BL

Understand, the main objective of "Flattening the Curve" was to avoid overwhelming our hospitals. Not necessarily eliminate Covid in a few weeks or months.

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18 hours ago, Geoff Guenther said:

Funny, I've only come across the flip side - if we let the virus run rampant it will be more damaging to the economy than shutting it down short term. A destroyed economy will kill more people than the virus. but it's that a virus could destroy the economy than that shutting down the economy for two months would.

So yes, there are two big questions to answer: when do we reopen, and what measures need to be in place.

To your other point: yes, the virus will mutate, however it is mutating more slowly than your typical flu virus. It's still entirely possible that a single vaccine will be effective against all mutations.

I don't know how long the US economy will be shut down (meaning, stay-at-home restrictions) but I suspect it will be longer than two months. New York City is the closest we got -- in the USA -- to seeing patients lined up dying in hallways. We may not see that because state and local government acted responsibly and prevented the exponential explosion that would have led to patients dying in the hallways of US hospitals. 

The good thing with regard to stay-at-home orders is that it reduces social fear of the virus. It's a lot easier for the economy to recover when the population isn't panicking. For that reason, I think the East/West Pact governors are right to emphasize health measures (PPE, testing, quarantine/isolation of infected) rather than re-open dates. Cuomo said we're in the new normal. That means we need to adapt our economy to the new normal: e.g. grocery shopping online with curb-side pickup or delivery; learn how to cook; learn how to manage employees remotely; move high-school/college education online; etc. We have no choice but to adapt and innovate because vaccines are 12 to 18 months away. 

I think we'll get a vaccine, but we reduce our chances of getting a vaccine if we were to take a "let it run wild" approach. The Johns Hopkins Coronavirus map says we currently have a total of 2 million global confirmed infections at present. Imagine if we followed the advice of the morons and allowed that to rise to 100+ million, or the 1+ billion H1N1 infected. If you want a vaccine you also want to keep the number of infected as low as possible. 

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19 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

The second I read the word "consensus" I know the BS is going to be knee deep, at least. 

The last non liberal economist is dead, so any "consensus" is coming from the mutual admiration society who produced a certain New York Times editorialist who has never been right. You'd think a guy like that would be hiding in a basement instead of continuing to publish his claptrap. But yeah, credentials over substance because appeal to authority is so compelling

You should learn what consensus means: the common opinion of subject matter experts. Maybe you have expertise in a subject and someone from outside your area of expertise pops their head in to tell you they know better than you. I'm sure you'd be totally cool with that, right? 

To the extent that subject matter experts are in agreement regarding COVID19 and economic policy, the consensus is to utilize stay-at-home/lockdown policies to reduce the infection rates. 

I mean, people are going to bleat on about their disdain for expertise, I get it. Personally, I like to pay attention to people with expertise when they share that expertise, like these economists were nice enough to do: http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-crisis/

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By the way, everyone needs to understand just how lopsided the consensus is among those with subject matter experience in macroeconomics. It is nearly unanimous. Some SMEs don't offer an opinion, but no one is offering a dissenting opinion, which is extremely uncommon in economics. 

http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-crisis/

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19 hours ago, 0R0 said:

If the antibodies are not there, then neither is the possibility of a vaccine, and we should just let the disease roll through as soon as viable treatments are available, as they are now. 

Incorrect. There are no treatments. Where do you get your information, are you that guy who watches Sean Hannity and nods your head in agreement without ever fact checking him?  

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19 hours ago, BLA said:

Brad

The virus has mutated 3 times ?  Is this documented somewhere ?   Thanks.

Yes, but I wanted to emphasize *at least* three times. Also, mutation doesn't imply more deadly. It's possible mutations could lead to less dangerous outcomes. However, banking on less deadly mutations is banking on blind risk. Also, this isn't the only reason to follow stay-at-home policies to prevent larger infection rates. 

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global

https://academic.oup.com/nsr/article/doi/10.1093/nsr/nwaa036/5775463

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5 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

I don't know how long the US economy will be shut down (meaning, stay-at-home restrictions) but I suspect it will be longer than two months. New York City is the closest we got -- in the USA -- to seeing patients lined up dying in hallways. We may not see that because state and local government acted responsibly and prevented the exponential explosion that would have led to patients dying in the hallways of US hospitals. 

