Fast-charging, long-running, bendy energy storage breakthrough

[Meredith Poor + 894]

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-02/ucl-flb021320.php

At 88 Wh/l, this has roughly the energy density of lead acid batteries, but can be recharged in seconds.

 

 

[Rob Plant + 2,755]

This is interesting but I'm not sure it hasnt already been done.

I have stated before on another thread that I believe graphene will be the game changer in energy storage. Henrik Frisker has been developing graphene battery storage for some time now, and I think he's about ready to release his latest EV on the market and it could revolutionize EV's if he's got it right.

He claims "Fisker has recently filed for patents securing solid state battery technology that it claims will enable a 500-mile range and charging that can take just one minute. It said that the technology could be production ready for automotive platforms as soon as 2023, but that non-automotive applications may be able to utilise it earlier."

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/fisker-emotion-first-pic-new-ev-can-charge-nine-minutes

The part in bold above is one hell of a claim!

The car itself is very expensive but as its not being mass produced I think the price could be slashed when produced in volume.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

Dude: Fiskar is just using standard lithium ion batteries and sprinkled in some graphene.  So what.  Tesla gets the exact same range/time for charge. If you drain the batteries low and then charge to ~50% SoC, your C charge rating is immense.  125mi/9min, no problem.  The last 50% on the other hand take quite a bit of time.  True, still much faster than lead acid, but it still slows down big time after 70%.  Most Lithium specific chargers just use the last ~30% charge rate to charge the entire batteries at as it is lead pipe simple/stupid and the exact SUPER high charge rating depends on the batteries in question and there are a LOT of different Lithium chemistries out there.  So it would be easy to blow the batteries accidentally. 

This is nothing new.  RC guys have been doing this on LIthium ion-polymer batteries for decades.  Why it took Tesla and company so long to figure this out, I do not know.  All they had to do was copy what was already done 2 decades prior.  The "not invented here" blinders firmly in place...

Edit: PS regarding the 500mi/1min... Fiskar is GIANT on claims over last 2 decades and has FAILED on 100% of them.  So, no, I trust nothing out of Fiskars.

EDIT: PPS: IF Fiskars claim of 2.5X density of best lithium and its immense charge rate ~10X than lithium currently.... then Tesla and everyone else will be bankrupt in a couple of years.  This density means the complete end of ICE other than in airplanes/ships, Of course this assumes the materials for the batteries are available. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com

[Rob Plant + 2,755]

1 minute ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Dude: Fiskar is just using standard lithium ion batteries and sprinkled in some graphene.  So what.  Tesla gets the exact same range/time for charge. If you drain the batteries low and then charge to ~50% SoC, your C charge rating is immense.  125mi/9min, no problem.  The last 50% on the other hand take quite a bit of time.  True, still much faster than lead acid, but it still slows down big time after 70%.  Most Lithium specific chargers just use the last ~30% charge rate to charge the entire batteries at as it is lead pipe simple/stupid and the exact SUPER high charge rating depends on the batteries in question and there are a LOT of different Lithium chemistries out there.  So it would be easy to blow the batteries accidentally. 

This is nothing new.  RC guys have been doing this on LIthium ion-polymer batteries for decades.  Why it took Tesla and company so long to figure this out, I do not know.  All they had to do was copy what was already done 2 decades prior.  The "not invented here" blinders firmly in place...

Yes in the current car you are 100% right.

My point is he has been developing a graphene battery for years now and to make a claim that he will get 500 miles charge in 1 minute suggests he will be moving towards replacing the lithium ion battery with a graphene one. This is why it will be production ready by 2023.

Lets wait and see. One things for sure he is no fool and is determined to p*ss on Musk's chips!

[Rob Kramer + 696]

13 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-02/ucl-flb021320.php

At 88 Wh/l, this has roughly the energy density of lead acid batteries, but can be recharged in seconds.

