So the west is winning, is it? Only if you’re a delusional Trump toady, Mr Pompeo, by Simon Tisdall

[Marcin2 + 725]

The special relationship has ended in tears for Britain and other allies have no reason to trust America (from guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/22/the-west-is-not-winning-and-donald-trump-america-first-is-to-blame)

I think this article from Guardian reflects my sentiment about recent counter-productive US foreign policy moves, more appriopriate term would be blunders. Sentiment shared by a lot of Europeans and European governments.

The US secretary of state Mike Pompeo lectures America ’s allies at the Munich security conference on 15 February. Photograph: Andrew Caballero-Reynolds/AP

When was the last time a British prime minister cancelled a White House summit with a US president? Possibly never. Yet that’s what Boris Johnson did after a livid, cursing Donald Trump slammed the phone down on him in a row over the Chinese firm, Huawei.

Now a planned tête-à-tête in Washington next month, already twice delayed, is off. Not postponed. Not rescheduled. Off. So much for “Britain Trump”, the servile moniker the president pinned on Johnson last year. So much for the “special relationship”. Perhaps it was always doomed to end in tears.

Imperious, bullying American behaviour, political arm-twisting and shameless economic blackmail over a post-Brexit trade deal pose big problems for Britain in a time of deep uncertainty. But other US partners are in the same boat.

If a reminder were needed, it came in the form of Mike Pompeo, US secretary of state and Trump’s most influential adviser, who pompously lectured fractious European leaders at last weekend’s Munich security conference.

Pompeo reassured mutinous allies that, despite unilateralist, isolationist appearances, America remained committed to global leadership. “The death of the transatlantic alliance is grossly over-exaggerated. The west is winning. We are collectively winning. We’re doing it together,” he declared.

This is utter hogwash. And almost everyone outside a dishonest, self-deceiving circle of Republican stooges and Trump toadies knows it. Together? In many respects, the US and Europe are further apart than at any time since 1941.

Pompeo’s speech revealed a cold war mindset that crudely divides the world into friends and foes, separated by walls, missiles, sanctions, insults, and mutually assured dysfunction. For Pompeo, who referenced his formative experience as a soldier patrolling “freedom’s frontier” in West Berlin in the 1980s, there is no middle way. It’s a black-and-white world ruled by fear and force. It’s pure regression.

Pompeo laid into China over military expansionism, debt diplomacy and cyber threats. Fair enough. But if he wants things to change, he needs to talk calmly. The coronavirus epidemic, like Huawei’s controversial G5 networks and Beijing’s HS2 bid, shows how inescapably interdependent China and western countries already are. When Jaguar Land Rover runs short of parts, Apple iPhones grow scarce and Lake District B&Bs bemoan missing tourists, all because Hubei is stricken by a virus, it’s plain the global die is cast. Whether for security, trade, political, or public health reasons, it’s too late to isolate China.

Pompeo had it in for Russia and Iran, too – another evil empire, in his telling, that wages “campaigns of terror in the Middle East and right here in Europe”. Strange, then, that Europeans mostly believe Trump’s Iran vendetta to be dangerous and foolish. Stranger still how Trump sucks up to Vladimir Putin.

Pompeo’s broader theme – that the west, representing freedom and democracy, is winning – is no less daft. Only people with their heads stuck in the self-congratulatory, delusional cloud that frequently envelops Washington could seriously make such a ridiculous claim about the world in 2020.

What kind of foggy thinking or wilful blindness allows a senior politician to indulge such complacency when, as he speaks, not so far away, hundreds of thousands of refugees are being mercilessly bombed on Idlib’s freezing hillsides?

Almost 10 years ago, Syrians rose up in search of the freedom and democracy Pompeo lauds. But they got precious little help from the west. The story of the war, in part, is the story of how the west lost Syria, lost other Arab spring countries – and lost credibility everywhere. (...)

