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The best way to defeat Trump in this election: China cancels all trade war tariffs on American exports

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I do not think China would do this, but I cannot imagine the better swift, tactical move.

The maximum cost of this magnanimous decision would be about 30 billion dollars this year.

This disarms Trumps anti-Chinese narrative in many areas.

Nobody could say that China is breaching trade war truce.

Decision should be packed as a friendship, humanitarian action to ease suffering "of our American brothers and sisters".

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7 hours ago, Marcin2 said:

I do not think China would do this, but I cannot imagine the better swift, tactical move.

The maximum cost of this magnanimous decision would be about 30 billion dollars this year.

This disarms Trumps anti-Chinese narrative in many areas.

Nobody could say that China is breaching trade war truce.

Decision should be packed as a friendship, humanitarian action to ease suffering "of our American brothers and sisters".

You mean ‘ease the suffering’ unleashed on American, and the world, by the CCP? Let’s not (and it won’t be) forget this ‘humanitarian’ action!

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On 5/3/2020 at 4:34 AM, Marcin2 said:

I do not think China would do this, but I cannot imagine the better swift, tactical move.

The maximum cost of this magnanimous decision would be about 30 billion dollars this year.

This disarms Trumps anti-Chinese narrative in many areas.

Nobody could say that China is breaching trade war truce.

Decision should be packed as a friendship, humanitarian action to ease suffering "of our American brothers and sisters".

30 Billion dollars per year.  Oh my, that only leaves approximately $520 Billion a year, give or take $50 Billion, in IP theft by the Chinese.  It is a start, I guess.

The only people who are saying this will be a victory are the Left and the Left MSM.  Which, oddly, seems to portray them as being FOR a Chinese victory against the United States.  Hmm.  How in the world does China capitulating remove the reasons for the U.S tariffs on Chinese goods?  Here, hold my Kool-Aid.

If China actually removes tariffs on U.S. goods it simply means MORE U.S. goods will flow into China.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times:  China needs to feed itself.

And finally, if Hillary Clinton couldn't win over Trump, why in the world do you think any old white man is going to do better?  She was arguably their best chance, as sad as that may be.

Humanitarian??????  The country that arguably just killed over a quarter of a million of the world's citizens, almost all of them civilians.  Hmm.

Edited by Dan Warnick
1/2 million to 1/4 million
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15 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

"Trade War truce?"  There isn't going to be any trade, forget about those guys.  Will China disintergrate internally without the cash influx from sales to the Americans?  Probably.    Nobody cares about China any more.  China is done. 

Given how entangled the two economies have become, how do you see this playing out?  How does the US go about disentangling itself, and how long does that process take? 

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32 minutes ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Given how entangled the two economies have become, how do you see this playing out?  How does the US go about disentangling itself, and how long does that process take? 

I suggest you have to take into consideration the personality of Mr. Trump, who is, let's face it, the key player in this drama.  He tends to be an impulsive guy.  As far as he is concerned, the Chinese are exploiting the Americans, and he will put his foot down just as hard as the Congress will let him get away with.  

Let's start with the current tariff, and I have lost track of it, but let's say 25%.  You have to anticipate that this will go much higher on a wide range of manufactured goods, likely to at least 49% and possibly 60%.  Certain goods will go to 100%, and some goods, such as the infamous Hauwai switchgear, will be flat-out prohibited.    If you take a Chinese shipyard with a 25% tariff wall on his new ships, what on earth could he build and sell to an American?  Nothing?  That's right - nothing.  Those orders are headed for yards in Korea or Romania.  It makes no difference if that is a tugboat or a containership, the yard is all done.  Bye-bye. 

OK, so the Americans are not big buyers of Chinese merchant ships.  Let's try something else:   Industrial sawmills.  Mr. Trump puts a 25% tariff on the sawmill.  Now, what American forest-products company is going to pay that, when he can buy that sawmill from Taiwan, or Brasil, or Canada?  Nobody.  Bye-bye the sales of sawmills. 

