Germany’s overdose of renewable energy

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

4 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I'm familiar with the technique and it's limitations.  There are lots of complicating factors ("holes") so I'm not going to argue too much about this with you.

We can probably agree that cow farts and mined natural gas are going to have vastly different C-14 levels. The actual age is fairly irrelevant for me as I'm not going to live for 50,000+ years (geological time).

Just don't start saying the earth is 4000 years old or something silly.

Cheers.

Ah, you are going with ignore the science arguement, it does not fit the narrative.... does not fit narrative... I am a robot...

Gotcha...

Run AWAY!  Keep running...

And cow farts C14 levels are identical to that of peat, or zooplankton which falls to bottom of ocean creating NG, which then has said C14 FIXED in place.  Unless you are going to argue that the entire ground is a giant breeder reactor...  😀but but but but... science.....

Edited May 10, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

@footeab@yahoo.com

And if the oil is so young how did it get so deep in the ground and below fossils that are many millions of years old? The Permian extinction was 250 million years ago.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

12 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Ah, you are going with ignore the science arguement, it does not fit the narrative.... does not fit narrative... I am a robot...

Gotcha...

Run AWAY!  Keep running...

And cow farts C14 levels are identical to that of peat, or zooplankton which falls to bottom of ocean creating NG, which then has said C14 FIXED in place.  Unless you are going to argue that the entire ground is a giant breeder reactor...  😀but but but but... science.....

I have a lot of experience with mass spectrometry... I've seen the isotopic ratios with my own eyes. Like I said I'm not going to waste my energy arguing this with you. Feel free to think you "won the internet."

Edited May 10, 2020 by Enthalpic

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

@footeab@yahoo.com

And if the oil is so young how did it get so deep in the ground and below fossils that are many millions of years old? The Permian extinction was 250 million years ago.

Well, uniformitarianism is stupid, since what we see in reality if we go with what we observe in nature, Catastrophism, then the mechanism becomes rather apparent.  As 1 Catastrophe does "millions" of years of "work" in the span of a few hours.  But as soon as one admits that what we observe for large events(Catastrophism), giant underwater oceanic landslides for instance is true(producing hundreds of miles long consistent lamina without varve holes, but with shells and other sea creatures, then HOW does one date anything?  The answer is that you really cannot.  Giant meteors hitting the ocean, and impacting the earths crust can get things moving quite nicely.  Only real explanation for things such as Mammoths frozen solid instantly in Siberia requiring temperatures below liquid CO2(-80C)without their spring chomped buttercups being digested first. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

34 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I have a lot of experience with mass spectrometry... I've seen the isotopic ratios with my own eyes. Like I said I'm not going to waste my energy arguing this with you. 

Yup, keep running, nice BS red herring though...  Its not like the journal radiocarbon has not been reporting C14 in products which according to their age should not have it, since its inception in 1959, but whatever you wish to smoke, keep toking man!  C14 does not magically appear or disappear, unless you have a gigantic religious or political(no different) agenda.

Edited May 11, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

9 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Well, uniformitarianism is stupid, since what we see in reality if we go with what we observe in nature, Catastrophism, then the mechanism becomes rather apparent.  As 1 Catastrophe does "millions" of years of "work" in the span of a few hours.  But as soon as one admits that what we observe for large events(Catastrophism), giant underwater oceanic landslides for instance is true(producing hundreds of miles long consistent lamina without varve holes, but with shells and other sea creatures, then HOW does one date anything?  The answer is that you really cannot.  Giant meteors hitting the ocean, and impacting the earths crust can get things moving quite nicely.  Only real explanation for things such as Mammoths frozen solid instantly in Siberia requiring temperatures below liquid CO2(-80C)without their spring chomped buttercups being digested first. 

I think you have been reading too much Answers In Genesis. I'm a fan of catastrophism, it is a significant player in our biological and geologic record but it isn't the answer to everything. 

The last truly global geologic catastrophe was when we ran into Theia. 

