass recruit possible or likely State spies and send them off to explore the world and bring back whatever bounty they can.  Highly successful candidates can later be guided toward the jewels of certain companies and even State secrets, again all from their host country.

A final word on this: Most of these citizens/students wants to return to their homeland anyway, to bring their education and experience to the fore in companies back in the home country, thus contributing to the homeland and their own families and friends.

So, at least for the country I'm talking about, you can try to retain the winners, but you might actually be enabling the spies.  Good hunting! 

Haha you've watched too many James Bond films Dan!

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

7 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Haha you've watched too many James Bond films Dan!

Doesn't everyone?  But in my case, I can speak from experience.  And from a decade living and working with the people of whom I speak.

[Tom Nolan + 2,443]

On 1/29/2020 at 4:27 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

Related, but from Canada:

Did China Steal Coronavirus From Canada And Weaponize It?

Last year a mysterious shipment was caught smuggling Coronavirus from Canada. It was traced to Chinese agents working at a Canadian lab. Subsequent investigation by GreatGameIndia linked the agents to Chinese Biological Warfare Program from where the virus is suspected to have leaked causing the Wuhan Coronavirus outbreak.  ...

Thanks again Tom.

The website Great Game India has some well sourced, linked information.  Those folks have been doing a good job of following the trail on this.    https://greatgameindia.com/