A government-funded analysis found hydroxychloroquine ineffective for COVID-19, increases risk of death

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

1 minute ago, surrept33 said:

Keep in mind that the latest retrospective study from China showed good results for HCQ for late state COVID patients (others have not): https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/05/04/hydroxychloroquine-update-may-4

 

Watch the video above your comment.

[surrept33 + 609]

1 hour ago, Dan Warnick said:

Watch the video above your comment.

Just watched it. I'd view her claims with suspicion. She got fired after this paper (and then was arrested because some of allegations she took property owned by the lab after she was terminated): https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/chi-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-paper-10032011-story.html

Many other studies were done to try to confirm the 2009 study, but didn't find much evidence. Eventually Nature retracted it after one of the coauthors found evidence that some of the tests had been contaminated (and it looks like some of the figures were copy pasted in other presentations Mikovits had done

More here:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/chasing-the-shadow-virus-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-and-xmrv

and here: https://retractionwatch.com/2020/05/06/who-is-judy-mikovits/

I don't think Mikovits had ever mentioned Fauci as the reason for her termination until Covid started, and Fauci's time in the limelight became much larger. She also had not said anything about coronaviruses.

Edited May 6, 2020 by surrept33

[Jim Profit + 46]

1 hour ago, surrept33 said:

Keep in mind that the latest retrospective study from China showed good results for HCQ for late state COVID patients (others have not): https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/05/04/hydroxychloroquine-update-may-4

 

This study is suspect, if only because that when it was registered it was due to evaluate some traditional chinese medecine, no mention of HCQ.. and now tada ! first time we see HCQ effective for very sick patients..

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

To be or not to be is the question...it seemed Turkey skipped the noble BS and got down to business....it seems they skipped the outrageous slings and arrows along the way.

https://www.ejmo.org/10.14744/ejmo.2020.12345/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/world/coronavirus-cases-news.html

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

On 5/5/2020 at 5:27 PM, Ward Smith said:

 

Pedantry isn't in as high a demand as you might think

Only the pedantic get any amusement from pedantry, and even that is one directional.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

10 hours ago, surrept33 said:

Just watched it. I'd view her claims with suspicion. She got fired after this paper (and then was arrested because some of allegations she took property owned by the lab after she was terminated): https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/chi-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-paper-10032011-story.html

Many other studies were done to try to confirm the 2009 study, but didn't find much evidence. Eventually Nature retracted it after one of the coauthors found evidence that some of the tests had been contaminated (and it looks like some of the figures were copy pasted in other presentations Mikovits had done

More here:

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/chasing-the-shadow-virus-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-and-xmrv

and here: https://retractionwatch.com/2020/05/06/who-is-judy-mikovits/

I don't think Mikovits had ever mentioned Fauci as the reason for her termination until Covid started, and Fauci's time in the limelight became much larger. She also had not said anything about coronaviruses.

To each their own, I guess.  Personally, I find the relative silence of the mainstream media an endorsement of her story.  The allegations against her reek of made up charges and planted evidence, IMHO.  Also, put her story together with the many doctors questioning virtually all advice on treatment regimes coming out of both the CDC and most certainly the WHO, and I don't think this is about her; I think it is about the money and global players.

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 5/5/2020 at 5:25 AM, 0R0 said:

It is proven as a cure for the virus. It isn't placebo controlled blind tested to cure the disease. Neither is Remdesivir. 

At the treatment doses suggested/used by Dr. Raoult, there is a prolonged history of use without heart events for rheumatic patients. 

The Turkish test at critical stage patients reduced mortality by half. All were having heart stress due to the disease. 

Only problem with HCQ is there not enough of it to go around. Global production nowhere near global demand?

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 5/5/2020 at 6:21 AM, Enthalpic said:

Holy crap, I just looked it up, the half-life of hydroxychloroquine is 32 - 50 days!  It would take forever to reach a steady state concentration.

Due to the aforementioned cardiac side effects a supermassive dose to quickly reach the therapeutic range is too risky.

Yes, 1000mg will kill you, up 500mg/day OK.

[Wombat + 1,028]

3 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

To each their own, I guess.  Personally, I find the relative silence of the mainstream media an endorsement of her story.  The allegations against her reek of made up charges and planted evidence, IMHO.  Also, put her story together with the many doctors questioning virtually all advice on treatment regimes coming out of both the CDC and most certainly the WHO, and I don't think this is about her; I think it is about the money and global players.

I think it was very stupid of Western governments to flip-flop on the use of masks, and suggest only N95 any good. Then we discover that any old fabric covering will reduce the spread, even if it not a great defence. Still stops the amount passed on by infected person. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

4 hours ago, Wombat said:

Yes, 1000mg will kill you, up 500mg/day OK.