The two economies are not really that entangled; the trades are "opportunistic" in nature, in that US Buyers source from China because the stuff is on the cheap.  It is emphatically not without parallel sourcing; there are other suppliers out there in the world.  You may have to hustle a bit to get a new vendor on line, but that is entirely doable.  

Now, look at it from the view in China.  The Chinese need canola seed for fabrication into canola oil, which the Chinese use for cooking oil.  They can buy canola seed in either Canada or the USA.  Canada has some 350,000 acres planted in canola, but China is angry with the Canadians because they arrested that Hauwei woman for detention until the US DOJ files for extradition.  Meanwhile China is angry with the USA for imposing tariffs and for ordering the arrest of the same Hauwei waoman, so the 2.2 million acres planted in Canola in the USA has no customer, and the stuff sits and rots.  So, where does China go for its canola oil?  There is no exact supplier, as the seed is unique.  But China can buy a vaguely similar product, called "rapeseed," which is grown in places such as Russia and the Ukraine.  I think rapeseed is also grown in Brasil.  So, can China replace those US/Canada sources?  Of course it can.  Not very convenient, and the quality is less, but hey, for cooking purposes, rapeseed oil is a good enough substitute for canola, for the Chinese peasant buyer at least. 

Now that implies that the US grower of canola is out of luck.  Not so fast.  Canola is a great feedstock for bio-diesel, and that stuff is in demand, especially for use in urban areas where regular diesel would carry unwanted components including particulates.  With the collapse in oil prices, the canola oil for diesel has no real market, but that comes back.  Also, keep in mind that the entire vision of canola is a new construct, where farmers took land used for "something else" and started planting canola specifically for the China trade.  Can that land be used for yet another crop?  But of course; it can and it will. 

So I say again that there is nothing that directly binds China and the USA together in some Gordian Knot.  The trade is all opportunistic, not like the trade between Canada and the USA which is completely intertwined and could not be unscrambled without immense effort, if at all.  China sells the USA (and Europe) cheap plastic garbage bags.  Can Americans manufacture garbage bags?  Of course they can; it is all a matter of price.  Walmart alone imported $60 billion of goods from China, the largest single US importer.  Can the USA survive without WalMart Corporation?  Of course it can; everything inside WalMart is purely opportunistic, it has buyers solely on price. OK, so the Americans end up paying more;  in the vision of Mr. Trump, that is a price worth paying.  And what he say, is what goes. 

At this point I assume Mr. Trump will be re-elected, and I assume his wife will not prevail on him to resign.  Assuming he remains as President for another four years, before that time the USA will be completely disentangled from China, and China will be in a heap of hurt, with several hundred million unemployed. I don't see how the Chinese can resolve that, other than to go back to a subsistence agrarian economy.  Those artifical islands in the South China Sea quickly start to lose their appeal; who needs them, if you have no country?

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16 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

There is no logical reason for the American voters to wish to reject a second term of Donald Trump 

Do you think logic explains how people vote? I am pretty sure most people are not evidence based in their thinking.

There is a large group of people in the US how find the social values Trump campaigns on issues that will cause them not to vote for anyone but Trump. American is a majority minority country at age 25 and younger. If the anger I see in the under 30s I work with decides to vote, and usually they don't vote, then Trump is burying the GOP. The question is how many establishments dems, verses the OACs who will be in payback mode.

As wonky as this site gets concerning emotional political issues, it does tend to stay away from a multitude of issues that really, really, matter to some people. You have to hand it to the DNC for forcing Biden into the nomination. Steve Brennan thought the one social issue that could really F the Donald was #metoo. So pick creepy handsie Uncle. 

So on a silver platter DNG ran to the low ground when they had the high ground. Trying to suppress their own vote I suppose.

No telling how a completely messed up economy and COVID-19 will affect the vote, but easy to see an economic decline to make Hoover blush. The Feds punting to the states, and counting on industry. If the medical pros have it right at all, there's going to be some overwhelmed hospitals in some red states. Taking one for the team gets a lot less popular when it's your wife or father.

