Germany’s overdose of renewable energy

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Put 'em up!

And my "Great" State:

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

There isn't room here for the U.S. Debt Clock.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Just so you Brits don't get too big a head:

P.S. Please get a digital debt clock.  Those little flippers are hard to capture in a snapshot.  If you can afford one, that is.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

Regardless of which site the info is sourced from, once you look at the all important data of debt per GDP and debt per capita, California suddenly looks rather normal. Funny how the right wing narrative overlooks this. 

Here is Mitch McConnell's welfare state:

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Mitch knows debt and he knows how to use it!  (Hey, that reminds me of ZZ Top, Legs)

But his Debt per citizen number has Cali and IL beat.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

59 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Are you guys going to argue over debt in the United States?  Seriously?  We haven't had a debt free year at the federal level since 

January 8, 1835

 

On January 8, 1835, President Andrew Jackson achieves his goal of entirely paying off the United States' national debt. It was the only time in U.S. history that the national debt stood at zero, and it precipitated one of the worst financial crises in American history.Aug 29, 2019

No, he is saying that California is solvent and doing well, I am saying it is insolvent, continuously raising taxes, constantly expecting Federal handouts and is essentially a leech on the other 48 states butt (not 49 as New York is also a leech).

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

6 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

No, he is saying that California is solvent and doing well, I am saying it is insolvent, continuously raising taxes, constantly expecting Federal handouts and is essentially a leech on the other 48 states butt (not 49 as New York is also a leech).

I'm guessing you hadn't seen the next page yet... 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

8 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Mitch knows debt and he knows how to use it!  (Hey, that reminds me of ZZ Top, Legs)

But his Debt per citizen number has Cali and IL beat.

Great album! On my motorcycle-washing iPod.

You can make statistics ‘prove’ just about anything you want if you select your criteria carefully. A trick all engineers know.

But my original question was why is California, which touts itself as the fifth largest economy on the planet, rated No. 1 in debt among the 50 states, continually raising taxes and constantly looking for federal money? I never compared it to other stares as NONE of them claim a rating in the ratings of world economies.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

51 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The more important and relevant figures are:

Debt per GDP we rank 24th worst in the nation behind states such as Kentucky 2nd, W. Virginia 4th,Arkansas 7th, Alaska 11th, Alabama 13th,Pennsylvania 15th, N.Dakota 17th, Texas 18th, Louisiana 19th. 

Debt per capita we rank 11th worst behind states such as N.Dakota 9th and Alaska 5th.c

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/state_spending_rank_2020hH0C

You seem bent on deflecting! Don’t compare to other states that have no comparable economies (remember, California claims to be the fifth largest global economy). Why does California, which is such a money making machine and a huge economy in and of itself, run a debt in the hundreds of billions of dollars (the next ranked state is in the tens of billions)?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

Just now, Douglas Buckland said:

Great album! On my motorcycle-washing iPod.

You can make statistics ‘prove’ just about anything you want if you select your criteria carefully. A trick all engineers know.

But my original question was why is California, which touts itself as the fifth largest economy on the planet, rated No. 1 in debt among the 50 states, continually raising taxes and constantly looking for federal money? I never compared it to other stares as NONE of them claim a rating in the ratings of world economies.

 

You really are impervious to information that doesn't fit your narrative. You did compare California to the other states by saying it is rated No.1 in debt among the 50 states. We are pointing out that California is not rated No.1 in debt per capita or debt per GDP. These two measures are what matter. We have the highest total debt because we are the largest state by both total GDP and total population.

And your hand waiving away of statistics you don't like but accepting statistics you do like is getting laughable. You are using that old engineers trick of using statistics to prove anything you want when the only statistic you accept is the one that you say proves your point. In this case it is that CA has the absolute highest debt of all the states and this is all that matters. 

I know you won't accept this but here is a view of federal handouts and this does not account for the excess money we pay in taxes.

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

Okay, you win!

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

47 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

You seem bent on deflecting! Don’t compare to other states that have no comparable economies (remember, California claims to be the fifth largest global economy). Why does California, which is such a money making machine and a huge economy in and of itself, run a debt in the hundreds of billions of dollars (the next ranked state is in the tens of billions)?

Deflecting you to the proper economic measurements because I am an economist! Just like you would deflect me to the proper engineering measurement because you are an engineer. Per capita and per GDP debt reflect the ability to repay the debt and thus the true debt burden. The absolute debt number only matters for coming up with these other two numbers.

In your world I suppose it might be like me making a big deal about the weight of a bridge and you pointing out that it is actually the load bearing ratios that matter, not the absolute weight of the bridge.

You say that CA runs a deb in the hundreds of billions with the next ranked state in tens of billions. A few posts back @Dan Warnick provided debt numbers from the debt clock with California at $549 billion and Texas at $322 billion. Texas and a lot of other states like NY run debt in the hundreds of billions.

If you look at the wiki page on national public debt by country it doesn't even list the absolute numbers, just per GDP and per capita. Why? Because those are the two  economic metrics that actually matter!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

California has the biggest debt because we are the biggest state. That is how things work in economics, the bigger you are the more absolute leverage you can take advantage of. No matter where you look in the world the biggest economies have the biggest absolute debts. There are no big economies that are debt free, anywhere!

The economies that are bigger than us are US, China, Japan, Germany and India. Are any of them debt free? Or are they loaded up on absolute debt? I have to compare us to countries because they are the only economies bigger than us. Texas on the other hand is smaller than us and has a proportionally smaller debt.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

Looking more at the Federal Aid map I just have to observe that 13 of the top 14 federal welfare states are all deep red! 