Putin’s Russia seizes territory in Ukraine, subverts other people’s elections, and assassinates opponents in foreign cities without effective western punishment. The more China’s brutal repression of its Muslim minority is documented, the more European governments look away. About this, at least, Pompeo is right.

 

But he is dead wrong about Palestine and the Israeli land-grab recently endorsed by Trump. Such blatant theft overturns decades of binding UN resolutions. It makes a mockery of the “international rules-based order” – and any semblance of justice. Might these and many other unaddressed crises, including Yemen, Kashmir and Myanmar’s ethnically cleansed Rohingyas, reasonably be called “wins” for western values? Of course not.

And away from conflict zones, new technologies, far from bolstering free societies, deliver ever more pervasive, pernicious means of monitoring, controlling and censoring citizens.

Across the globe, the battlements of open governance are under attack while its defenders are betrayed from within. Authoritarian regimes are on the up. Intolerant rightwing populists and ultra-nationalist mini-Trumps are on the march.

No, Mr Pompeo. “America First” may work for some in your country. But “the west”, meaning a multinational, democratic alliance that champions shared principles, aims and laws, is not winning. If this were a movie, it would be called How The West Was Lost – with Trump as outlaw-in-chief.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Marcin2
typos

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

This should be a fun thread.

[Marcin2 + 725]

28 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

This should be a fun thread.

I do not know Tom, for many it is not fun.

Actually some think tanks, even US based ones, project that US-China war and general conflict US vs the rest of the world is something we should try to avoid, but it is more likely than not to occur in the near future. Of course provided that current course of US aggressive foreign policies is continued, sometimes only the timing and extent is debated.

Look what happened during the last 2 years, from Feb 2018 till Feb 2020, what you project to happen till Feb 2022 ?

In 2020 we will know for sure that tariffs do not have important impact on both US and Chinese economies, something that is obvious for many, I am included in this group.

Technology war seems to have limited impact on China, as many other countries see the opportunity and are eager to substitute US components.

What is next Tom in US arsenal ? With what drastic measures are you ready to defend US supremacy ?

I think this is only down how mass media will prepare you to think that China is the most evil country in the world.

Country that should be contained and destroyed if needed, well it is 1.4 billion people 1/5 of the globe.

Your major politicians are telling this to you daily, I bet you will believe in a year or two.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

38 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

This should be a fun thread.

Claim: Boris White House Visit Cancelled After Trump ‘Slammed’ Phone Down in China Row

 

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

Should I hazard a guess that some people would prefer China's CCP authoritarianism and EU's Socialism headquartered in Brussels to conquer Capitalism?

Thanks but no thanks.

CCP has bungled badly with its mishandled coverup and subsequent explosion of Coronavirus.

EU budget is now €75 billion in the hole after the UK extracted itself from the EU's Borg collective.

 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

Good guys cannot stick together when they do not know what hard times are.  We are due for hard times to reteach everyone lessons of why low/no TARIFFS were based on countries you agreed with and not blatant GREED ala WTO debacle where all the dictators of the world were let in.  You cannot have an open society when all of your resources are being taken by thieves backed by slaves. 

PS: There never has been a "rules based order".  That is one of those giant ass lies told by Europeans to make themselves feel better about being conquered during WWII after they ruled the world for several hundred years.  True, it was a benign conquering, but a conquering non the less. 

PPS: There never has been a "United" nations.  It was a tool of the USA to fight the cold war.  Cold war ended 30 years ago, but dictators around the world were given an ever bigger role in the UN... talk about stupid.  Same reason tariffs exist, so do governing bodies who EXCLUDE others and keep the power unto themselves instead of giving to dictators.  Give power to countries joining your side, not undermining you.  Beyond stupid. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

11 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Good guys cannot stick together when they do not know what hard times are.  We are due for hard times to reteach everyone lessons of why low/no TARIFFS were based on countries you agreed with and not blatant GREED ala WTO debacle where all the dictators of the world were let in.  You cannot have an open society when all of your resources are being taken by thieves backed by slaves. 

