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Thoughts on Multiculturalism in Europe

Twenty-plus years ago I lived in England, had a Sri Lankan boyfriend, an Israeli best friend who shared a flat with a Palestinian guy, and a Persian housemate. This is still my idea of multiculturalism. Yet 20 years later what I read and see about Europe -- and Turkey but that's a different question altogether -- suggests the multicultural model governments have been shoving down people's throats has begun to backfire and it is backfiring spectacularly.

Take the hidden camera film about the encapsulated Muslim neighbourhoods in Paris. This is no spin and no fake news. I have a friend who lives and Paris and she has vouched for the genuineness of these neighbourhoods. There are similar places in Germany, too, if we are to believe none other than Angela Merkel, who said in an interview such encapsulated areas have no place in the German society. Ironic, given she put a lot of effort into taking migration to ridiculous levels.

Then there's Denmark, where I saw (hopefully because I only had three days) multiculturalism still working, probably because the country, as far as I remember, limited its intake of economic (sic) refugees. There I saw people of various colors all smiling and friendly, as befits one of the happiest nations in the world. And then I saw a boy that eyed me suspiciously for several minutes until I felt extremely uncomfortable (I went out to smoke and forgot the keys to the Airbnb, okay? Don't tell anyone). That one single boy is new to the country, I'm sure. I really hope he won't look at this very typical Middle Eastern way at people in five years. Because he will have assimilated.

Assimilation is the only sensible way of actually accomplishing multiculturalism that doesn't give rise to racist extremists. I will here quote Mr. Schwarz, an expat in a country neighbouring his home one, who, after 20 years here says "We" when he talks about the locals and "they" when he talks about his countrymen and countrywomen. The only way to have a decent life in a foreign country even one that is culturally close to your home one, is to assimilate, learn the language and the culture, and make it your own. This emphatically does not suggest you need to give up your own culture or religion. What it does suggest is that if you want to live in a society you need to become a part of it, rather than an appendage that feeds from a society, operates in it, but remains a separate part of that society and, ultimately, does not contribute to the greater good. That's what encapsulation is all about and to me, it is the one single negative aspect of the recent migration waves that can bring the whole European Union down.

How did we get here? We need to thank PC gone mad and congenital human stupidity. The more you force a group of people to accept something new and unfamiliar as normal and familiar without giving them enough time to process this thing, the more they will clench their teeth and refuse to eat it. The pendulum, as I like to say, always swings. The further it swings into one direction, the further it will then swing into the opposite one. it's just one of these laws that can't be violated. And personally, I believe Western Europe is being so stupid because they have no group memory of the Ottoman empire ruling over them. We do although we won't continue to have this memory for long as history is being rewritten. Literally.

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Can you expand on that "memory of the Ottoman empire ruling over" you?  I was taught that the Ottoman Empire existed, but have no clue what it was like. 

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I agree with your analysis of the current situation. However, I believe that root cause is lack of economic integration, which is then made worse by cultural isolation. Basically I think that if we could integrate immigrants into our economy cultures could co-exist. In fact, everybody would win, as Europe needs these workers due to current demographics. 

There are encapsuled areas in Denmark too, although they are not as bad as Paris, but also very good examples. And almost all of the good start with integrating people into the economy - i.e. finding them work. And we need their labour... 

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5 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I agree with your analysis of the current situation. However, I believe that root cause is lack of economic integration, which is then made worse by cultural isolation. Basically I think that if we could integrate immigrants into our economy cultures could co-exist. In fact, everybody would win, as Europe needs these workers due to current demographics. 

There are encapsuled areas in Denmark too, although they are not as bad as Paris, but also very good examples. And almost all of the good start with integrating people into the economy - i.e. finding them work. And we need their labour... 

When we talk about integrating new people into a country, which parts of the host country's culture should we expect them to adopt, and which parts of their culture can be left intact?  I.e. to what extent must they integrate to be functional members? 

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8 hours ago, mthebold said:

When we talk about integrating new people into a country, which parts of the host country's culture should we expect them to adopt, and which parts of their culture can be left intact?  I.e. to what extent must they integrate to be functional members? 