 

 

A bit click bait ish of a title . It's a flat bendable high storage supercapacitor.  You can YouTube new (ish) pocket held jump starters there practically a few li ion batteries with some super capacitors . The batteries hold the juice and the voltage and the capacitor has the amps . It is impressive.  I hope to see it used with other battery teck for more reliable lighter smaller batteries for alot of sectors.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Rob Kramer

[Otis11 + 551]

 

6 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Yes in the current car you are 100% right.

My point is he has been developing a graphene battery for years now and to make a claim that he will get 500 miles charge in 1 minute suggests he will be moving towards replacing the lithium ion battery with a graphene one. This is why it will be production ready by 2023.

Lets wait and see. One things for sure he is no fool and is determined to p*ss on Musk's chips!

He IS a fool. The laws of physics are against him. Even if he produced the most efficient electric car ever, he would only be getting 5 miles per kWh (2-3 is more typical. While people can get 5 hypermiling, normal driving no vehicle gets more than 3.5 or so). That would mean his car would require 100 kWh of onboard power stored. To charge 100 kWh in 1 minutes would require a 6 MW charger. Current vehicles use 900V charging for fast-charge applications. Even using 1000V (for easy math), that would still require 6,000 A. If we went with a 2000 MCM cable, that's 1.4 inches in diameter, that'd still require 10 cables. You can go to higher voltages but that makes your power electronics larger, and requires higher insulation too. You'd have to go to 30,000V to stay within the NEC requirements for a 4/0 cable, which is the largest you're going to reasonably want for a consumer to manipulate. If you liquid cool the cable you can shrink it a bit, but still not a huge amount.

The other technical challenge here is balancing a grid with a 6MW load that pulses on and then off in a minute - and multiple connections for multiple cars. And creating the infrastructure to support that (read: transformers. Transformers have inductance that doesn't pulse up and down quickly - or at least not well.) Power on the commercial side is also sold at a lower Energy charge, but has demand charges - using 6MW for a minute is going to absolutely kill your average cost per kWh.

All that to say it can be done, but there are trade offs that make it absolutely sub-optimal. Someone will eventually do it, but honestly, I think the most likely future state is a compromise - 10 minute charging or so. Anyone claiming huge range at significantly lower times is blowing smoke to get attention. (Or they're talking about cell phone batteries)

Just my 2c.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Otis11

[0R0 + 6,251]

1 hour ago, Otis11 said:

All that to say it can be done, but there are trade offs that make it absolutely sub-optimal. Someone will eventually do it, but honestly, I think the most likely future state is a compromise - 10 minute charging or so. Anyone claiming huge range at significantly lower times is blowing smoke to get attention. (Or they're talking about cell phone batteries)

That would still be a great improvement over current conditions with hours to charge. 

[Otis11 + 551]

14 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

That would still be a great improvement over current conditions with hours to charge. 

Oh, agreed - I think we'll reasonably get 2-3x faster than Tesla's current solution (which is already substantially faster than the competitors - despite what press releases may say, that's the real world situation). After that the drawbacks simply due to laws of physics kill faster charges. (Will be interesting to see how they address this problem for the 'Tesla Semi' and other large battery vehicles. That will give insight into what's coming for fast-charging cars)

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

Synthetic fuel or nothing. 

[PE Scott + 563]

4 hours ago, Otis11 said:

The other technical challenge here is balancing a grid with a 6MW load that pulses on and then off in a minute - and multiple connections for multiple cars. And creating the infrastructure to support that (read: transformers. Transformers have inductance that doesn't pulse up and down quickly - or at least not well.) Power on the commercial side is also sold at a lower Energy charge, but has demand charges - using 6MW for a minute is going to absolutely kill your average cost per kWh.

All that to say it can be done, but there are trade offs that make it absolutely sub-optimal. Someone will eventually do it, but honestly, I think the most likely future state is a compromise - 10 minute charging or so. Anyone claiming huge range at significantly lower times is blowing smoke to get attention. (Or they're talking about cell phone batteries)

Just my 2c.

 

 

As usual, I more or less agree with you here. There is one caveat though, in the instance there were supercapacitors available for cars, its feasible to think they'd be available for grid storage. Huge IF, If they could charge in one minute they could presumably discharge in a similar fashion provided the proper wiring, etc. 

