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Ten days ago Trump sent New York Hydroxychloroquine. Being administered to infected. Covid deaths dropped last few days. Fewer on ventilators. Hydroxychloroquine "Cause and Effect" ?

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(edited)

Today New York Times continues to claim no proof it works.  There is significant statistical evidence it works.  New York times should talk to Governor Cuomo.  NY Times politics before lives.

New York Times and Joe Biden continues to praise  China's control of virus.  Chinese Communist Party (CCP) hid the true data about the pandemic for months .  World Health Organization lied for China.  New York Times politics before lives. 

Seems to be working in New York City.

The Michigan Governor threatened to revoke any Dr's Medical License if they prescribe Hydroxychloroquine.  NOW SHE IS PLEADING WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO PLEASE SEND THE HCQ.

Whitehouse fight over Hydroxychloroquine

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-white-house-01306286-0bbc-4042-9bfe-890413c6220d.html

This drug has been prescribed for 60 years.  Mostly for Malaria in  Africa and parts of Southeast Asia or visitors to these regions.

OVER ONE BILLION PRESCRIPTIONS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN.  IT'S SAFE.

Edited by BLA
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5 hours ago, BLA said:

This drug has been prescribed for 60 years.  Mostly for Africa or visitors to Africa. 

OVER ONE BILLION PRESCRIPTIONS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN.  IT'S SAFE.

Screenshot_20200406-123754_Brave.thumb.jpg.2fd4197a44888fea15afc9562b0a4203.jpg

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5 hours ago, BLA said:

OVER ONE BILLION PRESCRIPTIONS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN.  IT'S SAFE.

Mostly. 

One of the most susceptible subsets of Covid patients to development of fatal lung complications are type 2 diabetics on certain drugs. Unfortunately, those are also the most likely to have fatal complications from hydroxychloroquine. But those patients can easily be sorted out. 

Henry Ford Hospital --a great place -- is now starting a 3,000 enrollment of healthcare workers to be randomized to HCQ or placebo. This should answer the question pretty soon . . . even to Dr. Fauci's satisfaction. 

There are eye complications from chloroquine, but as I recall these are only after long periods of treatment. 

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(edited)

On 4/6/2020 at 1:03 PM, Gerry Maddoux said:

Mostly. 

One of the most susceptible subsets of Covid patients to development of fatal lung complications are type 2 diabetics on certain drugs. Unfortunately, those are also the most likely to have fatal complications from hydroxychloroquine. But those patients can easily be sorted out. 

Henry Ford Hospital --a great place -- is now starting a 3,000 enrollment of healthcare workers to be randomized to HCQ or placebo. This should answer the question pretty soon . . . even to Dr. Fauci's satisfaction. 

There are eye complications from chloroquine, but as I recall these are only after long periods of treatment. 

I heard the drug can accumulate in the retina.  Not a problem if your physician monitors it. That incidence was 2% of those that took HCQ over a 10 year period. 

Edited by BLA
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(edited)

President is being misinformed again. He expects a further surge of cases the next 1.5 weeks. But the number is dropping like a stone, the the drive through testing is empty, emergency rooms are empty. Patients are being released from CV19 wards gradually. It looks far more like it is over than it is going to get worse. 

I expected to see a very rapid surge from Florida's fatal spring break invasion. It does not look to be hitting as hard as I expected in absolute numbers. The rate of the surge is steep but the extent and absolute numbers are not quite there. Now we are at 14 days from the peak of the elevated temperature curve, so we should see a slow down and then a tumble of new cases. 

Florida may just be sufficiently hot and humid to lower R0 towards 1. 

Edited by 0R0
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18 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

President is being misinformed again.

Well he fires anyone smart

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11 hours ago, BLA said:

Today New York Times continues to claim no proof it works.  There is significant statistical evidence it works.  New York times should talk to Governor Cuomo.  NY Times politics before lives.