It guess it depends on how you define culture. Take me forexample. I watch American made movies & listen to 70s country. I eat Italian, French, Spanish and South American food. I have a good friend that from Iran - he is a surgeon. I could go on. Diversity is good.

What I think is essential when integrating new comers is that we make them understand understand the laws and social codes of our societies. And we are failing at that. Big time. Remember when you point 1 finger at others you point 3 at yourself. A simplistic summary is that European immigration policies are failing because

1) We do not properly  explain to immigrants, in a language they can understand (and by that I mean social language) how our society functions etc. Our immigration policies are built basis a western understanding of people. 

2) Many Europeans are scared of losing social benefits to immigrants. They fear that immigrants will take theirs. It the old pie theory - they worry about their slice of the pie instead of worrying about making the pie bigger! 

I run my own business. It is not labour intensive, but I have many friends that own and run labour intensive businesses. Interestingly, they all say that it is not always Western European labour that has the best work ethics - I have many examples. Once immigrants make into employment they generally do well in the job and in society. They just don't understand how crack our social codes to find employment. Now, I guess you could say - bad luck for them. They should just put more effort into learning. Fair play. Except - we need their labour. so everybody wins if we change our immigration policies. 

Let me be clear - I don't deny there are bad examples. I don't deny there are problems. I don't deny that there many immigrants, maybe too many. I just say - let's be constructive! As stated earlier - I do not believe in zero sum thinking. 

Side-note : If Europe collective had taken responsibillity we wouldn't have so many immigrants.

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Marina Schwarz

(edited)

52 minutes ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

What I think is essential when integrating new comers is that we make them understand understand the laws and social codes of our societies. And we are failing at that.

Spot on. Thank you for this summary.

Also with you on the responsibility but as we can all see this responsibility-taking has now swung too far. Now everything is Europe's fault.

Edited by Marina Schwarz

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22 hours ago, mthebold said:

Can you expand on that "memory of the Ottoman empire ruling over" you?  I was taught that the Ottoman Empire existed, but have no clue what it was like. 

Of course I could. I'll leave that for another day, however. It's going to be long because I will need to incorporate the latest deliberate change in how we see history. :)

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8 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

It guess it depends on how you define culture. Take me forexample. I watch American made movies & listen to 70s country. I eat Italian, French, Spanish and South American food. I have a good friend that from Iran - he is a surgeon. I could go on. Diversity is good.

What I think is essential when integrating new comers is that we make them understand understand the laws and social codes of our societies. And we are failing at that. Big time. Remember when you point 1 finger at others you point 3 at yourself. A simplistic summary is that European immigration policies are failing because

1) We do not properly  explain to immigrants, in a language they can understand (and by that I mean social language) how our society functions etc. Our immigration policies are built basis a western understanding of people. 

2) Many Europeans are scared of losing social benefits to immigrants. They fear that immigrants will take theirs. It the old pie theory - they worry about their slice of the pie instead of worrying about making the pie bigger! 

I run my own business. It is not labour intensive, but I have many friends that own and run labour intensive businesses. Interestingly, they all say that it is not always Western European labour that has the best work ethics - I have many examples. Once immigrants make into employment they generally do well in the job and in society. They just don't understand how crack our social codes to find employment. Now, I guess you could say - bad luck for them. They should just put more effort into learning. Fair play. Except - we need their labour. so everybody wins if we change our immigration policies. 

Let me be clear - I don't deny there are bad examples. I don't deny there are problems. I don't deny that there many immigrants, maybe too many. I just say - let's be constructive! As stated earlier - I do not believe in zero sum thinking. 

Side-note : If Europe collective had taken responsibillity we wouldn't have so many immigrants.

Sounds reasonable at face value.  I'd question a couple points though: 

1) Expanding the pie requires a certain level of intelligence & education along with certain virtues.  If immigrants possessed those traits, why didn't they expand the pie in their own country?  You'll point out America's history of immigration.  I would not this difference: in the past, America had land to spare.  Immigrants ventured forth to the frontier and made their own way.  Failure meant death.  None of that is the case in modern, wealthy welfare states, so past immigration cannot be used as an example.  