Trump's way is to radicalize his base and he is obviously engaging that path again. Folks that say he flip flops are wrong, he is very consistent there. But this also bring out the opponents. Can Biden suppress them enough? Life is strange, people even stranger.

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35 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

I suggest you have to take into consideration the personality of Mr. Trump, who is, let's face it, the key player in this drama.  He tends to be an impulsive guy.  As far as he is concerned, the Chinese are exploiting the Americans, and he will put his foot down just as hard as the Congress will let him get away with.  

Let's start with the current tariff, and I have lost track of it, but let's say 25%.  You have to anticipate that this will go much higher on a wide range of manufactured goods, likely to at least 49% and possibly 60%.  Certain goods will go to 100%, and some goods, such as the infamous Hauwai switchgear, will be flat-out prohibited.    If you take a Chinese shipyard with a 25% tariff wall on his new ships, what on earth could he build and sell to an American?  Nothing?  That's right - nothing.  Those orders are headed for yards in Korea or Romania.  It makes no difference if that is a tugboat or a containership, the yard is all done.  Bye-bye. 

OK, so the Americans are not big buyers of Chinese merchant ships.  Let's try something else:   Industrial sawmills.  Mr. Trump puts a 25% tariff on the sawmill.  Now, what American forest-products company is going to pay that, when he can buy that sawmill from Taiwan, or Brasil, or Canada?  Nobody.  Bye-bye the sales of sawmills. 

The two economies are not really that entangled; the trades are "opportunistic" in nature, in that US Buyers source from China because the stuff is on the cheap.  It is emphatically not without parallel sourcing; there are other suppliers out there in the world.  You may have to hustle a bit to get a new vendor on line, but that is entirely doable.  

Now, look at it from the view in China.  The Chinese need canola seed for fabrication into canola oil, which the Chinese use for cooking oil.  They can buy canola seed in either Canada or the USA.  Canada has some 350,000 acres planted in canola, but China is angry with the Canadians because they arrested that Hauwei woman for detention until the US DOJ files for extradition.  Meanwhile China is angry with the USA for imposing tariffs and for ordering the arrest of the same Hauwei waoman, so the 2.2 million acres planted in Canola in the USA has no customer, and the stuff sits and rots.  So, where does China go for its canola oil?  There is no exact supplier, as the seed is unique.  But China can buy a vaguely similar product, called "rapeseed," which is grown in places such as Russia and the Ukraine.  I think rapeseed is also grown in Brasil.  So, can China replace those US/Canada sources?  Of course it can.  Not very convenient, and the quality is less, but hey, for cooking purposes, rapeseed oil is a good enough substitute for canola, for the Chinese peasant buyer at least. 

Now that implies that the US grower of canola is out of luck.  Not so fast.  Canola is a great feedstock for bio-diesel, and that stuff is in demand, especially for use in urban areas where regular diesel would carry unwanted components including particulates.  With the collapse in oil prices, the canola oil for diesel has no real market, but that comes back.  Also, keep in mind that the entire vision of canola is a new construct, where farmers took land used for "something else" and started planting canola specifically for the China trade.  Can that land be used for yet another crop?  But of course; it can and it will. 

So I say again that there is nothing that directly binds China and the USA together in some Gordian Knot.  The trade is all opportunistic, not like the trade between Canada and the USA which is completely intertwined and could not be unscrambled without immense effort, if at all.  China sells the USA (and Europe) cheap plastic garbage bags.  Can Americans manufacture garbage bags?  Of course they can; it is all a matter of price.  Walmart alone imported $60 billion of goods from China, the largest single US importer.  Can the USA survive without WalMart Corporation?  Of course it can; everything inside WalMart is purely opportunistic, it has buyers solely on price. OK, so the Americans end up paying more;  in the vision of Mr. Trump, that is a price worth paying.  And what he say, is what goes. 

At this point I assume Mr. Trump will be re-elected, and I assume his wife will not prevail on him to resign.  Assuming he remains as President for another four years, before that time the USA will be completely disentangled from China, and China will be in a heap of hurt, with several hundred million unemployed. I don't see how the Chinese can resolve that, other than to go back to a subsistence agrarian economy.  Those artifical islands in the South China Sea quickly start to lose their appeal; who needs them, if you have no country?