PS: There never has been a "rules based order".  That is one of those giant ass lies told by Europeans to make themselves feel better about being conquered during WWII after they ruled the world for several hundred years.  True, it was a benign conquering, but a conquering non the less. 

PPS: There never has been a "United" nations.  It was a tool of the USA to fight the cold war.  Cold war ended 30 years ago, but dictators around the world were given an ever bigger role in the UN... talk about stupid.  Same reason tariffs exist, so do governing bodies who EXCLUDE others and keep the power unto themselves instead of giving to dictators.  Give power to countries joining your side, not undermining you.  Beyond stupid. 

Excellent.  That ought to kick things off rather nicely.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

4 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

No, Mr Pompeo. “America First” may work for some in your country. But “the west”, meaning a multinational, democratic alliance that champions shared principles, aims and laws, is not winning. If this were a movie, it would be called How The West Was Lost – with Trump as outlaw-in-chief.

The Guardian? Lol lol lol lol lol 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[Wombat + 1,028]

4 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

The special relationship has ended in tears for Britain and other allies have no reason to trust America (from guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/22/the-west-is-not-winning-and-donald-trump-america-first-is-to-blame)

I think this article from Guardian reflects my sentiment about recent counter-productive US foreign policy moves, more appriopriate term would be blunders. Sentiment shared by a lot of Europeans and European governments.

The US secretary of state Mike Pompeo lectures America ’s allies at the Munich security conference on 15 February. Photograph: Andrew Caballero-Reynolds/AP

 

When was the last time a British prime minister cancelled a White House summit with a US president? Possibly never. Yet that’s what Boris Johnson did after a livid, cursing Donald Trump slammed the phone down on him in a row over the Chinese firm, Huawei.

 

Now a planned tête-à-tête in Washington next month, already twice delayed, is off. Not postponed. Not rescheduled. Off. So much for “Britain Trump”, the servile moniker the president pinned on Johnson last year. So much for the “special relationship”. Perhaps it was always doomed to end in tears.

 

Imperious, bullying American behaviour, political arm-twisting and shameless economic blackmail over a post-Brexit trade deal pose big problems for Britain in a time of deep uncertainty. But other US partners are in the same boat.

 

If a reminder were needed, it came in the form of Mike Pompeo, US secretary of state and Trump’s most influential adviser, who pompously lectured fractious European leaders at last weekend’s Munich security conference.

 

Pompeo reassured mutinous allies that, despite unilateralist, isolationist appearances, America remained committed to global leadership. “The death of the transatlantic alliance is grossly over-exaggerated. The west is winning. We are collectively winning. We’re doing it together,” he declared.

 

This is utter hogwash. And almost everyone outside a dishonest, self-deceiving circle of Republican stooges and Trump toadies knows it. Together? In many respects, the US and Europe are further apart than at any time since 1941.

 

Pompeo’s speech revealed a cold war mindset that crudely divides the world into friends and foes, separated by walls, missiles, sanctions, insults, and mutually assured dysfunction. For Pompeo, who referenced his formative experience as a soldier patrolling “freedom’s frontier” in West Berlin in the 1980s, there is no middle way. It’s a black-and-white world ruled by fear and force. It’s pure regression.

 

Pompeo laid into China over military expansionism, debt diplomacy and cyber threats. Fair enough. But if he wants things to change, he needs to talk calmly. The coronavirus epidemic, like Huawei’s controversial G5 networks and Beijing’s HS2 bid, shows how inescapably interdependent China and western countries already are. When Jaguar Land Rover runs short of parts, Apple iPhones grow scarce and Lake District B&Bs bemoan missing tourists, all because Hubei is stricken by a virus, it’s plain the global die is cast. Whether for security, trade, political, or public health reasons, it’s too late to isolate China.

 

Pompeo had it in for Russia and Iran, too – another evil empire, in his telling, that wages “campaigns of terror in the Middle East and right here in Europe”. Strange, then, that Europeans mostly believe Trump’s Iran vendetta to be dangerous and foolish. Stranger still how Trump sucks up to Vladimir Putin.