New York Times and Joe Biden continues to praise  China's control of virus.  Chinese Communist Party (CCP) hid the true data about the pandemic for months .  World Health Organization lied for China.  New York Times politics before lives. 

Whitehouse fight over Hydroxychloroquine

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-white-house-01306286-0bbc-4042-9bfe-890413c6220d.html

This drug has been prescribed for 60 years.  Mostly for Africa or visitors to Africa. 

OVER ONE BILLION PRESCRIPTIONS HAVE BEEN WRITTEN.  IT'S SAFE.

I think the Faucis' of the medical profession should be identified and publicly castigated for their working against the public and for the benefit of drug companies and vaccine makers. Put them at the front of  the balcony and let the public berate them. 

The science is far more promising than randomized trials that mix the untreatables and treatable populations and don't follow the reality of measures but instead look to clinical evaluations disregarding their causes. A thoroughly anti-scientific approach. The HCQ/Z kills off the virus and eliminates hemoglobin attack by the virus. Safety parameters are well known. Construction of the tests is  easily skewed to hide effectiveness and apply the meds in patients that can't benefit from it and then judged by criteria that are irrelevant to the physiology of the drug's operation. 

 

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(edited)

What will his election cap say this time?  Will it be made in China or India?

His campaign office must be going insane - how do you win?

#Legacy of failure

Dead, broke, both, international embarrassment, economic collapse, China wins BIG (they are going to eat your lunch)

Edited by Enthalpic
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2 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Well he fires anyone smart

He fires people who deliberately upstage him and treat him like a kindergartner instead of informing him. Very different. 

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@Gerry Maddoux @ronwagn sent me a summary article of the new view of the physiology of the CV19 virus, I am following up on some sources. 

The key process is the virus attacking hemoglobin. 

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173

Which is precisely why the anti malarials work. They protect the hemoglobin from attack. And thus reduce complications and organ damage from oxygen deprivation caused by non functional red blood cells. This also  prevents virus replication. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16267760

 

The known mechanisms of HCQ raising pH to reduce virus reproductive rate and azithromycin as you noted stops viral multiplication in the infected cells. The insertion of Zinc into the infected cells  slowing the virus replication or killing it. Etc. 

From this alone, it is obvious that the entire treatment approach should be shifted as the focus of conventional treatment is largely irrelevant. 

Here is the summary Ron sent me

https://archive.is/ONUmi

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6 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Mostly. 

One of the most susceptible subsets of Covid patients to development of fatal lung complications are type 2 diabetics on certain drugs. Unfortunately, those are also the most likely to have fatal complications from hydroxychloroquine. But those patients can easily be sorted out. 

Henry Ford Hospital --a great place -- is now starting a 3,000 enrollment of healthcare workers to be randomized to HCQ or placebo. This should answer the question pretty soon . . . even to Dr. Fauci's satisfaction. 

There are eye complications from chloroquine, but as I recall these are only after long periods of treatment. 

Placebo, not "standard of care". Fauci won't be satisfied unless healthcare workers are sacrificed on the altar of "science" while he worries whether his Amgen et al stock will recover. He's been against chloroquine since he realized all patents had long since expired. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

Placebo, not "standard of care". Fauci won't be satisfied unless healthcare workers are sacrificed on the altar of "science" while he worries whether his Amgen et al stock will recover. He's been against chloroquine since he realized all patents had long since expired. 

Dr Fauci is very slowly warming to the temporary use of HCQ .  He seems to speak more about vaccine development (where the money will be made).  Of course, large quantities of any vaccine will not be available until the fall flu season of 2021 !  HCQ or similar medications are our only hope until then as well as physical distancing and universal wearing of masks (like Asia).

Dr Fauci's motive for spending time on vaccines is suspect because the only important issue at the moment is the number of hospital beds and supplies available, and how to reduce new cases of COVID-19 so those beds and supplies are sufficient.