Wow.  I didn't imagine it would be that easy, but now that you mention it, I see it: the US has options - including the option to spend less. 

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2 hours ago, BenFranklin'sSpectacles said:

Wow.  I didn't imagine it would be that easy, but now that you mention it, I see it: the US has options - including the option to spend less. 

People, especially pundits and newscasters, forget just how big, just how fat and prosperous, just how dominant the US economy really is.  The USA comprises some 25% of the world's consumption, and production.  It is a huge, luscious marketplace and economy.  As a general rule, either you can play in the American market or you are a has-been also-ran.  Everybody, and I mean everybody, wants to play in the American market.  

Take industrial passenger railcars.  Now, historically you would buy them from the Pullman Corporation.  Lots of railroads built their own, in their own shops.  Later, offshore builders got into the action, including stalwarts such as Kawasaki from Japan, and Alstom from France, and Bombardier from Canada.  So, the USa started to put both tariff barriers and  "buy Ameerica" content quotas on those railcars, if they were being built for a contract funded in part by the Federal Railway Administration.  "Buy-America" effectively required the offshore builders to set up assembly plants inside the USa to have the minimum US content, mostly labor content.  To illustrate, Kawasaki put up a subway-car plant in Yonker, New York, a suburb of New York City and bordering Manhattan to the North, specifically to take in kitted railcars from Japan and put them together inside the USa, then sell them to the New York Metropolitain Transit Authority.  Ithink the minimum content is 25% but if I have that number worng, it won't be by much.   And all the players built those plants:  the Spanish built a plant for railcars in Upstate New York, the Germans put one up in Canifornia near Sacramento, another player built a plant in Illinois, and yet another took over a bankrupt auto-parts factory in Milwaukie to go build higher-speed trainsets for both Wisconsin and Illinois.   Those plants in large measure import parts kits and aseembly here, but there is nothing to stop them from expanding into metal-work  ["bending metal"] to build the car bodies, and nothing to stop them from sourcing everything from the wheel-sets to the air-cionditioning from US manufactgurers inside the USA. 

So there is a lot of historical precedent for "made in USA" requirements, which admittedly do not apply to consumer items such as bedroom furniture,  which used to be made in Vermont and North Carolina, and now largely made in China,  but those types of consumer items are rapidly attacked with tariffs.  Whack a 40% tariff on your bedroom set and you can bet it will not be coming from China any more.  In the short term it might come from say Italy, assuming the tariff is lower or waived, or possibly Canada, but soon enough the factories in the Carolinas will be humming again.

And that is Trump's vision: to get those American factories running full tilt, building stuff for Americans in America.  On a personal level, I support that vision, although I am not adverse to trading (and buying from) Canada, South Afvrica, and all of Europe.  I am looking at sourcing specialized industrial machinery built in South Africa, machines that manufacture toilet paper rolls.  I will set those machines up in Vermont and possibly New Hampshire, and manufacture toilet paper, a bland consumer product that never goes out of style. Most toilet paper sold in the USA is actually manufactured in the USA, although the "master rolls" are made everywhere, including of course Canada. I would set up a pulping operation for the trashwood bulking up in Vermont, ship the pulp to a mill I have sourced in Quebec, Canada, then buy the master rolls from the Canadians and re-import that for slitting and packaging in a plant inside the USA.  You can see how intertwined the Canada-US economies are.  You don't have that relationship with China.  And that is why China can be cut off quite easily.  They are purely opportunistic exporters. It is nothing more than price. 

Edited by Jan van Eck
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2 hours ago, John Foote said:

Do you think logic explains how people vote? I am pretty sure most people are not evidence based in their thinking.

Americans are prefectly logical in their voting.  Do keep in mind that only 16% of Americans will vote a President in.  The President is unique in that he is always a minority candidate, representing everyone but in reality representing but a sliver of the population. You think of the distortion as a voter disconnect; in actuality it is a function of highly segmented vote inputs. 