 

Pompeo’s broader theme – that the west, representing freedom and democracy, is winning – is no less daft. Only people with their heads stuck in the self-congratulatory, delusional cloud that frequently envelops Washington could seriously make such a ridiculous claim about the world in 2020.

 

What kind of foggy thinking or wilful blindness allows a senior politician to indulge such complacency when, as he speaks, not so far away, hundreds of thousands of refugees are being mercilessly bombed on Idlib’s freezing hillsides?

 

Almost 10 years ago, Syrians rose up in search of the freedom and democracy Pompeo lauds. But they got precious little help from the west. The story of the war, in part, is the story of how the west lost Syria, lost other Arab spring countries – and lost credibility everywhere. (...)

 

Putin’s Russia seizes territory in Ukraine, subverts other people’s elections, and assassinates opponents in foreign cities without effective western punishment. The more China’s brutal repression of its Muslim minority is documented, the more European governments look away. About this, at least, Pompeo is right.

 

 

 

But he is dead wrong about Palestine and the Israeli land-grab recently endorsed by Trump. Such blatant theft overturns decades of binding UN resolutions. It makes a mockery of the “international rules-based order” – and any semblance of justice. Might these and many other unaddressed crises, including Yemen, Kashmir and Myanmar’s ethnically cleansed Rohingyas, reasonably be called “wins” for western values? Of course not.

 

And away from conflict zones, new technologies, far from bolstering free societies, deliver ever more pervasive, pernicious means of monitoring, controlling and censoring citizens.

 

Across the globe, the battlements of open governance are under attack while its defenders are betrayed from within. Authoritarian regimes are on the up. Intolerant rightwing populists and ultra-nationalist mini-Trumps are on the march.

 

No, Mr Pompeo. “America First” may work for some in your country. But “the west”, meaning a multinational, democratic alliance that champions shared principles, aims and laws, is not winning. If this were a movie, it would be called How The West Was Lost – with Trump as outlaw-in-chief.

 

The US secretary of state Mike Pompeo lectures America ’s allies at the Munich security conference on 15 February. Photograph: Andrew Caballero-Reynolds/AP

 

When was the last time a British prime minister cancelled a White House summit with a US president? Possibly never. Yet that’s what Boris Johnson did after a livid, cursing Donald Trump slammed the phone down on him in a row over the Chinese firm, Huawei.

 

Now a planned tête-à-tête in Washington next month, already twice delayed, is off. Not postponed. Not rescheduled. Off. So much for “Britain Trump”, the servile moniker the president pinned on Johnson last year. So much for the “special relationship”. Perhaps it was always doomed to end in tears.

 

Imperious, bullying American behaviour, political arm-twisting and shameless economic blackmail over a post-Brexit trade deal pose big problems for Britain in a time of deep uncertainty. But other US partners are in the same boat.

 

If a reminder were needed, it came in the form of Mike Pompeo, US secretary of state and Trump’s most influential adviser, who pompously lectured fractious European leaders at last weekend’s Munich security conference.

 

Pompeo reassured mutinous allies that, despite unilateralist, isolationist appearances, America remained committed to global leadership. “The death of the transatlantic alliance is grossly over-exaggerated. The west is winning. We are collectively winning. We’re doing it together,” he declared.

 

This is utter hogwash. And almost everyone outside a dishonest, self-deceiving circle of Republican stooges and Trump toadies knows it. Together? In many respects, the US and Europe are further apart than at any time since 1941.

 

Pompeo’s speech revealed a cold war mindset that crudely divides the world into friends and foes, separated by walls, missiles, sanctions, insults, and mutually assured dysfunction. For Pompeo, who referenced his formative experience as a soldier patrolling “freedom’s frontier” in West Berlin in the 1980s, there is no middle way. It’s a black-and-white world ruled by fear and force. It’s pure regression.