The charging connection would be the biggest issue, in this scenario, in my mind, it would be heavy or very difficult to cool or both in order to achieve the 6MW stated. However, the grid wouldn't have to support that kind of rate. It would maybe need to recharge in 10 minutes? 20 minutes? An hour? I imagine it would depend on the frequency of people pulling in to recharge their battery and the amount of supercapacitor storage available onsite, but a lot of the time it would just be sitting around waiting for the next car to connect and charge. The other issue would be whether the supercapacitors in this scenario could hold a charge over time or if it slowly bleed off into the ether.....my guess is they would perform well in this regard though.

 

Edit: I don't know off hand, what voltage does the grid run at before its stepped down for commercial and residential use? Using that voltage, a much smaller Amperage would be neccessary and that might help the cable size side of the equation. Not getting fried or having your person form a convenient path yo ground is another story.

Edited February 19, 2020 by PE Scott

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

Downside of super capacitors is they they tend to "leak" energy pretty quickly; a "use it or lose it" type of storage device.   

I have a little drone that runs off capacitance.  It's fun and recharges super fast but you get maybe a few minutes of flight.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Enthalpic

[Otis11 + 551]

 

2 hours ago, PE Scott said:

The charging connection would be the biggest issue, in this scenario, in my mind, it would be heavy or very difficult to cool or both in order to achieve the 6MW stated. However, the grid wouldn't have to support that kind of rate. It would maybe need to recharge in 10 minutes? 20 minutes? An hour? I imagine it would depend on the frequency of people pulling in to recharge their battery and the amount of supercapacitor storage available onsite, but a lot of the time it would just be sitting around waiting for the next car to connect and charge. The other issue would be whether the supercapacitors in this scenario could hold a charge over time or if it slowly bleed off into the ether.....my guess is they would perform well in this regard though.

 

Edit: I don't know off hand, what voltage does the grid run at before its stepped down for commercial and residential use? Using that voltage, a much smaller Amperage would be neccessary and that might help the cable size side of the equation. Not getting fried or having your person form a convenient path yo ground is another story.

Agreed... but as has been shown with Teslas Charging stations the different demand between normal use and peak holiday use is massive... and you have to size even that local storage and grid connection for the peak use rate or risk ticking people off your product. So while you are correct, I dont see local storage buying you much except maybe addressing the inductance issue.

As far as grids,  it really depends on the area, the distribution and transmission grids are a patchwork. In my area for example we have 12.47 kV, 21 kV and 24.94 kV.  (Dont quote me on the 21 kV...)

Point is, you're either going to need a transformer or adapt to a huge range of varying voltages. 

(Also to get high enough voltages you still run into the issue of the power electronics mentioned in my first post)

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

Holy balls, is it that hard to understand the synthetic fuel is better than electric vehicles? Not only would it generate more cash and thus propel innovation, but it requires less innovation in the first place. AND we get to keep making engines the same way we have been. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

Meanwhile: In Norway: It is now MORE expensive to drive an electric Vehicle than an ICE... Guess what Government gets their taxes and have now decided that $0.80c/kWh is a great number....  Those TESLA fast charging stations?  Will see the exact same fate. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:31 PM, Otis11 said:

 

Agreed... but as has been shown with Teslas Charging stations the different demand between normal use and peak holiday use is massive... and you have to size even that local storage and grid connection for the peak use rate or risk ticking people off your product. So while you are correct, I dont see local storage buying you much except maybe addressing the inductance issue.

As far as grids,  it really depends on the area, the distribution and transmission grids are a patchwork. In my area for example we have 12.47 kV, 21 kV and 24.94 kV.  (Dont quote me on the 21 kV...)

Point is, you're either going to need a transformer or adapt to a huge range of varying voltages. 

(Also to get high enough voltages you still run into the issue of the power electronics mentioned in my first post)

The Hell??? It is called a standard lame brain transformer.  Depending on input voltage you just tie power feed to DIFFERENT post terminals for desired output voltage 3 phase 480V.  The only deal kicker is the Peak load demand.