Edited by Jan van Eck
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26 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

People, especially pundits and newscasters, forget just how big, just how fat and prosperous, just how dominant the US economy really is.  The USA comprises some 25% of the world's consumption, and production.  It is a huge, luscious marketplace and economy.  As a general rule, either you can play in the American market or you are a has-been also-ran.  Everybody, and I mean everybody, wants to play in the American market.  

Take industrial passenger railcars.  Now, historically you would buy them from the Pullamn Corporation.  Lots of railroads built their own, in their own shops.  Later, offshore builders got into the action, including stalwarts such as Kawasaki from Japan, and Alstom from France, and Bombardier from Canada.  So, the USa started to put both tariff barriers and  "buy Ameerica" content quotas on those railcars, if they were being built for a contract funded in part by the Federal Railway Administration.  "Buy-America" effectively required the offshore builders to set up assembly plants inside the USa to have the minimum US content, mostly labor content.  To illustrate, Kawasaki put up a subway-car plant in Yonker, New York, a suburb of New York City and bordering Manhattan to the North, specifically to take in kitted railcars from Japan and put them together inside the USa, then sell them to the New York Metropolitain Transit Authority.  Ithink the minimum content is 25% but if I have that number worng, it won't be by much.   And all the players built those plants:  the Spanish built a plant for railcars in Upstate New York, the Germans put one up in Canifornia near Sacramento, another player built a plant in Illinois, and yet another took over a bankrupt auto-parts factory in Milwaukie to go build higher-speed trainsets for both Wisconsin and Illinois.   Those plants in large measure import parts kits and aseembly here, but there is nothing to stop them from expanding into metal-work  ["bending metal"] to build the car bodies, and nothing to stop them from sourcing everything from the wheel-sets to the air-cionditioning from US manufactgurers inside the USA. 

So there is a lot of historical precedent for "made in USA" requirements, which admittedly do not apply to consumer items such as bedroom furniture,  which used to be made in Vermont and North Carolina, and now largely made in China,  but those types of consumer items are rapidly attacked with tariffs.  Whack a 40% tariff on your bedroom set and you can bet it will not be coming from China any more.  In the short term it might come from say Italy, assuming the tariff is lower or waived, or possibly Canada, but soon enough the factories in the Carolinas will be humming again.

And that is Trump's vision: to get those American factories running full tilt, building stuff for Americans in America.  On a personal level, I support that vision, although I am not adverse to trading (and buying from) Canada, South Afvrica, and all of Europe.  I am looking at sourcing specialized industrial machinery built in South Africa, machines that manufacture toilet paper rolls.  I will set those machines up in Vermont and possibly New Hampshire, and manufacture toilet paper, a bland consumer product that never goes out of style. Most toilet paper sold in the USA is actually manufactured in the USA, although the "master rolls" are made everywhere, including of course Canada. I would set up a pulping operation for the trashwood bulking up in Vermont, ship the pulp to a mill I have sourced in Quebec, Canada, then buy the master rolls from the Canadians and re-import that for slitting and packaging in a plant inside the USA.  You can see how intertwined the Canada-US economies are.  You don't have that relationship with China.  And that is why China can be cut off quite easily.  They are purely opportunistic exporters. It is nothing more than price. 

Ohh my...i have given up a over the top marketing ideal merely to have some fun with TDS. Now that you are nearing fruition we need to have a...conversation in regards to intellectual creativity and conceptual originality...I must say the potential is out of this world...and then there is trademarks...so many opportunities so little time.

90298732_3201556776549671_5777377942568960000_n (1).jpg

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1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ohh my...i have given up a over the top marketing ideal merely to have some fun with TDS. Now that you are nearing fruition we need to have a...conversation in regards to intellectual creativity and conceptual originality...I must say the potential is out of this world...and then there is trademarks...so many opportunities so little time.