You are saying that most oil is less than 50,000 years old yet it has been found all over the world in thousands of locations at depths of thousands of feet in fields that are hundreds and even thousands of square miles in size. That means that in the past 10,000 years there should have also been many such massive catastrophic burying events around the world!!! Both on dry land and under the water. Say one a century? There certainly haven't been any above ground and those that happen underwater create equally massive tsunamis which leave a very real record on land, particularly they can be traced though affects on human civilization.Yet we only have evidence of one - the Storegga slide off the coast of Norway and it was only about 100 feet thick! 

Bakken oil is at a depth of 10,000' and the play covers hundreds of square miles. Where did this massive landslide come from in just the past 50,000 years? Where did the Permian Basin landslide come from?  North Sea? Nigeria? Russia? etc. etc. Can you explain where the 50.000 year old landslide came from for even one oil field?

If oil is so young but covered by old rocks then there would be mammalian fossils below it and dinosaurs above. Can you provide even one example of this? 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Deep discussion!

(Don't mind me, just lurking  )

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Bakken oil is at a depth of 10,000' and the play covers hundreds of square miles. Where did this massive landslide come from in just the past 50,000 years? Where did the Permian Basin landslide come from?  North Sea? Nigeria? Russia? etc. etc. Can you explain where the 50.000 year old landslide came from for even one oil field?

What you are missing is that your narrative only assumes one oil source:  compression of surface plant, algae, and creature matter.  I suggest and posit that it is much more complicated than that. 

It is entirely possible, if not plausible, that what you see as liquid oil has always existed in soild form, in deep space, created at or about the time of the Big Bang.  That oil has floated about (and likely is still floating about) the galaxies as these gigantic sheets, and every now and then a sheet intercepts the orbit of a planet, and thus oil "rains down" from the Heavens onto the planet surface. The outer edges of the sheet wil likely catch fire due to atmosphereic friction, but the bulk will impact as either a solid or liquid.  The liquid material then seeps below the surface in huge lakes, awaiting further surface movements of material to bury it. 

As the oil-sheet impacts are irregular in time, you will find that oil at various depths.  The more surface oil may well come from compressed plankton and other life forms including plant matter; the deeper oil formations would come from space sheets.  If that is the case, then there are vast pools of oil including oil inside rock  ("tight oil") that have yet to be found, and it is also likely that oil will exist all over the planet including at the bottom of the oceans.  Will you find oil at the bottom of the Alps?  Probably, yes - very ancient oil.  Can you get it out at a reasonable cost?  Well, not today.  But that does not mean the oil is not there. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

 .

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

35 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

What you are missing is that your narrative only assumes one oil source:  compression of surface plant, algae, and creature matter.  I suggest and posit that it is much more complicated than that. 

It is entirely possible, if not plausible, that what you see as liquid oil has always existed in soild form, in deep space, created at or about the time of the Big Bang.  That oil has floated about (and likely is still floating about) the galaxies as these gigantic sheets, and every now and then a sheet intercepts the orbit of a planet, and thus oil "rains down" from the Heavens onto the planet surface. The outer edges of the sheet wil likely catch fire due to atmosphereic friction, but the bulk will impact as either a solid or liquid.  The liquid material then seeps below the surface in huge lakes, awaiting further surface movements of material to bury it. 

As the oil-sheet impacts are irregular in time, you will find that oil at various depths.  The more surface oil may well come from compressed plankton and other life forms including plant matter; the deeper oil formations would come from space sheets.  If that is the case, then there are vast pools of oil including oil inside rock  ("tight oil") that have yet to be found, and it is also likely that oil will exist all over the planet including at the bottom of the oceans.  Will you find oil at the bottom of the Alps?  Probably, yes - very ancient oil.  Can you get it out at a reasonable cost?  Well, not today.  But that does not mean the oil is not there. 

Well I was objecting to @footeab@yahoo.com saying that all the oil on the Earth was no more than 250,000 years old max. So you are positing quite the opposite.I agree that oil is old and oil is in space, whether that is how we got our oil is an interesting question.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Far out!

(I'll go away now)

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

1 hour ago, Jan van Eck said:

What you are missing is that your narrative only assumes one oil source:  compression of surface plant, algae, and creature matter.  I suggest and posit that it is much more complicated than that. 