 

Pompeo laid into China over military expansionism, debt diplomacy and cyber threats. Fair enough. But if he wants things to change, he needs to talk calmly. The coronavirus epidemic, like Huawei’s controversial G5 networks and Beijing’s HS2 bid, shows how inescapably interdependent China and western countries already are. When Jaguar Land Rover runs short of parts, Apple iPhones grow scarce and Lake District B&Bs bemoan missing tourists, all because Hubei is stricken by a virus, it’s plain the global die is cast. Whether for security, trade, political, or public health reasons, it’s too late to isolate China.

 

Pompeo had it in for Russia and Iran, too – another evil empire, in his telling, that wages “campaigns of terror in the Middle East and right here in Europe”. Strange, then, that Europeans mostly believe Trump’s Iran vendetta to be dangerous and foolish. Stranger still how Trump sucks up to Vladimir Putin.

 

Pompeo’s broader theme – that the west, representing freedom and democracy, is winning – is no less daft. Only people with their heads stuck in the self-congratulatory, delusional cloud that frequently envelops Washington could seriously make such a ridiculous claim about the world in 2020.

 

What kind of foggy thinking or wilful blindness allows a senior politician to indulge such complacency when, as he speaks, not so far away, hundreds of thousands of refugees are being mercilessly bombed on Idlib’s freezing hillsides?

 

Almost 10 years ago, Syrians rose up in search of the freedom and democracy Pompeo lauds. But they got precious little help from the west. The story of the war, in part, is the story of how the west lost Syria, lost other Arab spring countries – and lost credibility everywhere. (...)

 

Putin’s Russia seizes territory in Ukraine, subverts other people’s elections, and assassinates opponents in foreign cities without effective western punishment. The more China’s brutal repression of its Muslim minority is documented, the more European governments look away. About this, at least, Pompeo is right.

 

 

 

But he is dead wrong about Palestine and the Israeli land-grab recently endorsed by Trump. Such blatant theft overturns decades of binding UN resolutions. It makes a mockery of the “international rules-based order” – and any semblance of justice. Might these and many other unaddressed crises, including Yemen, Kashmir and Myanmar’s ethnically cleansed Rohingyas, reasonably be called “wins” for western values? Of course not.

 

And away from conflict zones, new technologies, far from bolstering free societies, deliver ever more pervasive, pernicious means of monitoring, controlling and censoring citizens.

 

Across the globe, the battlements of open governance are under attack while its defenders are betrayed from within. Authoritarian regimes are on the up. Intolerant rightwing populists and ultra-nationalist mini-Trumps are on the march.

 

No, Mr Pompeo. “America First” may work for some in your country. But “the west”, meaning a multinational, democratic alliance that champions shared principles, aims and laws, is not winning. If this were a movie, it would be called How The West Was Lost – with Trump as outlaw-in-chief.

 

Go f*** urself u idiot. "America First" is working perfectly well for Australia and Israel, Americas' staunchest and most important allies. The UK is stupid to choose China over America and will pay a high price in the end.

[Wombat + 1,028]

I am a proud "Trump Toadie" and if u ever use that term again, I will kill you.

[Wombat + 1,028]

1 minute ago, Wombat said:

I am a proud "Trump Toadie" and if u ever use that term again, I will kill you.

I might even get Putin to do it for me?!?

[frankfurter + 562]

4 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

Should I hazard a guess that some people would prefer China's CCP authoritarianism and EU's Socialism headquartered in Brussels to conquer Capitalism?

Thanks but no thanks.

CCP has bungled badly with its mishandled coverup and subsequent explosion of Coronavirus.

EU budget is now €75 billion in the hole after the UK extracted itself from the EU's Borg collective.

 

The topic is Trump vs Johnson. I do not see how China is the focus of the topic: nobody from China was a party to the call.  Myself not partaking in the call, I have no idea if the covid19 was a topic.  So, yet another post to smear China. I suppose you could not resist? 