2) Being a good citizen is more than being an industrious, low-level employee.  Mexico, for example, is full of hard working people.  Mexico is also corrupt, violent, and incapable of "expanding the pie" - all due to the culture that exists there.  If you tolerate that culture in your own country, you won't get an expanded pie; you'll get what Mexico has.  

3) On one hand, people claim automation is killing jobs.  On the other hand, they claim we simply cannot survive without immigrants.  Which is it?  Furthermore, what's wrong with your culture that people won't procreate?  In America, I hear women say that they refuse to bring children into such a terrible world; is it the same in Europe?  And if so, how do we expect humanity to make progress if the people with foresight (i.e. the intelligent people) refuse to bear children?  If that continues, there will be no Western culture, and the world will devolve into the medieval mess it was before Western Humanism existed.  

There are, of course, exceptions within any culture.  I have no doubt that a doctor, lawyer, or other working professional could understand Western culture, see its advantages, and integrate smoothly.  Unfortunately, the immigration the US & Europe are seeing isn't professionals.  It's the masses.  I don't see that working out well.  

 

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2 hours ago, mthebold said:

Sounds reasonable at face value.  I'd question a couple points though: 

1) Expanding the pie requires a certain level of intelligence & education along with certain virtues.  If immigrants possessed those traits, why didn't they expand the pie in their own country?  You'll point out America's history of immigration.  I would not this difference: in the past, America had land to spare.  Immigrants ventured forth to the frontier and made their own way.  Failure meant death.  None of that is the case in modern, wealthy welfare states, so past immigration cannot be used as an example.  

2) Being a good citizen is more than being an industrious, low-level employee.  Mexico, for example, is full of hard working people.  Mexico is also corrupt, violent, and incapable of "expanding the pie" - all due to the culture that exists there.  If you tolerate that culture in your own country, you won't get an expanded pie; you'll get what Mexico has.  

3) On one hand, people claim automation is killing jobs.  On the other hand, they claim we simply cannot survive without immigrants.  Which is it?  Furthermore, what's wrong with your culture that people won't procreate?  In America, I hear women say that they refuse to bring children into such a terrible world; is it the same in Europe?  And if so, how do we expect humanity to make progress if the people with foresight (i.e. the intelligent people) refuse to bear children?  If that continues, there will be no Western culture, and the world will devolve into the medieval mess it was before Western Humanism existed.  

There are, of course, exceptions within any culture.  I have no doubt that a doctor, lawyer, or other working professional could understand Western culture, see its advantages, and integrate smoothly.  Unfortunately, the immigration the US & Europe are seeing isn't professionals.  It's the masses.  I don't see that working out well.  

I don't deny any of questions / points you raise. I think we agree on more than we disagree.

Where we seem to disagree is that you seem to be leaning towards "zero sum thinking", whereas I am the opposite. I honestly believe that regulated economic growth (regulated so as to avoid things like child labour, trade imbalances i.e. things any reasonable person can agree is horrible) through the free market and innovation can lift people out of poverty. Everywhere I have travelled in Africa and South America I have encountered people that want to work and make a living for their families. That means the basis is alrigth. There is something to build on.

Now, I am not naive - the world will not change over nigth and nor will peoples attitude. 

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3 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I don't deny any of questions / points you raise. I think we agree on more than we disagree.

Where we seem to disagree is that you seem to be leaning towards "zero sum thinking", whereas I am the opposite. I honestly believe that regulated economic growth (regulated so as to avoid things like child labour, trade imbalances i.e. things any reasonable person can agree is horrible) through the free market and innovation can lift people out of poverty. Everywhere I have travelled in Africa and South America I have encountered people that want to work and make a living for their families. That means the basis is alrigth. There is something to build on.

Now, I am not naive - the world will not change over nigth and nor will peoples attitude. 

I'm still not seeing how my thinking is "zero sum".  Any situation can be positive sum, negative sum, or zero sum depending on who is involved & how it's played.  What am I missing?  