Dr Fauci is only one medical expert on President Trump's panel.  In the end, Trump will set the timing for America to get back to work.

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33 minutes ago, WayneMechEng said:

Dr Fauci is only one medical expert on President Trump's panel.  In the end, Trump will set the timing for America to get back to work.

But the profession still suffers from myopia and group think and are unwilling to be the first to do anything. The standard of care in many instances is composed entirely of dogma and has little, or misinterpreted science behind it, or is a relic of tradition. Doctors also tend to herd together and seek protection of authority from facing responsibility for working out diagnosis and treatment suited to their particular patient. Then there is the extremely limited experience in science they get if they did not go into research full time. The FDA is a simpleton and FDA drug tests have little relationship to what is needed to know how to use them. The rule book says the drug needs to improve the outcome vs. a placebo or standard of care with a high degree of certainty. Which patients it is used on in the trial can be entirely irrelevant to the known mechanism of it's function. They are looking to draw a line between a disease and the meds to create a line in a lookup table. It has little to do with science, but that it is a trial and uses the simplest scientific method. 

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4 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

What will his election cap say this time?  Will it be made in China or India?

His campaign office must be going insane - how do you win?

#Legacy of failure

Dead, broke, both, international embarrassment, economic collapse, China wins BIG (they are going to eat your lunch)

JACKHOLE

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(edited)

Jon N.

NYC was very slow to stop allowing international travel into the city. It flaunted suggestions until it was too late. It is the densest population in the country. They were also unprepared for any type of epidemic due to poor planning.

You did not supply any reference to WHEN the hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was actually started on any patients or the results. 

Apparently NYC and the metropolitan area are at or near the apex of the epidemic thanks to a lot of federal help and using the treatment recommended by President Trump and his team. It is also now apparent that the mass dependence on ventilators is not essential and may even be counterproductive. Simple oxygen through a nasal cannula may be preferable in many cases. 

What are the signs that we’re reaching the peak?

There are several. In New York City, the number of hospitalizations has been relatively flat for more than a week. The daily death toll has dropped in recent days after reaching 262 deaths on March 31, according to the Department of Health. “There are signs we are hitting a plateau,” Mark Levine, who heads the council’s Committee on Health, said on Twitter on Monday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/nyregion/coronavirus-new-york-peak.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Edited by ronwagn
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(edited)

2 hours ago, 0R0 said:

But the profession still suffers from myopia and group think and are unwilling to be the first to do anything. The standard of care in many instances is composed entirely of dogma and has little, or misinterpreted science behind it, or is a relic of tradition. Doctors also tend to herd together and seek protection of authority from facing responsibility for working out diagnosis and treatment suited to their particular patient. Then there is the extremely limited experience in science they get if they did not go into research full time. The FDA is a simpleton and FDA drug tests have little relationship to what is needed to know how to use them. The rule book says the drug needs to improve the outcome vs. a placebo or standard of care with a high degree of certainty. Which patients it is used on in the trial can be entirely irrelevant to the known mechanism of it's function. They are looking to draw a line between a disease and the meds to create a line in a lookup table. It has little to do with science, but that it is a trial and uses the simplest scientific method. 

Most physicians and engineers are not scientists - they apply science to try and solve problems. Too busy doing stuff to do basic research that more often then not leads to dead ends.

Both professions are legally required to not just "try stuff"

Edited by Enthalpic
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4 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Most physicians and engineers are not scientists - they apply science to try and solve problems. Too busy doing stuff to do basic research that more often then not leads to dead ends.

Both professions are legally required to not just "try stuff"

And scientists are generally engineers without opposable thumbs, who have no idea if all of their solutions/ideas (those they can agree on. See Climate Change) are even possible to pursue/build in the real world.

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1 minute ago, Douglas Buckland said:

And scientists are generally engineers without opposable thumbs, who have no idea if all of their solutions/ideas (those they can agree on. See Climate Change) are even possible to pursue/build in the real world.