As for authoritarian vs socialist vs capitalist, I see elements of these in all countries today.  Relating to the topic, I see Boris rebelling against Donald's authoritarian dictates. Given Iran, Saddam, Ghadaffi, Assad, Putin, Xi have all resisted such dictates, I wonder now what Trump and the Washington mob will do to the UK. Could be interesting. 

 

[Wombat + 1,028]

9 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

This should be a fun thread.

Tom, before you sanction me for abusive language, I want to let you know that the word "toadie" is highly offensive here in Australia and that Simon would cop a punch in the head if he said it to anyone's face.

[Wombat + 1,028]

Indeed, I found the term "Trump toadie" to be abusive and I want you to take that into consideration before you "moderate".

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

20 minutes ago, Wombat said:

Tom, before you sanction me for abusive language, I want to let you know that the word "toadie" is highly offensive here in Australia and that Simon would cop a punch in the head if he said it to anyone's face.

 

17 minutes ago, Wombat said:

Indeed, I found the term "Trump toadie" to be abusive and I want you to take that into consideration before you "moderate".

 

How about less punch in the face and more laughing off provocations.

Personally, I found Trump Toadie to be amusingly expected when quoting The Guardian.

As a moderator, I cannot really police how people will react, but will continue to encourage everyone to debate the issues, not personalities.

[BLA + 1,666]

22 hours ago, Tom Kirkman said:

This should be a fun thread.

HERE WE GO AGAIN

The British Prime Minister Boris Johnson says Huawei is not a threat. The Chinese told him so. 

Boris Johnson's appeasement policy toward China will not end up well. . . .

Just ask Neville Chamberlain

Disappointed in Europe.  Bunch of Fairweather friends.  

Chinese hegemony is a threat to all.  When the going gets tough .  .  .   Europe is nowhere to be found

Edited February 23, 2020 by BLA

[Marcin2 + 725]

10 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

The Guardian? Lol lol lol lol lol 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Try to diversify your sources. When interested in this or that topic I read a spectrum of media: US, British, German, industry & business platforms if I need specific insight like in offshoring or chip industry, even Chinese, Russian or Middle Eastern at times. 
The message is on many levels: raw information, attached commentary, way of presentation, bias related to omission of certain aspects of the topic. A lot of you can also derive from the language, usage of specific words or phrases.

[Marcin2 + 725]

3 hours ago, BLA said:

 

Just ask Neville Chamberlain

Disappointed in Europe.  Bunch of Fairweather friends.  

Chinese hegemony is a threat to all.  When the going gets tough .  .  .   Europe is nowhere to be found

My major concern is how far it has to get, how serious, what measures are you going to implement, how much US society could radicalize ?

How far it needs to get, before you let it go.

I sense that a lot of American users here are actually internally ashamed of their radicalization.

I think that is why it is difficult for you to directly answer my provocative at times, but well researched comments.

I ask very inconvenient questions and a lot of Americans have difficulty to answer them, or admit that the answers are bordering radical nationalism or at times fascism.

Would it be right to destroy a foreign country, and probably also yours, just because they are dictatorship and there are 4 times more of them, so long term you do  not have a chance to win ?

I am afraid of the herd mentality I observe also here and generally in US narrative.

It is good that you mentioned Chamberlain.
Chris Hedges, Pullitzer winning author, wrote a book „American fascist” - try to understand its message.

My crystal ball tells me that 2022 cnn headlines could be: How long can we stand Uighur genocide, they are Jews of our times, we need to stop China even by military means”

 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

11 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

The Guardian? Lol lol lol lol lol 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

What's wrong with the Guardian? 😆

 

[BLA + 1,666]

9 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

My major concern is how far it has to get, how serious, what measures are you going to implement, how much US society could radicalize ?

How far it needs to get, before you let it go.

I sense that a lot of American users here are actually internally ashamed of their radicalization.

I think that is why it is difficult for you to directly answer my provocative at times, but well researched comments.

I ask very inconvenient questions and a lot of Americans have difficulty to answer them, or admit that the answers are bordering radical nationalism or at times fascism.