It is entirely possible, if not plausible, that what you see as liquid oil has always existed in soild form, in deep space, created at or about the time of the Big Bang.  That oil has floated about (and likely is still floating about) the galaxies as these gigantic sheets, and every now and then a sheet intercepts the orbit of a planet, and thus oil "rains down" from the Heavens onto the planet surface. The outer edges of the sheet wil likely catch fire due to atmosphereic friction, but the bulk will impact as either a solid or liquid.  The liquid material then seeps below the surface in huge lakes, awaiting further surface movements of material to bury it. 

As the oil-sheet impacts are irregular in time, you will find that oil at various depths.  The more surface oil may well come from compressed plankton and other life forms including plant matter; the deeper oil formations would come from space sheets.  If that is the case, then there are vast pools of oil including oil inside rock  ("tight oil") that have yet to be found, and it is also likely that oil will exist all over the planet including at the bottom of the oceans.  Will you find oil at the bottom of the Alps?  Probably, yes - very ancient oil.  Can you get it out at a reasonable cost?  Well, not today.  But that does not mean the oil is not there. 

There is some evidence amino acids can be formed in outer space.  Amino acids could be used to make oil over geological time, perhaps.

You should write science fiction...

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

12 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

There is some evidence amino acids can be formed in outer space.  Amino acids could be used to make oil over geological time, perhaps.

You should write science fiction...

 

Hydrocarbons are found in space. Titan is covered in methane and the Horse Head Nebula has C4H+ Are you referring to a specific hydrocarbon?

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

13 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

There is some evidence amino acids can be formed in outer space.  Amino acids could be used to make oil over geological time, perhaps.

You should write science fiction...

 

You should just go away.  You are emotionally immature and unsuited to this forum.  I am advancing a possible explanatin for an observed phenomenon and all you can do is put on your customery rather vulgar red-arrow downvote.  That is childish and churlish.  

Readers may note that there are these tantalizing descriptives in the Old Testament Bible about sheets of flame coming down out of the heavens.  No explanation has been developed for that phenomenon.  One possible cause would be large plunges of semi-liquid oil igniting on the fringes, as the earth moves through an oil-slick in the space.  I am not stating definitively that that would be the case; merely that the explanatin would fit the observations.  There is a lot that we do not know, assuredly about outer space, and if other compoounds are formed iun the Big Bang, then it becomes difficult to think that only elemental structures are fromed and not hydrogen-carbon chains given the immense heat and pressures.   Unless you are prepared to totally dismiss and discount everything written in ancient texts, a rather dubious idea, then some hypotheses would have to be developed as to how the observed phenomena were created.  This one would explain the vast amounts of oil found near the surface in the Middle East.  The stuff literally rained down!  

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

There is a lot that we do not know, assuredly about outer space, and if other compoounds are formed iun the Big Bang, then it becomes difficult to think that only elemental structures are fromed and not hydrogen-carbon chains given the immense heat and pressures.   Unless you are prepared to totally dismiss and discount everything written in ancient texts, a rather dubious idea, then some hypotheses would have to be developed as to how the observed phenomena were created.  This one would explain the vast amounts of oil found near the surface in the Middle East.  The stuff literally rained down!  

No compounds were formed in the Big Bang, only energy. As the Universe cooled particles emerged and finally the first atom, Hydrogen after 379,000 years.  Carbon wasn't formed until the death of the 1st generation stars. All the heavier elements were subsequently created in various generations of stars.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

16 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

No compounds were formed in the Big Bang, only energy. As the Universe cooled particles emerged and finally the first atom, Hydrogen after 379,000 years.  Carbon wasn't formed until the death of the 1st generation stars. All the heavier elements were subsequently created in various generations of stars.

Nice of you to declare that with such definitive stentorianism. 