The Brazil "study" (hit job) gave the patients (no doubt from the barrio) 600mg 3 times a day, when they were already at death's door. For lupus they give 1-200 mg per dose, 2 to three times a day. Who knows when the prophylaxis kicks in? 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

8 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

To each their own, I guess.  Personally, I find the relative silence of the mainstream media an endorsement of her story.  The allegations against her reek of made up charges and planted evidence, IMHO.  Also, put her story together with the many doctors questioning virtually all advice on treatment regimes coming out of both the CDC and most certainly the WHO, and I don't think this is about her; I think it is about the money and global players.

BINGO 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

4 hours ago, Wombat said:

I think it was very stupid of Western governments to flip-flop on the use of masks, and suggest only N95 any good. Then we discover that any old fabric covering will reduce the spread, even if it not a great defence. Still stops the amount passed on by infected person. 

This is hard for many, for some reason I can't fathom, to understand.  Governments govern.  Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings & Queens, Party Premiers and even Dictators are not the specialists of all things across all that they govern.  All of these leaders employ specialists for day to day governing issues, and when special issues arise they call in even more specialists to advise.

Who among us, any of us, upon hearing about this virus and learning that it was heading our way did not immediately think to ourselves "Maybe I should get some masks for me and the family before they all sell out.  This might be big."? 

And then the leaders went in front of the cameras and told us they had been consulting the specialists, the best specialists in the land, and those specialists said that masks may not be effective in this instance.  Not this time.  AND, big message time, they told us that this virus is definitely a killer, it might kill millions and millions of us before it's done.  And, oh by the way, there is no vaccine.  Sorry about that but "hopefully" we will find a cure and a vaccine. 

The media picked up and started reminding us of the worst plagues in history.  And who among us didn't think "Well then, I guess we're all screwed."?  Then they said we all had to isolate, which immediately made sense since there was no way to stop this thing.

And from that moment until this moment, there has been nothing but contradictory information spread from all sources, including, you know it, the specialists.  And we've got social media now, so every SOB and looney and "I play a doctor on TV" and government in the world held nothing back while telling us all these contradictory findings, possible cures, treatments and vaccines and that NOTHING actually worked.  Aargh! 

Then Doctors, who almost all of us have gone to and trusted for our care and the care of our loved ones, then started to tell us that they disagreed with the specialists.  Isn't it human nature to tend to want to trust the doctors who we have previously trusted with our care on a personal level as opposed to unknown specialists in government buildings?  I think so.  And so another LARGE seed of doubt was planted. 

And then the data started coming out.  Some of the data supposedly told the specialists one thing while the doctors said it told them something different.  And who among us didn't virtually throw our arms into the air and say "What the hell are we to believe?", and start to question whether the isolation was even worth it.  Was/is it worth the complete collapse of all that we know, when we can't even get a straight answer from those who are supposed to be in the know? 

Some of us will say we have no choice, put your trust in government and the specialists. 

Some of us will say to hell with them all, they obviously don't know what's what in this instance, but the data points in a positive enough direction for me, I'm going to get outside and fight for whatever may be left of my life and the life of my family.

So, here we are.  Arguing with each other about which one of us is right or wrong, when the greatest leaders and specialists and doctors in all the lands can't even agree with each other as to what's best.  How about everybody just take a deep breath and figure out what you think is best for you and your family, and then get on with it?  And stop bitching at the other guy who is doing the same thing for themselves and their families.  I don't believe for a second that any of us wants to hurt anybody else.  We're just trying our best to live.

When the governments and specialists and doctors finally figure out what to do, they can get together and tell us.

Please pass the tray and donate whatever you can.  I'll be here all week.

[0R0 + 6,251]

On 5/6/2020 at 6:06 PM, Jim Profit said:

This study is suspect, if only because that when it was registered it was due to evaluate some traditional chinese medecine, no mention of HCQ.. and now tada ! first time we see HCQ effective for very sick patients..

HCQ was the control group for the herbal remedy. As it had been used as a treatment, one of a great many. Since the herbals did nothing, they reported it as an HCQ study. 

[0R0 + 6,251]

6 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

This is hard for many, for some reason I can't fathom, to understand.  Governments govern.  Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings & Queens, Party Premiers and even Dictators are not the specialists of all things across all that they govern.  All of these leaders employ specialists for day to day governing issues, and when special issues arise they call in even more specialists to advise.

Who among us, any of us, upon hearing about this virus and learning that it was heading our way did not immediately think to ourselves "Maybe I should get some masks for me and the family before they all sell out.  This might be big."? 