That is not how you build a market.  Remember that you need a large consumption base in order to sustain a roll-conversion operation.  That requires a captive customer.  The way you approach that is to develop one specific large buyer, and convince that buyer to switch from current producer(s) to your operation.  The logical candidate as "lead customer" would be the State government. 

Any State is a large, or very large, purchaser of thse types of consumer products.  So you go to the Governonr  (easy enough for me to do, as we are on a first-name cordial basis) and sit him down and say, "I need you to switch all your paper buys over to this new venture, and in return I will drop the price of what you are paying by 5%."  He might actually pay more, but not to press your luck.  OK, so then all those State offices, the prisons, whatever, all are buying your rolls.   Now you go to the hospitals, and say to them:  "I need you to support local manufacturing, so switch to us."  And if they don't, then you publicly shame them. 

Once you get that part up and running, then you can go to the supermarket chains and cajole them to switch their buys to your product.  It might require some form of special packaging, including that old stand-by, "Made in Vermont," and "Vermont Strong!", a take-off of the slogan front license plates the State was selling after the disastrous flooding of Hurricane Irene.   And after that, you  can duplicate the experience in the next-door States. 

Attempting to go after a very niche label in the beginning, as you suggest, will leave you with a lot of marketing effort, a lot of distribution costs, and little volume (at least at first).  And that is why attempting to be cute, always fails.  Cheers.

Edited by Jan van Eck
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"America" you on the verge of losing your democracy! If Trump were to win, he'd attack American democracy even further. 

'How' even now too many people don't fully realise that Trump would not even be president, if it had not been for Putin releasing emails KGB and the like had stolen from the Democrats! Emails covering issues which Clinton had already been investigated for!

At this point Hillary was 6% ahead in the polls, and then lost that lead to Trump. 

By the time she was cleared it was too late!

How is it many Americans don't realise this, this is 'your' country, and the risk of losing "your" democracy?

There are "thousand" and 'one' reasons not to vote for Trump, the over "16 000" lies he has told the American people and the world for a start off!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/01/20/president-trump-made-16241-false-or-misleading-claims-his-first-three-years/  

And for crying out loud, don't watch Fox News please. It's a propaganda mouthpiece of Murdoch, which lied to people here in Britain to give us Brexit. 

FOXNEWS lies… misleading those who will suffer the most under a Republican Government!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg_HW0eaIyM  @GOP

#Fox News:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUeDW9vA6o 

This is the poor woman who lost her child in a detention centre because of Trump. If you can't watch the video enclosed... then on 'pinciple' we shouldn't be voting Trump:


Mother, whose child died in a ICE detention centre, speaks out in an emotional testimony:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/10/house-hearing-migrant-children-detention-facilities  

Remember when Trump‘mocked’ a disabled reporter, parents of a disabled person speak out? How can anyone with good conscience vote for this man. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QUYQUd0Qh8&feature=youtu.be

The rest of these links are information I share on Twitter, hence the @ symbols:

Sheriff on voting @realDonaldTrump and now seeing friends deported: “Shame on me for being short sighted, but these are real people.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-42667659/the-missing-consequences-of-trump-s-immigration-crackdown?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LaMvAGT1U84-pAfPAzW1CFxYj-wJPnUuViH8WrsSGARyvN9GYzHjXqX4

#Taxes:

 

This Disney heiress benefited ‘hugely’ by @RealDonaldTrump’s tax cuts! She admits she doesn’t need the money… this is #Trump “buying” the votes of the richest & most powerful people in #America!

 

pic.twitter.com/nJW7eLuZAY

 

Under @realdonaldTrump’s #tax plans, foreigners who own corporate stock will get a “bigger” tax cut than the entire working class population…

 

 pic.twitter.com/uKJFUqSUb0     #Trump @GOP @FoxNews  

 

PROOF #TRUMP DESERVED TO BE #IMPEACHED AND LIED:

 

Cast iron “proof” that it was right to impeach @RealDonaldTrump. “Proof” of his criminal behaviour and attempt to undermine America & the world’s #democracy:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=553956068774086  @GOP

 

#Ukraine @RealDonaldTrump impeachment #FactCheck ‘how’ often #Trump & @GOP lied!!!