The good thing with regard to stay-at-home orders is that it reduces social fear of the virus. It's a lot easier for the economy to recover when the population isn't panicking. For that reason, I think the East/West Pact governors are right to emphasize health measures (PPE, testing, quarantine/isolation of infected) rather than re-open dates. Cuomo said we're in the new normal. That means we need to adapt our economy to the new normal: e.g. grocery shopping online with curb-side pickup or delivery; learn how to cook; learn how to manage employees remotely; move high-school/college education online; etc. We have no choice but to adapt and innovate because vaccines are 12 to 18 months away. 

I think we'll get a vaccine, but we reduce our chances of getting a vaccine if we were to take a "let it run wild" approach. The Johns Hopkins Coronavirus map says we currently have a total of 2 million global confirmed infections at present. Imagine if we followed the advice of the morons and allowed that to rise to 100+ million, or the 1+ billion H1N1 infected. If you want a vaccine you also want to keep the number of infected as low as possible. 

So now we are going to stay closed until there is a vaccine that may never materialize ? No.

First what's your obsession with Sean Hannity.  How long has he been banging around in your head.  Let it go.  It's not healthy. 

Back to lock down,:

I can hear them now that the hospital's did not break and the cases and deaths were nowhere near the forcast models  predicted .  .  .  

 The next excuse to keep the country on lock down will be "second wave". 

I think the country will start to open in May.  Those states that refused will start to see protests when their citizens see the neighboring state enjoying a return to normal.  

I think it has to be a personal decision or a business owners decision.  We will have to be ready for a second wave if needed.

We should provide special assistance to those over 60 years old that decide on self quarantine.  The elderly should stay quarantined. 

The quick, easy and inexpensive saliva test being manufactured will be key. 

 

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1 hour ago, BradleyPNW said:

Incorrect. There are no treatments. Where do you get your information, are you that guy who watches Sean Hannity and nods your head in agreement without ever fact checking him?  

I go look at the original science and see the data.

Where no treatments for the virus make a difference is when you are at the late stage of the disease. At early stage treatment, the record is good for Gilead's drug, the HIV antivirals and hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin or doxycyclin for heart arrhythmia patients. HCQ/Z does reduce the numbers of hospitalizations and deaths compared to untreated patients. Clinical experience is building up rapidly and treating physicians post very low hospitalization and death rates of appx 1/10th to 1/5th relative to untreated patients. A nurse study  is already showing no disease in the treated group while symptomatic cases have appeared in the untreated control group. Study is ongoing. 

The drug companies are busy suppressing information on unpatented products they can't make money from. 

I suggest you drop your sources as they are being obfuscated by unwillingness to accept facts for the simple reason that Trump said them.

The Democratic party has become entirely deranged. The mainstream media that surround them and support their positions and cause have stopped practicing journalism. Get information for yourself.

 

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4 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

I think we'll get a vaccine, but we reduce our chances of getting a vaccine if we were to take a "let it run wild" approach. The Johns Hopkins Coronavirus map says we currently have a total of 2 million global confirmed infections at present. Imagine if we followed the advice of the morons and allowed that to rise to 100+ million, or the 1+ billion H1N1 infected. If you want a vaccine you also want to keep the number of infected as low as possible. 

What makes you think that this SARS virus is any more susceptible than its predecessor to a useful vaccine? The young only develop minimal antibodies and rely on T cell and other methods to fight the virus successfully. 

The news is not about a myriad likely candidates, but about a myriad untested vaccine approaches among them a traditional vaccine - which is unlikely to work as its predecessors haven't. The RNA vaccine is untried in humans till now. Some of the other protein vaccines are both less probable and more dangerous. We are banking on luck, not probability. Granted enough attempts something will stick - more likely in the second or third generation than this set of initial attempts. Hopefully we get lucky. I am hoping the Moderna  RNA vaccine works right off the bat. It does in small animal studies.

Again, you are relying on mainstream media and their attempt to solicit advertising and PR money from pharma and vaccine makers. They do not tell you facts.  

 

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2 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

By the way, everyone needs to understand just how lopsided the consensus is among those with subject matter experience in macroeconomics. It is nearly unanimous. Some SMEs don't offer an opinion, but no one is offering a dissenting opinion, which is extremely uncommon in economics. 

http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-crisis/

Economist survey consensus is a determinant of what does not happen. When the evidence is there for a trend, then the economic system is already bent that way and is ready to snap the other way. as the well recognized trend is exhausted. 