And then the leaders went in front of the cameras and told us they had been consulting the specialists, the best specialists in the land, and those specialists said that masks may not be effective in this instance.  Not this time.  AND, big message time, they told us that this virus is definitely a killer, it might kill millions and millions of us before it's done.  And, oh by the way, there is no vaccine.  Sorry about that but "hopefully" we will find a cure and a vaccine. 

The media picked up and started reminding us of the worst plagues in history.  And who among us didn't think "Well then, I guess we're all screwed."?  Then they said we all had to isolate, which immediately made sense since there was no way to stop this thing.

And from that moment until this moment, there has been nothing but contradictory information spread from all sources, including, you know it, the specialists.  And we've got social media now, so every SOB and looney and "I play a doctor on TV" and government in the world held nothing back while telling us all these contradictory findings, possible cures, treatments and vaccines and that NOTHING actually worked.  Aargh! 

Then Doctors, who almost all of us have gone to and trusted for our care and the care of our loved ones, then started to tell us that they disagreed with the specialists.  Isn't it human nature to tend to want to trust the doctors who we have previously trusted with our care on a personal level as opposed to unknown specialists in government buildings?  I think so.  And so another LARGE seed of doubt was planted. 

And then the data started coming out.  Some of the data supposedly told the specialists one thing while the doctors said it told them something different.  And who among us didn't virtually throw our arms into the air and say "What the hell are we to believe?", and start to question whether the isolation was even worth it.  Was/is it worth the complete collapse of all that we know, when we can't even get a straight answer from those who are supposed to be in the know? 

Some of us will say we have no choice, put your trust in government and the specialists. 

Some of us will say to hell with them all, they obviously don't know what's what in this instance, but the data points in a positive enough direction for me, I'm going to get outside and fight for whatever may be left of my life and the life of my family.

So, here we are.  Arguing with each other about which one of us is right or wrong, when the greatest leaders and specialists and doctors in all the lands can't even agree with each other as to what's best.  How about everybody just take a deep breath and figure out what you think is best for you and your family, and then get on with it?  And stop bitching at the other guy who is doing the same thing for themselves and their families.  I don't believe for a second that any of us wants to hurt anybody else.  We're just trying our best to live.

When the governments and specialists and doctors finally figure out what to do, they can get together and tell us.

Please pass the tray and donate whatever you can.  I'll be here all week.

I personally disregarded the entire war of the experts. I thought the epidemiologists have primitive models they did use to produce the right shape of the curve but entirely wrong scale. That while temperature data were being collected by Kinsa and other bluetooth or wifi thermometers and reported showing the actual progression of the infections - which the experts ignored. I wasn't aware of these measurements till later in March when Kinsa set them up in an easy to navigate way. 

There are two main things I learned as the virus spread in the West. 1. R0 is not a characteristic of the virus but of the mode of transmission and its geographic distribution. Thus R0 is two different things in geographies heavy with the high transmission modes like stuffed elevators, crowded buses and subways, and air travel, and crowded classrooms and call centers etc.. As R0 was calculated by a statistical team at a large hedge fund, T0 was 1 to over 10 in different counties and the median was 5, not 2.3. For the commuters in NYC metro, it looked like 20 was possible, and perhaps 10 overall for the city. Outside of those exposed to these conditions or to a household member who is, R0 is far lower. 

So the most obvious thing is to wear a mask and gloves when you are in high density public areas. You don't need a HEPA level mask like an N95, Not because a T Shirt mask is so effective in preventing infection - it isn't, but in reducing the probability of it and most of all reducing the likely initial viral dose, thus reducing chances of a severe illness. 

If you are in a high risk group, then an N95 mask is definitely for you. If you are infected, then get a surgical type mask or fabric mask in order to block YOUR virus from spraying out of your face. And stay away from people if you can. 

If you are familiar with medicine and its regulatory establishment as it applies to such terminal and chronic diseases as Cancer, then you know that they fight tooth and nail against any treatment that (1) cures the disease. (2) unpatentable.

Because of the fee for service structure, the FDA will sabotage trials that stand to prevent a big money maker from making it to phase III, which makes the FDA enormous amounts of money. The NIH also obtains donations from drug companies with blockbusters, and from vaccine makers, Fauci administers such money. The WHO also obtains funds from drug companies. So I was and remain utterly skeptical of anything they say, meaning that their  criticism  points to a likely viable treatment - one they are trying hard to bury. Particularly, the cheapness and availability of the treatment would make it a target of "studies" intended to discredit it. Like applying it to people near death as in the OP on this thread. 

So I can say that if an "expert" gets to see the President or a high ranking department head or Senator of House committee member, it is entirely because a highly paid lobbyist put him there. Most likely someone from a pharmaceutical firm that is in the business of getting people killed by lack of cures since cures don't generate a long stream of dividends. 