 

https://www.factcheck.org/issue/ukraine/

 

This the “proof” with ‘links’ of the numerous times @RealDonaldTrump has lied,  on many occasions… with such as dealing with the #Coronavirus - placing people’s lives at risk!

https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/  #Trump @GOP #TrumpElection2020

 

.@realDonaldTrump has made “16 241” false or misleading claims… or just downright lies!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/01/20/president-trump-made-16241-false-or-misleading-claims-his-first-three-years/   #Trump

I’m taking your health care to give massive tax cuts to my billionaire friends!

pic.twitter.com/PDwRDL0k8y

Mother of 5 dies in Washington Prison suffering mental health issues related to diabetes and dies:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/washington-state-mother-seen-crawling-vomiting-disturbing-video-before-she-died-in-jail/

#CoronaVirus speech: https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/2842780935815571/?notif_id=1584130768335133&notif_t=live_video

And again #Sanders has got behind #Biden so why can't "you" have the grace and maturity to do the same?

#GunControl:
 

US School Shootings in no way approach being normal… in ‘any’ country in the world except #America where there are “100s” more since 2009 - in comparison to the next worst country Mexico! pic.twitter.com/2SytgP7V48 @realDonaldTrump @GOP #Trump

The @GOP & @realDonaldTrump are against gun control...?  

Over "30 000 deaths" in one year, which equals 10 x 9/11 attacks!

http://pic.twitter.com/LvepcRfbhV  #Trump

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@Sebastian WhiteYou do realize that a left wing rant does not make Trump any less attractive to his voters?

You raise all the issues that are NOT important to his voters. Do you think there is anyone who cares that he is an A hole and womanizer and intellectually lazy? If his evangelical voters can forgive him for his soft porn video, then they generally have it for the guy as their leader, good or bad. 

He stands against "the swamp" and practically all your bullets are about swamp policy. 

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2 hours ago, 0R0 said:

@Sebastian WhiteYou do realize that a left wing rant does not make Trump any less attractive to his voters?

You raise all the issues that are NOT important to his voters. Do you think there is anyone who cares that he is an A hole and womanizer and intellectually lazy? If his evangelical voters can forgive him for his soft porn video, then they generally have it for the guy as their leader, good or bad. 

He stands against "the swamp" and practically all your bullets are about swamp policy. 

What about his handling of the Wuhan virus?

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(edited)

The first symptom of Trump being a dictator will be all the MSM start praising for him, which may mean Democrat Party is  disbanded? I can live with that in the short run unless he is still young.

I don't think it is a possible option in the US. US presidents may be seen as powerful man/woman on other countries, as the way they look up their leaders, but domestically, most Presidents, love them or hate them, are daily clowns in the majority US public eyes. US people always criticize their presidents in their time, even with Washington or Lincoln. They only respect their presidents with good legacies, but not in their president terms.

Edited by SUZNV
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3 hours ago, 0R0 said:

@Sebastian WhiteYou do realize that a left wing rant does not make Trump any less attractive to his voters?

You raise all the issues that are NOT important to his voters. Do you think there is anyone who cares that he is an A hole and womanizer and intellectually lazy? If his evangelical voters can forgive him for his soft porn video, then they generally have it for the guy as their leader, good or bad. 

He stands against "the swamp" and practically all your bullets are about swamp policy. 

I agree. I think the best way to describe trump is as a populist. I think different people/groups latched on to populist sentiments for very different reasons however.

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8 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

I agree. I think the best way to describe trump is as a populist. I think different people/groups latched on to populist sentiments for very different reasons however.

I always confuse with the concept of populist. Which leaders in the world don't/didn't have crazy fans supporting them? From democracy to dictatorship or totalitarian countries? 

Edited by SUZNV

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8 minutes ago, SUZNV said:

I confused with the concept of populist. Which leaders in the world don't/didn't have fans? From democracy to dictators countries?