I said most of the hypotheses are dead end bullshit - part of the method we work with.

Accept the Null. Boring paper to publish but it expands knowledge.

"I spent 6 years and $1,400,000 to demonstrate this idea sucks. Please increase my research groups' funding level."

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9 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

I said most of the hypotheses are dead end bullshit - part of the method we work with.

Accept the Null. Boring paper to publish but it expands knowledge.

"I spent 6 years and $1,400,000 to demonstrate this idea sucks. Please increase my research groups' funding level."

So let’s say that by spending $1.4 million in 6 years to “demonstrate this idea sucks” prevents people or firms from pumping billions into an unworkable technology in the future. Is that money well spent?

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48 minutes ago, Enthalpic said:

Most physicians and engineers are not scientists - they apply science to try and solve problems. Too busy doing stuff to do basic research that more often then not leads to dead ends.

Both professions are legally required to not just "try stuff"

That reminds me of counseling techniques which are really theoretical and value driven. Basically the only counseling which seems really effective is the one that people really don't want to hear even though they could just read it in a book. That IMHO is Reality Therapy by Glasser or Rational Emotive Therapy of Albert Ellis. 

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39 minutes ago, Douglas Buckland said:

So let’s say that by spending $1.4 million in 6 years to “demonstrate this idea sucks” prevents people or firms from pumping billions into an unworkable technology in the future. Is that money well spent?

Yes

Edited by Enthalpic

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36 minutes ago, Jon N said:

If Hydroxychloroquine statistically is working, then why is New York having the highest deaths per 100k people

Since its been given to every New York patient.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/04/06/navarro_virtually_every_covid-19_patient_in_new_york_is_given_hydroxychloroquine.html

And every day, the death rate for New York continues to increase.

2020-04-07_12-25.png.e179d5e3e8e40a81b0dab19ddcf74944.png

 

First of all, the HCQ/Z combo does not cure the disease, it kills the virus and protects your hemoglobin from further attack by whatever virus still remains. So if you give it to someone who's lungs are too damaged already that they are on a ventilator then you will have the patient die anyway, but with no virus left in his system. The bulk of critical care patients on ventilators will probably not get a benefit. Earlier stage patients can. azithromycin acts on the infected cell to block viral  RNA replication. HCQ also lowers pH so will slow viral growth that way.  Add Zinc and an additional anti inflammatory targeting the cytokine storm that is suspected to be the main cause of deterioration. 

In mild cases Dr. Raoult showed that it removes the virus within 5 days. 10 days for the more serious cases. We had only 1000 patients in the NY State trial starting the prior Friday. It had an effect by Sunday with 200 fewer deaths, but the overwhelming number of late stage patients dying swamped it from the aggregate stats the following day. The HCQ stock provided to NYC will only save serious and mildly ill patients. For those too far gone, it is not enough.

This is only day 3 since the National Stockpile drugs arrived at NY area hospitals  if I have the date progression right, then the death rate would only fall substantially in a week from Friday as those already on ventilators die and are not replaced by more severe cases going on ventilators and dying. 

We also have a decline in the number of cases coming in. And in hospitalizations, with no growth of net hospitalizations, which we should expect from the fever temperature  stats that would lead us to expect a drop in symptomatic people showing up for tests or treatment. The average time for dyspnea to show up is 12-14 days from the onset of fever, which is when most show up for testing or treatment. So for NYC that average should peak 12 -14 days after the decline in fever readings starts. Which is 3.30-31, and the level should drop to 1/2 by Apr 10-12 or so.

If people are broadly treated then they will not show up for treatment at the hospitals and the peak in new cases will occur earlier, and the drop to 1/2 the new case level will occur before our expected dates of Apr. 10-12. Many doctors in outpatient practice in NY have been using this HCQ Z combo, or for older patients with cardio problems with Doxycycline instead of Z. A long Island infectious disease Dr. with nursing home patients with 48 or so super high risk patients had saved 80% of his patients with HCQ/D. They recovered without hospitalization. 