[NickW + 2,714]

2 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Just so you Brits don't get too big a head:

P.S. Please get a digital debt clock.  Those little flippers are hard to capture in a snapshot.  If you can afford one, that is.

Seeing the Corona Virus issue coming, and having inherited the proceeds of my fathers estate I decided to safely plonk £50K of it  in national savings premium Bonds in February. So I accounted for Britains PSBR for  31 seconds!

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

A true Patriot!

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

12 minutes ago, NickW said:

Seeing the Corona Virus issue coming, and having inherited the proceeds of my fathers estate I decided to safely plonk £50K of it  in national savings premium Bonds in February. So I accounted for Britains PSBR for  31 seconds!

I bought Canada savings bonds for years - biweekly instalments directly taken from my paycheck.

Stupid government / citizens forced it to shut down.  There was so little investment by Canadians in their own country that the fund cost more to manage than it made.  Sad - we would rather borrow from foreign powers than our own people. 

[NickW + 2,714]

17 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I bought Canada savings bonds for years - biweekly instalments directly taken from my paycheck.

Stupid government / citizens forced it to shut down.  There was so little investment by Canadians in their own country that the fund cost more to manage than it made.  Sad - we would rather borrow from foreign powers than our own people. 

premium Bonds actually act as a form of lottery where you keep your stake money. The interest is awarded in prizes each month from £25 to £1 million. If have £50K worth you normally win £25-£75 a month. 

Secure way to watch your savings deflate slowly as the return of the last 10 years has generally been below RPI. 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

2 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Looking more at the Federal Aid map I just have to observe that 13 of the top 14 federal welfare states are all deep red! 

And you just keep on winning! Absolutely amazing! Keep up the good work...👍🏻

[specinho + 470]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:08 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

Incorrect calculation of cost.

The correct calculation of cost is "renewables" + storage + fossil fuels (for when "renewables" fail to produce energy.)

So ...  the cost choice is:

A) use the existing fossil fuel systems.

B) use the existing fossil fuel systems +  graft on additional "renewable" energy systems + the cost of huge batteries for temporary storage of electricity + plus the cost of paying tax incentives to those companies providing "renewable" energy systems.

Hmmmm, is option A or option B more cost effective 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

There might be another option: turn the electricity collected from solar and wind farms into steam directly?? The steam turbines could multiply  the amount of electricity generated many folds in a self sustaining mode??

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 5/3/2020 at 7:21 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

P.S. In February the US produced more electricity from hydro, wind and solar than coal. We are on track for all of Q1 to do the same.

You have quoted me as using this meme.  I did not use the meme; I quoted someone else who used the meme.  Please correct this. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

14 minutes ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

You have quoted me as using this meme.  I did not use the meme; I quoted someone else who used the meme.  Please correct this. 

Done. Wish the forum software would quote the original author.

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 5/14/2020 at 4:54 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Done. Wish the forum software would quote the original author.

I figured it was something like that, but I was too tired to tap a more cordial response into my phone.  My apologies for being curt. 

[BenFranklin'sSpectacles + 762]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:51 AM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

No. They will sink more money into storage solutions. It is already happening. Basically the calculation power generators are making is now : what is cheaper - a gas powered power plant or a battery farm. If they had done the calculation as renewables + storage vs fossil fuel then it would be different (and that is probably Toms point), but nothing changes where they are now. And to add to this - as renewables (and storage generate scale) then they will become cheaper. Look at their cost curve over the past 10 years. 

It business 101. It is actually quite simple. 

What you're saying is that the government poured billions of dollars into distorting the market, which created a massive problem. As a result,  billions more will be required to correct that problem - but instead of making the up-front investment to solve it with reliable base load generators, they will invest in a half solution: storage.  When that fails to completely solve the problem, Europeans will yet again be required to invest billions. 

Yes, this is "reality".  Tom's point still stands though: it's asinine. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

On 5/14/2020 at 1:58 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

the only statistic you accept is the one that you say proves your point. In this case it is that CA has the absolute highest debt of all the states and this is all that matters. 

I know you won't accept this but here is a view of federal handouts and this does not account for the excess money we pay in taxes.

That graph is what is called a blatant STATISTICAL lie(in some regards it is partially right though).  Helps to read the italicized and small print before crowing about something...  PS: I would LOVE to see said federal gov handouts massively pruned as all it really allows is for people to sit doing nothing like my lazy ass cousins who REFUSE TO work even though they are knocking up women and getting pregnant left and right when on food stamps, HUD, etc while 100% healthy, or being cut off being forced off their butts to either seek help so they can learn to work, or *** gasp *** actual work.  Oh yea, they are all 100lbs over weight.  How they hell they hooked up with other humans? or whales to get preggers or knock up other women is beyond me.  All the while 100% unemployed for their entire life and grew up on welfare as well.... Yea, they live in New Mexico... #6 on your ranked list baby!  Hoorah!

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

7 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

That graph is what is called a blatant STATISTICAL lie(in some regards it is partially right though).  Helps to read the italicized and small print before crowing about something...  PS: I would LOVE to see said federal gov handouts massively pruned as all it really allows is for people to sit doing nothing like my lazy ass cousins who REFUSE TO work even though they are knocking up women and getting pregnant left and right when on food stamps, HUD, etc while 100% healthy, or being cut off being forced off their butts to either seek help so they can learn to work, or *** gasp *** actual work.  Oh yea, they are all 100lbs over weight.  How they hell they hooked up with other humans? or whales to get preggers or knock up other women is beyond me.  All the while 100% unemployed for their entire life and grew up on welfare as well.... Yea, they live in New Mexico... #6 on your ranked list baby!  Hoorah!

The organization that made the map, TaxFoundation, is a conservative, right wing anti tax organization. I did read the small print, looks ok to me, what exactly concerns you?