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7 hours ago, mthebold said:

3) On one hand, people claim automation is killing jobs.  On the other hand, they claim we simply cannot survive without immigrants.  Which is it?  Furthermore, what's wrong with your culture that people won't procreate?  In America, I hear women say that they refuse to bring children into such a terrible world; is it the same in Europe?  And if so, how do we expect humanity to make progress if the people with foresight (i.e. the intelligent people) refuse to bear children?  If that continues, there will be no Western culture, and the world will devolve into the medieval mess it was before Western Humanism existed.  

I think a lot of women in Europe simply have other interests they would rather pursue than raising children. Also, a lot of women are delaying having children in favour of career building and some delay it too long. You're free to blame radical feminism for that. I probably would if I thought it's appropriate to lay blame. Also, I think reproductive problems are on the rise at least in certain parts of Europe. Not sure about the factors at play but there's probably a multitude of them. 

Isn't the "terrible world" argument old? I so thought it was.

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1 hour ago, Marina Schwarz said:

I think a lot of women in Europe simply have other interests they would rather pursue than raising children. Also, a lot of women are delaying having children in favour of career building and some delay it too long. You're free to blame radical feminism for that. I probably would if I thought it's appropriate to lay blame. Also, I think reproductive problems are on the rise at least in certain parts of Europe. Not sure about the factors at play but there's probably a multitude of them. 

Isn't the "terrible world" argument old? I so thought it was.

I'm not interested in placing blame; just pointing out what's happening and what the consequences will be. Stupid people breed like rabbits because they can't imagine the consequences of their actions - and even if they could imagine, they still lack the discipline to do anything about it.  Intelligent people have foresight, and that foresight allows them to imagine the evils of the world bearing down upon them, the pain they'll endure, the work of parenting, etc.  It's not a coincidence that seduction involves disabling the other person's critical thinking - or that the most promiscuous people tend not to be the brightest.  Anyway, the people the world needs most are exactly the ones not procreating.  Ironically, these very same people whine about the idiocracy we're becoming.

The "terrible world" argument is old and incorrect - but I still hear it.  Part of that may be the above-average intelligence of people I socialize with, but I think a lot of it is my generation being irresponsible snowflakes.  It's also a cop-out.  If they were truly worried about the world, they'd analyze the situation dispassionately and then make the sacrifices to improve it.  

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Ah, but dispassionate is so out. Hyperemotional is in. And we do it voluntarily. What a ridiculous species. But lovable, let's not forget. We're lovable. :)

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6 hours ago, mthebold said:

I'm still not seeing how my thinking is "zero sum".  Any situation can be positive sum, negative sum, or zero sum depending on who is involved & how it's played.  What am I missing?  

My point is simply that immigrants can be a resource. To an extent maybe an unwanted resource, but a resource none-the-less. A resource with capacity for good and bad as all human beings. How we choose interact with them has a big impact on how this resource develops. If we see and treat them as a paria that then likelyhood of them becoming that is bigger. Whereas if meet them at their level and speak to them in way they can understand we can develop this resource in a positive way. You will say : why should we? it is their responsibillity. My answer is : What does it matter whos responsibillity it is if it works out well for all parties? 

In another thread you mentioned that immigration causes downward pressure on wages. My answer to that is that competetion is good. Competetion makes us do better, innovate... in short create growth. I understand that this has to be balanced and not just achieved on the back of cheap labor. 

I am an employer. I will always hire the best candidate. Regardless of religion, skincolour or passport. Interestingly, The best candidates do not always look like me. What we look for when we hire is willingness to learn and work. that's it. When then put a lot of effort into training.

Edited by Rasmus Jorgensen
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9 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

My point is simply that immigrants can be a resource. To an extent maybe an unwanted resource, but a resource none-the-less. A resource with capacity for good and bad as all human beings. How we choose interact with them has a big impact on how this resource develops. If we see and treat them as a paria that then likelyhood of them becoming that is bigger. Whereas if meet them at their level and speak to them in way they can understand we can develop this resource in a positive way. You will say : why should we? it is their responsibillity. My answer is : What does it matter whos responsibillity it is if it works out well for all parties? 