Economist consensus should never inform your thinking. Most of them have yet to call an economic turn before it happened. 

 

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2 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

I mean, people are going to bleat on about their disdain for expertise, I get it. Personally, I like to pay attention to people with expertise when they share that expertise, like these economists were nice enough to do: http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-crisis/

It is demonstrated consistent failure of the profession as it has become established. 

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2 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

The good thing with regard to stay-at-home orders is that it reduces social fear of the virus. It's a lot easier for the economy to recover when the population isn't panicking. For that reason, I think the East/West Pact governors are right to emphasize health measures (PPE, testing, quarantine/isolation of infected) rather than re-open dates. Cuomo said we're in the new normal. That means we need to adapt our economy to the new normal: e.g. grocery shopping online with curb-side pickup or delivery; learn how to cook; learn how to manage employees remotely; move high-school/college education online; etc. We have no choice but to adapt and innovate because vaccines are 12 to 18 months away. 

The economy can open as soon as next week for the vast bulk of the country. Only dense metro areas need to remain closed another two weeks - perhaps 3. R0 is highly dependent on population density and I think the main mode of transmission is public transport, particularly at rush hour. There has to be a strongly enforced policy of PPE for subways and buses. No mask no gloves no trip. Give them away at the stations or by the bus driver when they are available. Sanitize surfaces as close to single use as possible. Particularly the high contact surfaces like poles. 

None of what you are mentioning is at all necessary. The danger to the younger people: of children and their parents is less than that of the flu. Teens and university students can't continue STEM education outside biology chemistry physics and advanced labs.They have to be back in school for those. Everything else can continue online. 

Only the ill need to restrain even low grade exposure, while the infected need support to remain at home till they are not infectious. 

You are not thinking in terms of the price tags and destruction of economic activity associated with each of your suggestions. 

We need a minor adaptation of behavior. Not an "adaptation of the economy". Your bombastic stance on imposing your unfounded opinions is worthy of any derogatory one could think up.

Florida did not have the same kind of propagation that NYC had during spring break's massive introduction of the virus to Florida. Population density increases the rate of transmission NY is 70k/sqare mile. Boroughs are 20-40k/sqm. Miami is 2k/sqm. We can see 

image.png.383a24cacb7d610d91e156255ecdfa6c.pngimage.png.f69a8fc246886f7aa1553b8259548c8c.png

This resulted in a peaking of new daily cases appx 2-3 weeks later

In NYC it was at 14k/day with 12K cases per million, results were dramatic and hospitals were overwhelmed for a week The State figures dilute the impact of NYC density where it is 71 k /square mile in NY county and 20-40k/sqm in the boroughs. The main transmission mechanism is rush hour subway traffic and buses. So that boroughs residents have a higher prevalence of confirmed infections than do Manhattan residents. By comparison, Miami is 2k/sqm, Cincinnati is 3.8 k/sqm where 300k people live, but 0.44 k/sqm for the metro area where over 2 million people live. .  

image.png.f4eece125442e76becb0011538ed76eb.png

On the other hand Florida, once rid of the spring breakers that brought CV19 to spread rapidly, had a slow propagation of the disease in the general population. With 2k/sqm population density, the propargation of the disease was far less penetrating. The peak was 1.3k/day and the number of cases per million was 1.1k vs. 12k for NY. That means that R0 was an order of magnitude lower in FL than it was in NYC. 

image.png.26d5277f9046a18f5628f43ce6c23030.png

 

We can see that things observed in NYC have no bearing on the vast sprawling majority of the country and do not come close to representing what is possible for this pandemic in the bulk of the country. 

We can see in Cincinnatti that the propagation of the virus was flatter, slower, and (without spring breakers from NY Philly and Boston) 

image.png.3a487d652b3a44624ed44d2876891945.png

At this point there is barely anyone left there with a cold and new cases are single digit on some days for a metro area of 2 mil. Ohio measured case rate is 0.7k per mil. 1/20th that of NY. 1/50th of NYC (estimate). 

image.png.79fe3b13917a6dad87649529729c5612.png

You can already open up most of the country with minimal PPE and sanitation requirements and refrain from large congregations. The later you open, the larger the maximum congregation size you can have with low risk of a local outbreak. Teens and college students should continue to learn from home and come in for laboratory work at school. 