Anyway, Moderna's vaccine looks promising. Antibody treatments are doing well. HCQ/Z is good enough when used early, to prevent permanent damage and reduce mortality and get rid of the virus 1-2 weeks earlier. Better than Remdesivir and with known dangers and side effects. Famotidine inital phase of its trial in New York's Northwell Health clinics should be completed today. We shall see if anything comes of it. Anecdotal evidence is positive as in a strong positive  response and relief of symptoms. 

The most useful thing you can do is open windows so that spaces are not recirculating aerosolized virus laden air. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Thanks, @0R0.

Your analysis throughout has been most welcome, cutting through the complexities involved and giving us your suggestions.  I'd say Oil Price, and especially those of us on the forum, are fortunate to have you.

[Jim Profit + 46]

11 hours ago, 0R0 said:

HCQ was the control group for the herbal remedy. As it had been used as a treatment, one of a great many. Since the herbals did nothing, they reported it as an HCQ study. 

Source: your imagination ?

[Tom Kirkman + 8,860]

2 minutes ago, Jim Profit said:

Source: your imagination ?

After reviewing your posting history here once again, it seems your primary interest on this forum is pushing the mainstream media hype about the China Flu, and just like the Mainstream Media disinformation campaign, minimizing any possibility of good news about the threat of the China Flu doomsdau scenario being wrong, and pooh poohing any chance of removing China Flu lockdowns.

In short, the standard MSM scare tactics.

CNN is more entertaining, in my opinion.  Your mileage may vary.

[Jim Profit + 46]

Aren't you curious what is 0R0's source ? You should be.
I am for a rational, fact-based dicussion.
Where you make verifiable claims and you provide source.
Otherwise on what criteria should we accept or reject those claims..
Gut feeling ? Compatibility with our pre-established beliefs ?

We can't just make arbitrary and expect others to accept them at face value.

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

15 hours ago, 0R0 said:

 

If you are familiar with medicine and its regulatory establishment as it applies to such terminal and chronic diseases as Cancer, then you know that they fight tooth and nail against any treatment that (1) cures the disease. (2) unpatentable.

 

Garbage.

Excision is highly effective and is done all the time.

Dermatologists save lives every time they cut off dirty moles.

Gastroenterologists find and treat colon cancers all the time.  Go get your colonoscopy if you have a family history.

Do a self breast exam or feel your partners titties.

Radiation therapy also helps.

 

Even if you are referring to chemo it saves lives.  98% of children with Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia go into remission within a couple weeks, 90% will be fully cured.

 

[0R0 + 6,251]

7 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

Garbage.

Excision is highly effective and is done all the time.

Dermatologists save lives every time they cut off dirty moles.

Gastroenterologists find and treat colon cancers all the time.  Go get your colonoscopy if you have a family history.

Do a self breast exam or feel your partners titties.

Radiation therapy also helps.

 

Even if you are referring to chemo it saves lives.  98% of children with Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia go into remission within a couple weeks, 90% will be fully cured.

 

Yes, there is much that had been and continues being done. I am referring to NEW drug treatments and processes from off label use to any unpatentable use of natural or synthetic materials. 

Surgery is always profitable to the medical  industry. Chemo and radiation are also very profitable. Both are products of the medical equipment and pharma companies. 

[SUZNV + 1,197]

Moved to more appropriate thread

Edited May 9, 2020 by SUZNV
wrong topic

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

22 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

https://www.facebook.com/inthenow/videos/240339903986417/?t=6

Here is partly why NY have a high number of deaths, in a blue state hospital. Depends on you believe her or not, off course.

Any bets that wonderful nurse will be accused of taking hospital property or IP home with her? 

You can see she's just a bad egg right winger.  (sarcasm abounds!)

[SUZNV + 1,197]

10 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Any bets that wonderful nurse will be accused of taking hospital property or IP home with her? 

You can see she's just a bad egg right winger.  (sarcasm abounds!)

Most likely they will try to show sympathy that she is emotionally break down or crazy or something like this. But from my observation she still can control her words and logic.

Edited May 9, 2020 by SUZNV

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

3 hours ago, SUZNV said:

Most likely they will try to show sympathy that she is emotionally break down or crazy or something like this. But from my observation she still can control her words and logic.

You may well be right.  "The poor dear.  The stress, understandably, must have been too much for her.  We're all trying to cope."

Yep, that sounds about right.

[Hotone + 412]

Has anyone watched this?  It was aired on July 2003!  This can't be a coincidence!  The Chinese virus was cured by Chloroquine!

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Hotone