Daily deaths average 20 days from the onset of fever so should peak April 6. And fall by 1/2 by Apr 17. 

If the peak in deaths is any sooner than Apr 6, then something is aiding the patients. If the fall to half the daily death rate off the peak is earlier than Apr. 17 then we have attenuated deaths and saved patients with the new interventions.  We are at day 10 for the NY State trial of 1k patients (of 132k patients) and at day 3 or 4 for the broader 4000 course treatments sent from the National Stockpile. 

image.png.abc8c7cfd5a947efcf60c6c2504d834e.png

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(edited)

18 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

First of all, the HCQ/Z combo does not cure the disease, it kills the virus and protects your hemoglobin from further attack by whatever virus still remains. So if you give it to someone who's lungs are too damaged already that they are on a ventilator then you will have the patient die anyway, but with no virus left in his system. The bulk of critical care patients on ventilators will probably not get a benefit. Earlier stage patients can. azithromycin acts on the infected cell to block viral  RNA replication. HCQ also lowers pH so will slow viral growth that way.  Add Zinc and an additional anti inflammatory targeting the cytokine storm that is suspected to be the main cause of deterioration. 

In mild cases Dr. Raoult showed that it removes the virus within 5 days. 10 days for the more serious cases. We had only 1000 patients in the NY State trial starting the prior Friday. It had an effect by Sunday with 200 fewer deaths, but the overwhelming number of late stage patients dying swamped it from the aggregate stats the following day. The HCQ stock provided to NYC will only save serious and mildly ill patients. For those too far gone, it is not enough.

This is only day 3 since the National Stockpile drugs arrived at NY area hospitals  if I have the date progression right, then the death rate would only fall substantially in a week from Friday as those already on ventilators die and are not replaced by more severe cases going on ventilators and dying. 

We also have a decline in the number of cases coming in. And in hospitalizations, with no growth of net hospitalizations, which we should expect from the fever temperature  stats that would lead us to expect a drop in symptomatic people showing up for tests or treatment. The average time for dyspnea to show up is 12-14 days from the onset of fever, which is when most show up for testing or treatment. So for NYC that average should peak 12 -14 days after the decline in fever readings starts. Which is 3.30-31, and the level should drop to 1/2 by Apr 10-12 or so.

If people are broadly treated then they will not show up for treatment at the hospitals and the peak in new cases will occur earlier, and the drop to 1/2 the new case level will occur before our expected dates of Apr. 10-12. Many doctors in outpatient practice in NY have been using this HCQ Z combo, or for older patients with cardio problems with Doxycycline instead of Z. A long Island infectious disease Dr. with nursing home patients with 48 or so super high risk patients had saved 80% of his patients with HCQ/D. They recovered without hospitalization. 

Daily deaths average 20 days from the onset of fever so should peak April 6. And fall by 1/2 by Apr 17. 

If the peak in deaths is any sooner than Apr 6, then something is aiding the patients. If the fall to half the daily death rate off the peak is earlier than Apr. 17 then we have attenuated deaths and saved patients with the new interventions.  We are at day 10 for the NY State trial of 1k patients (of 132k patients) and at day 3 or 4 for the broader 4000 course treatments sent from the National Stockpile. 

image.png.abc8c7cfd5a947efcf60c6c2504d834e.png

I said to use Zn and referenced its demonstrated antiviral activity weeks ago

Edited by Enthalpic

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1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

That reminds me of counseling techniques which are really theoretical and value driven. Basically the only counseling which seems really effective is the one that people really don't want to hear even though they could just read it in a book. That IMHO is Reality Therapy by Glasser or Rational Emotive Therapy of Albert Ellis. 

Ever read Power of Now(.E. Tolle)?  Very poorly written but he has some neat ideas.  Guy really needs to take an English class or seven..

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