Would it be right to destroy a foreign country, and probably also yours, just because they are dictatorship and there are 4 times more of them, so long term you do  not have a chance to win ?

I am afraid of the herd mentality I observe also here and generally in US narrative.

It is good that you mentioned Chamberlain.
Chris Hedges, Pullitzer winning author, wrote a book „American fascist” - try to understand its message.

My crystal ball tells me that 2022 cnn headlines could be: How long can we stand Uighur genocide, they are Jews of our times, we need to stop China even by military means”

 

Facist America ? Please spare me. 

U.S. asking their "Ally" to unite to confront the Chinese security threat is facist ?

Europe is all for alliances as long as the U.S. foots the bill.

As long as they can block U.S. products with tariffs, then have a tantrum when U.S. suggest reciprocal tariffs.

As long as U.S. spends trillions to confront terrorist and keep a peace around the world and in the Mideast so they can keep their oil shipments flowing. 

As long as U.S. spends billions for Europe's defense ,then have no problem buying Putin's natural gas over U.S. natural gas.

It wasn't just Trump's Pompeo telling Europe what the reality is, but also the Democratic Party delegation headed by Pelosi that was explaining the urgency. Pelosi spoke just as firmly as Pompeo regarding the Chinese threat.

Who's the one jeopardizing the alliance to this extent for the first time since 1940 ?  If you want the answer look on the mirror.

Can the U.S. succeed without a unified U.S./Europe ?  Don't know but it's the European countries that are signing up for China's Belt and Road and accepts their continued civil rights abuses. Those Faustian deals with China will come back to haunt the EU.

China welcomes Europe's machinery, foodstuffs and vehicles .  .  .   just until they can dominate that industry .  .  .   then China will throw Europe out like yesterday's newspaper. China will dictate the terms to the EU once they get their class in them. 

U.S. has made it clear that China is the number 1 security threat to the free industrial countries of the world and asked their allies in Europe to help confront the threat.    

If Europe won't work with U.S.  why should  U.S. continue to support NATO or invest billions into Europe missile defenses.  EU wants U.S. to protect them from Russia but stiff U.S. on a simple request to buy an alternative technology supplier. EU wants the best from both sides of the or U.S. and China. The time has come where they have to make a choice.

Nothing will happen until after U.S. election.

Trump has put Globalism on pause because it has excluded a large portion of the U.S. population.  It leaves behind a sector of the U.S. Trump is the only one to confront China for what it is . Biden and Bloomberg will kowtow to China (and personally make millions and billions)

The threat by Huawei is real.  Make no mistake about it.  The threat is in early stages.  With 5G, Artificial Intelligence and Internet of things (IOT) just starting to get deployed there is little time to stop the Chinese dominance. Understand 5G is about much more than just smartphones, it is about everything that has a microprocessor . 

Chinese society is dominated by a controlling SURVEILLENCE government.  Is that what Europe wants.  

Granted China can be vindictive to countries/companies that do not fall in line. Germany sells more cars in China than any other.  It's a Hobson's Choice. If EU and U.S. put forth a United front against China it would be a win-win situation.

The only way to confront China may be a United front.  The alternative is each country go it alone.  

China will be very accommodating to Europe , until they don't need them.  

Again don't try to pin it on Trump's"America First".  Democratic House leader Nancy Pelosi was just as insistent as Pompeo with her speech.

Edited February 23, 2020 by BLA

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

16 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

“America First” may work for some in your country. But “the west”, meaning a multinational, democratic alliance that champions shared principles, aims and laws, is not winning. If this were a movie, it would be called How The West Was Lost – with Trump as outlaw-in-chief.

 

 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Solmemes1/status/1231326273894526976

 

[Marcin2 + 725]

@BLA I agree with most of what you said about Europe free ride in security area.

My major concern, I am trying to understand American soul, concern is how far United States is willing to go in its confrontation with China ?

Tariffs won’t work as expect, I can assure you. Technology embargo is a short- term solution and Double- edged sword that already hit US.