In another thread you mentioned that immigration causes downward pressure on wages. My answer to that is that competetion is good. Competetion makes us do better, innovate... in short create growth. I understand that this has to be balanced and not just achieved on the back of cheap labor. 

I am an employer. I will always hire the best candidate. Regardless of religion, skincolour or passport. Interestingly, The best candidates do not always look like me. What we look for when we hire is willingness to learn and work. that's it. When then put a lot of effort into training.

Fair enough.  

Why aren't we putting that same effort into our fellow citizens though?  

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3 hours ago, mthebold said:

Fair enough.  

Why aren't we putting that same effort into our fellow citizens though?  

Not sure what you mean? I put the same effort into every employee, person etc. I do not give preferential treatment to anybody. That includes people with Danish passports. A human being is a human being. 

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PB

(edited)

1 hour ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

Not sure what you mean? I put the same effort into every employee, person etc. I do not give preferential treatment to anybody. That includes people with Danish passports. A human being is a human being. 

We owe more support to the families who paid taxes their entire lives, fought the wars for freedom, and built the country's wealth.  Your commitment to your own citizens should be higher than your commitment to immigrants.  First, take care of the people who got you where you are.  Then look outward.

On that note, you've framed your position as "equal treatment for all", but it would just as accurately be framed as, "Maximum offloading of responsibility by corporations onto governments, and minimum labor costs through increasing the labor pool."  You're no more noble than anyone else.  

Edited by mthebold
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On 11/9/2018 at 11:45 PM, mthebold said:

We owe more support to the families who paid taxes their entire lives, fought the wars for freedom, and built the country's wealth.  Your commitment to your own citizens should be higher than your commitment to immigrants.  First, take care of the people who got you where you are.  Then look outward.

For starters - I am sorry if I came across as trying to paint a picture of myself as being noble. That was not my intention. 

I actually think you are missing my point. I believe that if we turn immigrants into a positive resource then that has a positive impact on society, An impact that is to the benefit of natural born citizens as well, including myself and my family. Like it or not, as far as Europe is concerned, immigrants are here and they will keep coming (this is a fact - look at living conditions in Africa and compare to Europe). We can then choose

1)  spend money on keeping them away which won't work or 

1)  spend money integrating them into our economy so that we create growth at home and

3) enact policies that allow them to build their own economies... this is the only sustainable way to stop migration.

The problem with my approach:

1) It aims at the longterm. No short-term relief. 

2) No short-term feel good by watching other being miserable. 

Fundamentally, I believe that anti-immigrantion parties through-out the West does not actually help the people they claim to be helping. However, they do a good job giving that impression. Now, you could rigthfully say that it is easy for me to take this stance as I am not in the middle of the problems. I have no counter to that. I know that it easy for me to point to solutions when I am not feeling the brunt of the pain in my near or extended family or community. But it does not mean that I am wrong either.

On 11/9/2018 at 11:45 PM, mthebold said:

"Maximum offloading of responsibility by corporations onto governments, and minimum labor costs through increasing the labor pool." 

This is just plain wrong. As mentioned in another thread - the total social cost increases when more people are covered. That is a fact. I am happy to have a discussion about different approaches and points of view. that is good. But statements that blatantly ignore facts does not belong in a serious discussion. 

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3 hours ago, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

For starters - I am sorry if I came across as trying to paint a picture of myself as being noble. That was not my intention. 

I actually think you are missing my point. I believe that if we turn immigrants into a positive resource then that has a positive impact on society, An impact that is to the benefit of natural born citizens as well, including myself and my family. Like it or not, as far as Europe is concerned, immigrants are here and they will keep coming (this is a fact - look at living conditions in Africa and compare to Europe). We can then choose

1)  spend money on keeping them away which won't work or 

1)  spend money integrating them into our economy so that we create growth at home and

3) enact policies that allow them to build their own economies... this is the only sustainable way to stop migration.

The problem with my approach:

1) It aims at the longterm. No short-term relief. 

2) No short-term feel good by watching other being miserable. 