It is important to look into the mechanism by which there were breakouts in Amazon warehouses and meat packing plants. They should be easy to rectify. With warmer clothing and mask and improved sanitation for the meat packers and more thorough and frequent cleanup at Amazon. 

If we go by your criteria, NY may not open for more than a month or two in summer. 

I would argue that NYC is largely infected and is close to herd immunity. The next outbreak will likely bring the Metro area to actual herd immunity.  The multiple strain argument is false. The immunity can cross strains as antibodies are not only to just one specific protein but to various spike structures and proximate structures. 

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4 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

You should learn what consensus means: the common opinion of subject matter experts. Maybe you have expertise in a subject and someone from outside your area of expertise pops their head in to tell you they know better than you. I'm sure you'd be totally cool with that, right? 

To the extent that subject matter experts are in agreement regarding COVID19 and economic policy, the consensus is to utilize stay-at-home/lockdown policies to reduce the infection rates. 

I mean, people are going to bleat on about their disdain for expertise, I get it. Personally, I like to pay attention to people with expertise when they share that expertise, like these economists were nice enough to do: http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-crisis/

Dude, I know all about it. Here's the funny thing, those macroeconomics folks have been 100% certain about things in the past, while coincidentally being 100% wrong. Being an "SME" in economics is only slightly better than being an SME in entrails reading. The entire "profession" is a joke. They call it the dismal science for a good reason. Remember "Long Term Capital Management"? All economists, including Nobel Prize winners. What happened there? Oh yeah, complete and utter disaster. 

But keep riding your high horse there, dude. Always fun to watch the dudes get bucked off Lady bell, the easiest horse in the paddock. 

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53 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

Your bombastic stance on imposing your unfounded opinions is worthy of any derogatory one could think up.

 

Lol funny this

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6 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

Yes, but I wanted to emphasize *at least* three times. Also, mutation doesn't imply more deadly. It's possible mutations could lead to less dangerous outcomes. However, banking on less deadly mutations is banking on blind risk. Also, this isn't the only reason to follow stay-at-home policies to prevent larger infection rates. 

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global

https://academic.oup.com/nsr/article/doi/10.1093/nsr/nwaa036/5775463

There will be many dangerous outcomes.

If you actually read the article, there are 103 different SARS COV 2 genomes extracted mostly from Wuhan. There will be far more of them collected over the next few months.

This shows the irrelevance of your fear as it relates to the scientific content you ascribe it to. 

The antibodies and antigens respond to particular proteins and glycoprotein structures. You will have more than one type of antibody, probably several.  The fact of the mutation of one or several does not mean all of your antibodies will not work on the particular virus variant you meet. This is one of the reasons we have not moved to synthetic vaccines so readily. We want the varied responses in antibody diversity to the virus so they could offer some cross strain resistance. A weakness of Moderna's RNA vaccine is that it only produces copies of the S spike protein in your body, thus only antibodies to that, so if a different strain with a sufficiently different S spike protein comes out, then the vaccine would be useless. 

Every argument you are making about herd immunity also applies to a vaccine. 

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1 hour ago, 0R0 said:

There will be many dangerous outcomes.

If you actually read the article, there are 103 different SARS COV 2 genomes extracted mostly from Wuhan. There will be far more of them collected over the next few months.

This shows the irrelevance of your fear as it relates to the scientific content you ascribe it to. 

The antibodies and antigens respond to particular proteins and glycoprotein structures. You will have more than one type of antibody, probably several.  The fact of the mutation of one or several does not mean all of your antibodies will not work on the particular virus variant you meet. This is one of the reasons we have not moved to synthetic vaccines so readily. We want the varied responses in antibody diversity to the virus so they could offer some cross strain resistance. A weakness of Moderna's RNA vaccine is that it only produces copies of the S spike protein in your body, thus only antibodies to that, so if a different strain with a sufficiently different S spike protein comes out, then the vaccine would be useless. 

Every argument you are making about herd immunity also applies to a vaccine. 