I mean if China will collapse under its own weight, it is fine.

What if China will not collapse and economically and technologically develop so as to surpass US ?

Will you accept it or start war with China, before it is too strong ?

I asked this question 50 times at this forum.

Umfortunately nobody was willing to answer, apart from @0R0.

What bothers you, your too radical  opinions ?

Edited February 23, 2020 by Marcin2
Typo

[Marcin2 + 725]

Europeans are willing to go to tariffs and common approach to IP, access to domestic market, preventing Chinese technology aquisition through M&A or JVs.

But not more, not embargos, villification of China and in consequence war.

How far US will go ?

[GunnysGhost + 157]

If the US kowtowing to the UN and EU is a prerequisite for success of 'the West' then I'm out. 

The US should re-affirm trade deals with post-Brexit UK.  If EU penalizes other countries such as Poland, then UK and US should take up the trade vacuum in those (most likely Eastern European) countries should any erupt. 

Brexit is reality.  The new long-game is establishing what constitutes 'the West', and if there are multiple silos of 'West', then accept, capitalize on opportunities wherever they are. 

 

In fact, President Trump should enhance the rhetoric around "we're gonna out-Special Relationship the EU on trade with UK' as a favor to the UK.  Competition breeds incentive for deals on either side. 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by GunnysGhost

[BLA + 1,666]

5 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

@BLA I agree with most of what you said about Europe free ride in security area.

My major concern, I am trying to understand American soul, concern is how far United States is willing to go in its confrontation with China ?

Tariffs won’t work as expect, I can assure you. Technology embargo is a short- term solution and Double- edged sword that already hit US.

I mean if China will collapse under its own weight, it is fine.

What if China will not collapse and economically and technologically develop so as to surpass US ?

Will you accept it or start war with China, before it is too strong ?

I asked this question 50 times at this forum.

Umfortunately nobody was willing to answer, apart from @0R0.

What bothers you, your too radical  opinions ?

What war ? You talk like an idiot. 

U.S. villification of China. You sound like Biden and Bloomberg.  Don't be so naive . 

Radical U.S.  ? 

If Europe wants to side with China they can go ahead at their own peril.  

U.S. will not start a war.  Will probably see long term disengage from China technically.  Build on Coalition of USMCA TRADE AGREEMENT while incorporating South America and any reasonable countries in Africa and Asia that want to trade with U.S. in a fair manner. 

All U.S. manufacturing has left for cheap labor and no corporate income taxes (transfer pricing) .

If I were Trump and Europe wants to use Huawei equipment,  right after U.S. election I would put a blanket 15% import fee (no tariff) on all imports from EU and Britain. Then change U.S. corporate income tax to 15% for income earned in U.S. and 12% on income earned outside of U.S. 

I would scale back U.S. yearly NATO contribution to the European average percentage from their previous 3 years.  Fair is fair. I would phase out European missile defense system U.S. pays for in full thus saving U.S. taxpayers 10's of billions a year. 

While at it why play around with Chinese  tariffs . Put a flat import fee on on all Chinese exports to U.S. of 15%.

EU will do business with China for maybe 15 years until China dumps them.  Then EU will be the mercy of whatever terms China wants to dictates.

Someone should inform Boris Johnson the sun has set on the British Empire.Is it too much to ask Boris to use another vendors 5G product.  

U.S. doesn't need EU military. They never contribute.  The EU might need the U.S. military.

EU complains about U.S. technology company's dominance.  Wonder why Europe does not foster the development of innovative tech ?  EU socialist tendecies are not conducive with technology startups.

Now EU like Russia, China, Iran and North Korea are praying that Trump loses reelection. They want a globalist U.S. President that will screw the American worker, eliminate the middle class and fill their pockets with cash.

You can grow world economies, protect the middle-class and have fair trade..  But everyone (U.S., EU, Asia incld China) must all play by the same rules.  

There is no perfect government system , but some are much better than others.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by BLA