Fundamentally, I believe that anti-immigrantion parties through-out the West does not actually help the people they claim to be helping. However, they do a good job giving that impression. Now, you could rigthfully say that it is easy for me to take this stance as I am not in the middle of the problems. I have no counter to that. I know that it easy for me to point to solutions when I am not feeling the brunt of the pain in my near or extended family or community. But it does not mean that I am wrong either.

This is just plain wrong. As mentioned in another thread - the total social cost increases when more people are covered. That is a fact. I am happy to have a discussion about different approaches and points of view. that is good. But statements that blatantly ignore facts does not belong in a serious discussion. 

Border control is not difficult if taken seriously, and whether other countries maintain their own stability is not my burden to bear.  It is not, in fact, necessary to police the entire world in order to keep immigrants out of my own. If they can prove their value and are willing to adopt my country's culture, then we  should consider allowing them.  Otherwise, they can stay home and fix their own country.  

As rebutted in the other thread, more people does not imply higher costs.  When medicine & other services are socialized, the care is not equal for all.  Medical providers figure out that politicians write their paychecks and prioritize resources according to which patients are most politically valuable.  If you don't believe this, study VA healthcare in the US.  It's a train wreck that everyone pays lip service to, but no one will bother to fix. There's no money in it. 

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Just a small interjection here, if you don't mind:  The differences in society and the populations involved factor heavily into the points about health care.  The VA reference is absolutely valid in the U.S., but in relatively small countries with little global military commitments, not so much.  Please continue, your conversation is fleshing out some good details.  I don't know if they can be applied each to the other, but they are good points nonetheless.

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We seem to have gotten off topic on this one.

So, to get back topic, I believe diversity is in fact good. To illustrate I will offer another example : My wife is cuban. My parents are getting older. In time, when my kids are little and I have built a house that is better suited for it, I would like for them to move with us so as to avoid them staying at nursing home for as long as possible. This is not a very Danish thing - we tend to farm this out to publicly run nursing homes (for several reasons, but that is a different discussion). My point is that I do not view Danish culture as superior in any and all things - outside input is good!

 

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Wow. This is a fascinating discussion.,  So good, in fact, that I shall restrain and refrain my usual temptation(s) to jump in and hijack it!

Marina, I thank you for starting up this discussion.  Cheers.

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Diversity can be a good asset.  However, words are important, and the word 'diversity' is often misunderstood.  Often, we think it means 'race', but in reality, it simply means 'knowledge'.  A diverse group of people are those who have a variety of different backgrounds that has resulted in a diverse base of knowledge.  So, for instance, electing a black man, an indian woman, and an adrogynous chinese person provides no real diversity if all three indivudals grew up on the same street and to families in the same social-economic strata.  However, electing three white males aged 24-29 would provide diversity if one came from a poor family in the midwest, another from a rich family that does business overseas, and that last from a missionary family out of Africa.  

Multiculturalism can strength a people when, like Marina says, assimilation does happen.  But what do you do when assimilation does not happen.  As a case in point, and speaking of...

On 11/8/2018 at 9:50 PM, Marina Schwarz said:

women in Europe

...I happened across some of articles today.  Since I was not intentionally searching for any of these articles (or their subject matter), I can only assume this is just the tip of the iceberg.  Also, these articles are all from this week: 

https://voiceofeurope.com/…/another-day-another-gang-rape-…/

https://voiceofeurope.com/…/14-moroccans-sexually-abuse-g…/…

https://voiceofeurope.com/…/sex-attacks-up-70-in-just-one-…/

https://www.dcclothesline.com/…/illegal-alien-released-by-…/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/…/shocking-video-shows-machete-ga…/

 

On 11/8/2018 at 5:25 AM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

What I think is essential when integrating new comers is that we make them understand understand the laws and social codes of our societies. And we are failing at that. Big time.

^Are we failing at teaching or are they failing at learning?  Education is a two-way street.  Sometimes a student deserves that F.  