You might want to reflect that nobody observed the phenomenon, so nobody really knows.  At this point, it is all guesswork. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

22 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

 

Readers may note that there are these tantalizing descriptives in the Old Testament Bible about sheets of flame coming down out of the heavens.  No explanation has been developed for that phenomenon.  One possible cause would be large plunges of semi-liquid oil igniting on the fringes, as the earth moves through an oil-slick in the space.  I am not stating definitively that that would be the case; merely that the explanatin would fit the observations.  There is a lot that we do not know, assuredly about outer space, and if other compoounds are formed iun the Big Bang, then it becomes difficult to think that only elemental structures are fromed and not hydrogen-carbon chains given the immense heat and pressures.   Unless you are prepared to totally dismiss and discount everything written in ancient texts, a rather dubious idea, then some hypotheses would have to be developed as to how the observed phenomena were created.  This one would explain the vast amounts of oil found near the surface in the Middle East.  The stuff literally rained down!  

The sheets of flame could be meteors or the aurora borealis. Earlier you said the deep oil was from space and thus very old. Any observed events written about in the ancient texts such as sheets of flame would only be a few thousand years ago. I could see our oil being from space if it arrived after the late heavy bombardment and before the advent of an oxygen atmosphere about 2 billion years ago. Once we had an oxygen atmosphere the oil wouldn't stop burning just because it hit the ground or the water. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Once we had an oxygen atmosphere the oil wouldn't stop burning just because it hit the ground or the water. 

Sure it would.  It absolutely would extinguish.  That is how oil-well fires are put out: with a huge shock-wave from a blast.  You would get the same event from the impact of oil hammering into the desert.  A huge shock-wave. 

Then the big pool of oil seeps down into the sands, and lies there for a few thousand years, awaiting the intrepid drillers of the West....

[Jee + 27]

Many if not most of the renewable energy ideas are flawed or premature , a recent documentary summarises this pretty well and it's free on YouTube: planet of humans.

But this doesn't mean being on top of the food chain we can afford to stop exploring, the stuff that takes millions of years to form will not last forever.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

51 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Sure it would.  It absolutely would extinguish.  That is how oil-well fires are put out: with a huge shock-wave from a blast.  You would get the same event from the impact of oil hammering into the desert.  A huge shock-wave. 

Then the big pool of oil seeps down into the sands, and lies there for a few thousand years, awaiting the intrepid drillers of the West....

Would you agree that the autoignition temperature of oil is less than 500C? 

A pool of oil in space would be very, very frozen. And very very big if it were to provide the kind of oil abundance we observe today because these impacts would be a fairly rare event. But let's say just one meager VLCC worth of oil, 2M barrels, were to impact. Upon entry the exterior would heat, melt and burn. Upon impact the unburnt mass would impact the Earth with a kinetic force of about 16 megatons TNT, same as Hiroshima. Indeed the flame from reintry may be extinguished from a lack of oxygen but that lack of oxygen would only last for a few moments. When that oxygen rushed back in it would find a mass of oil at a temperature of around 2,000C  or more. Do you think it might catch on fire again? 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jay McKinsey

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

7 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Do you think it might catch on fire again?

Of course not.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

2 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

You should just go away.  You are emotionally immature and unsuited to this forum. 

I'm not going anywhere and am far less emotionally driven than most on this forum - yourself included.

Did you just reference the Old Testament?  Wow!

If a little down arrow from a nobody hurts your ego perhaps quit the internet.

Live long and prosper. 🖖

Edited May 11, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Two of every animal garbage... blood on doors.

They wrote the new testament for a reason.

"God loves you... well unless he decides to drown nearly everybody." 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

2 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Hydrocarbons are found in space. Titan is covered in methane and the Horse Head Nebula has C4H+ Are you referring to a specific hydrocarbon?

It is more along the "seeds of life" timeline.  Life and sunlight created the oil here....

Amino acids are needed for life - some can be found in current space.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

On 2/4/2020 at 12:06 AM, NickW said:

Well there is a fairly detailed financial analyse a few posts back.

And the point stands - the drivers for wind, solar and renewables go beyond financial. These include public health, global warming, energy security and local job creation.

The fact that increasingly wind and solar is reaching parity or better with the cost of conventional generation is an added bonus.

 

Using ‘global warming’ as a driver is a detriment to your argument. First, global warming is a farce (the entire globe is NOT warming) and the green team abandoned this terminology decades ago in favor of the term ‘climate change’. Secondly, unless you are cherry picking your scientists and data sets, the idea that climate change is due to human activity has yet to be proven conclusively.