Been reading a lot of threads all over the place on covid 19 on Oilprice.  Great information from so many of you and impressed with all the knowledge.   Gerry Maddox, ORO, WRS, Ronwagn, BLA, Jan Van Eck, Rob Kramer and Tom Kirkman.  Been landman over 40 years.  Worked in every county seat from ND, MT, SD, WY, CO, UT, NE, KS, NM, in virtually all of the oil and gas producing counties.  The covid 19 shutdown throughout the country is doing more damage than any of us could possible predicted.  Every landman I know is out of work except for a few.  The shut down has got to end now...not in two weeks or couple months.  Doing more damage and has to stop now.  My daughter is working at a day care center here in Metro Denver that's open cause of doctors children being taken care of for obvious reasons for them to work.  Not one of her co-workers has shown signs of the virus even through it's obvious they all have been infected.  My daughter lives with me.   I'm over 60 have had some minor colds but feel fine.  The Safeway down the block has all the same employees working and showing no sign of infection although all have been exposed surely.  Another Safeway within 2 miles, which my daughter worked at several years ago, also are working with no sign of the virus.  She spoke with them on why they are not worried..said everyone has probably been infected and none are worried.  Can someone tell me how that is possible when we are in hot spot?  with thousand of people going through these two food stores weekly?   and not one of the employees are worried?  Also, airports will open when all are tested going through?  Just my 2 bits. 

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2 minutes ago, LANDMAN X said:

Been reading a lot of threads all over the place on covid 19 on Oilprice.  Great information from so many of you and impressed with all the knowledge.   Gerry Maddox, ORO, WRS, Ronwagn, BLA, Jan Van Eck, Rob Kramer and Tom Kirkman.  Been landman over 40 years.  Worked in every county seat from ND, MT, SD, WY, CO, UT, NE, KS, NM, in virtually all of the oil and gas producing counties.  The covid 19 shutdown throughout the country is doing more damage than any of us could possible predicted.  Every landman I know is out of work except for a few.  The shut down has got to end now...not in two weeks or couple months.  Doing more damage and has to stop now.  My daughter is working at a day care center here in Metro Denver that's open cause of doctors children being taken care of for obvious reasons for them to work.  Not one of her co-workers has shown signs of the virus even through it's obvious they all have been infected.  My daughter lives with me.   I'm over 60 have had some minor colds but feel fine.  The Safeway down the block has all the same employees working and showing no sign of infection although all have been exposed surely.  Another Safeway within 2 miles, which my daughter worked at several years ago, also are working with no sign of the virus.  She spoke with them on why they are not worried..said everyone has probably been infected and none are worried.  Can someone tell me how that is possible when we are in hot spot?  with thousand of people going through these two food stores weekly?   and not one of the employees are worried?  Also, airports will open when all are tested going through?  Just my 2 bits. 

Because it is extremely contagious and not very deadly. It all depends on how ill you are and what your initial load of the virus was. A subway rider doing rush hour will get a face full of it from a cough. That would get him started on a high load of virus which may harm him despite being in rude health. On the other hand, you may have gotten it from touching a toddler's hand and gotten a smidgen in the eye, two days later it made its way to your lung tissue by which time you have T cells out in force and a battalion of antibodies and you just get a minor cough and a touch of fever, though you were as old as the hills and expected this one to take you.. 

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Another great response ORO.  If it's not very deadly, why is nation shut down?  More people are going to lose there lives with shut down than the virus.  Why is that so hard to understand?  People aren't dying in the street as the 1918 Spanish flu?

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8 hours ago, BLA said:

So now we are going to stay closed until there is a vaccine that may never materialize ? No.

First what's your obsession with Sean Hannity.  How long has he been banging around in your head.  Let it go.  It's not healthy. 

Back to lock down,:

I can hear them now that the hospital's did not break and the cases and deaths were nowhere near the forcast models  predicted .  .  .  

 The next excuse to keep the country on lock down will be "second wave". 

I think the country will start to open in May.  Those states that refused will start to see protests when their citizens see the neighboring state enjoying a return to normal.  

I think it has to be a personal decision or a business owners decision.  We will have to be ready for a second wave if needed.

We should provide special assistance to those over 60 years old that decide on self quarantine.  The elderly should stay quarantined. 

The quick, easy and inexpensive saliva test being manufactured will be key. 

 

I can only presume that those arguing for an extended lockdown do not live in small apartments and can at least go out in the backyard for some sun/exercise.