On 11/8/2018 at 11:43 PM, mthebold said:

Stupid people breed like rabbits because they can't imagine the consequences of their actions - and even if they could imagine, they still lack the discipline to do anything about it.  Intelligent people have foresight, and that foresight allows them to imagine the evils of the world bearing down upon them, the pain they'll endure, the work of parenting, etc. 

^I feel like you are describing the opening scenes in the movie Idiocracy.  ...it was a terrible movie, but a great predictor of the future.  

On 11/9/2018 at 2:20 AM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

My point is simply that immigrants can be a resource.

^The key word here is 'can'.  Simply because we want them or expect them to be a resource doesn't mean they won't just then go on to choose to become a terrible liability.  I do, however, agree with what you said about competition.  

On 11/12/2018 at 4:13 AM, Rasmus Jorgensen said:

I believe that if we turn immigrants into a positive resource then that has a positive impact on society, An impact that is to the benefit of natural born citizens as well, including myself and my family. 

^Again, you are making this about you, when, in reality, you have no real say in what someone else chooses to do.  Yes, they may decide to do what you want them to do by them choosing to have a positive impact on society, or they may decide to rape your daughter because she was alone at night and without her male escort, which, of course, violates their law. 

Key word: "their."

The early immigrants in America assimilated so well primarily because there were no government handouts waiting for them upon arrival.  In order to succeed in America, those immigrants had to interact with the Americans who were already established, and this integration fostered that assimilation.  Today, however, huge government handouts make such interaction unnecessary, and this now handicaps both today's immigrants as well as today's taxpayers.  

The best thing that could be done to help immigrants effectively assimilate would be to immediately end all social programs and aid packages for said immigrants.  This would include mandating that hospitals are no longer required to treat illegal immigrants at tax-payer expense.  

Make crime illegal again!  (<--- I feel like that slogan would work well on a hat).

 

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Sadly, these headlines are not going away anytime soon. Even more sadly, there are certain groups of women who blame this, too, on the local men and "the patriarchy."

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@Epic

Firstly, I never defined diversity as race. The context for @Marina Schwarzs blog post was cultural diversity. 

Secondly, I am explicitly saying that the single largest reason for problems with immigrants in Europe is NOT that their culture is different. It is that they are NOT economically integrated into our societies. This is then made worse by the cultural differences. Something you seem to agree with:

3 hours ago, Epic said:

So, for instance, electing a black man, an indian woman, and an adrogynous chinese person provides no real diversity if all three indivudals grew up on the same street and to families in the same social-economic strata.

I am NOT denying anything you are raising. I am simply saying that the only way to fix this is to change integration policies so we can achieve economic integration. There is historic precedence for this : back in the 80s and 90s there was a saying that no country with a McDonalds in it had ever attacked America. The point was once people experienced economic growth they did not want to return to the life they had before. 

 

3 hours ago, Epic said:

^The key word here is 'can'.  Simply because we want them or expect them to be a resource doesn't mean they won't just then go on to choose to become a terrible liability.  I do, however, agree with what you said about competition.  

To elaborate on my view : How we design our integration policies CAN define how immigrants interact with our societies. The very first communication lesson I learned was that there is a sender and a receiver. As sender you need to think about how the receiver interprets your message. Our immigration policies are designed believing the recievers are like us. Of course they fail. @Jan Van Eck would put this down to poor quality bureaucrats. 

Now, you can say - if they come here, they need to adapt to us. Whilst the statement makes sense, it is not working. So, who cares if we need to re-design our integration policies if that works? Seriously, who cares if we need to meet them at their level if it makes these problems go away. I don't. I am a very pragmatic person. Immigrants will keep coming. Regardless of what border control means we put in place. Take one look at living conditions in Africa and compare them to Europe. So, why not do something real about this? 

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Further to my above - I know there are lots of bad examples. There are also good. I have many small ones from my private life. And I can also show you lots of examples of bad stories and crime committed by natural born Danes. The real question is : Do we want to to actually improve the societies we live in? Or de we want to get short-term feel good by blaming our woes on others? I choose the former. I realize that I am giving very simple answers to a complex problems. This is partly because my written English could be better and partly because this is a very difficutl discussion to have as we come from very different and cultural contexts - reference my above re communication

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