I agree that "populism" is used pretty nebulously. What the oxford dictionary says:

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/populism

A political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

 

See also: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/what-is-populist-trump/516525/

I think Bernie Sanders also falls into this camp.

Edited by surrept33
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30 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

I agree that "populism" is used pretty nebulously. What the oxford dictionary says:

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/populism

A political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

 

See also: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/what-is-populist-trump/516525/

I think Bernie Sanders also falls into this camp.

Sounds great! Doesn't that mean all of the revolutions and independent wars, civil wars, for better or worse, came from populism? Populism on a democracy political system seems much better than wars. We cannot assume politicians will never be corrupted or there will never be any established elite groups, no matter how many parties a political system has. US did have a Electoral College system with is a some fuse mechanism for extreme populism mob rule (it only wasn't tested yet).

Edited by SUZNV

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Talking about populism, I can think of a system without any group of people will be ignored and people will be truly united together. Socialism ideology is classless. But somehow it always went wrong in the execution.  'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.", do we really want to risk with that opposite extreme?

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1 hour ago, SUZNV said:

Talking about populism, I can think of a system without any group of people will be ignored and people will be truly united together. Socialism ideology is classless. But somehow it always went wrong in the execution.  'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.", do we really want to risk with that opposite extreme?

For sure. I think this requires deep reflection: there are almost always very valid reasons why populist movements become popular in the first place. That being said, they usually require charismatic people like Trump to truly catalyze, which is why they have often died off fairly quickly as well.

I think my main beef with popluism is that many times, it can punctuate "in group/out group" social dynamics, which taken to an extreme, can also lead to dangerous consequences: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201012/in-groups-out-groups-and-the-psychology-crowds

This is not unique to Trump btw. See Hillary's "deplorables" comment.

Over the long run, America has been one of the best countries in the world in having a progressively more pluralistic society, so I have great faith in the country to get over the current polarization.

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18 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

Do keep in mind that only 16% of Americans will vote a President in. 

I think that's kind of the point. Such a high percentage just believe it the systems, as. representative system overall it fails to work on many levels to the point where they don't participate. Of course the fact the nomination process has a much smaller turn out effects things too.

I think it was Cheney who famously didn't bother voting in general elections. What mattered was long before the election.

And I do vote. The system is messy, but overall it has worked, warts and all. 

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1 hour ago, surrept33 said:

For sure. I think this requires deep reflection: there are almost always very valid reasons why populist movements become popular in the first place. That being said, they usually require charismatic people like Trump to truly catalyze, which is why they have often died off fairly quickly as well.

I think my main beef with popluism is that many times, it can punctuate "in group/out group" social dynamics, which taken to an extreme, can also lead to dangerous consequences: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201012/in-groups-out-groups-and-the-psychology-crowds

This is not unique to Trump btw. See Hillary's "deplorables" comment.

Over the long run, America has been one of the best countries in the world in having a progressively more pluralistic society, so I have great faith in the country to get over the current polarization.

I agree. As the US society nowadays is too polarized, a populist party win an election will make voters or other populist party feels left out. But I think Trump is the only source of polarization, at least MSM and Democrats was responsible for the other end. You can't clap with one hand and we have violent groups or good people on both sides. KKK  or gun owners avocation don't represent people who voted for Trump and vice versa.

Trump simply is targeted because he is currently in charge and responsible for his actions while the other side can say whatever they want without being held responsible and critics are based on the assumption that it would have been better if someone other than Trump had been elected. If it is the case may be we should invite politicians in Taiwan or Japan to help the Western world leaders improve their anti disease system that doesn't affect the economy. These countries and other economically functioning countries are the ones that the world economy can count on for a  less crashing depression and recovery.

The elections for Obama ( professional young politician with color, safe choice ) and Trump (new rich politician, very high risk) shows that lots of independent voters felt left outwith hope for changes from both parties. If we assume populism characteristic is it dies off quickly, then this election will be a test for that ( I always assume for the worst case scenario so I don't let my hope high).

 

 

Edited by SUZNV

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You obviously have zero understanding of the current political environment in the USA.

 

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