There is a quality of life issue here! Will you agree to a 2 month lockdown if you were not sure that you would have a job once it was lifted? If there was  a good chance you would shortly lose your home? If your children are essentially held back a year in school?

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Douglas, another good response.  Hope they listen to you..Been reading you throughout this site   Have great insites...

 

  

 

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54 minutes ago, LANDMAN X said:

More people are going to lose there lives with shut down than the virus.

You're right, and we have been in lockdown because the virus--like everything else--has been politicized. Mr. Trump's gut reaction was to let the thing run its course . . . . and that would have been the best mode of action. He would have been condemned, called a murderer, impeached again, and he took the only road still open. He is making another good move by letting the governors decide on a state by state basis when to reopen each state for business--it's not on his shoulders. Business-friendly states--Texas, Montana, Wyoming, ND, Arizona, Oklahoma--are going to reopen soon. I don't personally think NY, NJ or Mass will open until June. This virus is a tragedy for the world. Let us never forget that it came out of the virus incubator of China. They need to be isolated from the world.

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In a few months, we will no longer need a vaccine.
All of us will either have survived the virus, or be dead, or be protected by herd immunity.
The "quarantine" has created a false sense of security.
Grocery stores are still open.  Public transportation still runs.

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5 hours ago, LANDMAN X said:

If it's not very deadly, why is nation shut down?  More people are going to lose there lives with shut down than the virus.  Why is that so hard to understand?  People aren't dying in the street as the 1918 Spanish flu?

Yep, bang on observation.  

Pay attention to how many elected politicians and elected local officials use this lockdown panic as an excuse to junk the Bill of Rights, shred the U.S. Constitution, and become full blown tyrannical dictators.  Hopefully they will not get re-elected.  Over here in Michigan, the pushback against the local governor has already started.

Nowhere near the projected 2.2 million dead in the U.S., as hysterically shoved down our throats initially.

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5 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

I can only presume that those arguing for an extended lockdown do not live in small apartments and can at least go out in the backyard for some sun/exercise.

There is a quality of life issue here! Will you agree to a 2 month lockdown if you were not sure that you would have a job once it was lifted? If there was  a good chance you would shortly lose your home? If your children are essentially held back a year in school?

New York City is going to be toast.  Mayors in Democrat controlled sanctuary cities will be on economic life support, while demanding the Federal Government give them free bailout money for keeping their cities on extended lockdown.  Sreencap my comment here, and throw it back at me in the fall, if you feel so inclined.  (New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, San Diego, San Francisco, Atlanta, Detroit, etc.)

 

Mayor deBlasio Says New York City Will Not Reopen Until July or August AT THE EARLIEST!

New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio joined Bill Hemmer today on FOX News Channel.

The mayor told Hemmer he does not expect New York City to open until July or August.

March-April-May-June
There will be nothing left in the city in July.  ...

... 

NYC Mayor Deblasio tells Bill Hemmer that the city will start to reopen in July or August at the earliest.

— Joe Concha (@JoeConchaTV) April 16, 2020

Mayor de Blasio already announced schools will be closed for the rest of the year.

JUST IN: New York City public schools will remain closed for the remainder of this school year, Mayor de Blasio announces https://t.co/nS9quqsZRZ pic.twitter.com/nTmcz52Bj6

— CBS News (@CBSNews) April 11, 2020

And to think it wasn’t that long ago that Bill de Blasio was virtue-signalling and downplaying the virus.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

New York City is going to be toast.  Mayors in Democrat controlled sanctuary cities will be on economic life support, while demanding the Federal Government give them free bailout money for keeping their cities on extended lockdown.  Sreencap my comment here, and throw it back at me in the fall, if you feel so inclined.  (New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, San Diego, San Francisco, Atlanta, Detroit, etc.)

 

They had already run their states and cities into financial ruin before this hit.  Now they are driving home all of their pet projects at social order and there is no money to support it, not even from forced high corporate and individual tax receipts.  You are spot on that they will be demanding that the Federal Government (read taxpayers of the ENTIRE nation) bail them out so they can declare victory (yes, they will).  And they will scream that everything that is wrong with their states and cities is Donald J. Trump's fault, along with all of the idiots (read you and me) who support him.  Well boys and girls, let's not let them get away with it without a fight.

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