National Guard kills again

[John Foote + 1,135]

32 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

That said, State Guard units do not make good policemen. 

Not just the guard, but any most military. Policing is a very different business. 

In the end laws work because of the social contract that is accepted by the populous. The contract is uneven and under siege.

I, and Gen Mattis just today, agree on your take of the constitutionality of using the troops, but even if the Supreme Court upholds that view, it will in all likelyhood be adjucated long after the troops are called out.

I remember being a young boy and waking my father up and telling him of Martin Luther King's, and then Robert Kennedy's, assassinations. I went to segregated schools, and schools as the minority white kid in the first year of desegregation. I was cursed as young child for being anglo and catholic in Quebec, and it made no sense to a 5 year old boy. Saw worse versions of it as 12 year old, only then I was the white kid perplexed at why anyone felt that way about blacks. When my father was in Vietnam I'd have to conduct business for my mother because of how a hispanic woman with an accent was treated. Those kind of incidents affect my view on life.

I do believe we are fundamentally fairer than we were in the 60s on a race and sex basis. Life has treated me more than fair, plenty of advantages.

The country has always been fractured, but for most of my life I think we've overall worked to improve. We can all individually work to make it better in how we treat people. I believe it's a wonderful country, I'm proud of my service, and proud of the oath of office. And we lots of room to improve. 

As a fighter jock when we viewed encounters as opportunities. Look at our challenges as opportunities.

 

 

[Douglas Buckland + 6,308]

@Jan van Eck
 

”Short answer: he has no such authority”

Okay Jan, I see your points. But recently we have seen that many governors are incapable of addressing these riots. Let’s assume hypothetically that these ball-less governors either refuse to take action or are incapable of handling the situation, and the State is being burnt to the ground...at what point can, or should, the Fed step in?

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

6 hours ago, Jan van Eck said:

From what I can make of it, Frankfurter is sitting in mainland China and on the payroll of the military there, to troll US websites and discussion forums and disrupt democratic exchange.  I would not think he has applied to any State Guard unit, I rather doubt that such unit would accept a Chinese national in that military, as a recruit.  

That said, State Guard units do not make good policemen.  We learned that decades ago, in Ohio, at a college called Kent State.  Having Guradsmen with guns in a situation of civil unrest tends to end very badly.  Not something I would do as a Governor, that's for sure. 

@Jan van Eck

That's part of their effectiveness!  LOL!  And, politically, one could say it might be to turn the tables on those very Governors.  Shame them into calling out the National Guard, what choice do they have to stop the destruction?  Once again, Trump led a narrative that implied he would take control of their states if they didn't act.  Everybody and their brother knew he couldn't/wouldn't really do that, and he and everybody's brother knew he would be falling into a trap, politically, if he attempted to do so.  Trump gets strategy and when others say he is losing control or has no control, he is setting his opponents up to fall on their own swords.

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

6 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

@Jan van Eck
 

”Short answer: he has no such authority”

Okay Jan, I see your points. But recently we have seen that many governors are incapable of addressing these riots. Let’s assume hypothetically that these ball-less governors either refuse to take action or are incapable of handling the situation, and the State is being burnt to the ground...at what point can, or should, the Fed step in?

The nature of American society is that the Fed Govt is a "Limited Government."  As such, it has "Limited" powers.  The people who work for the Fed Govt don't much like the limited nature of the govt in the Constitution, so they routinely ignore the COnstitution and expand the envelope of power over the citizenry.  that is just the reality; the reality collides with the written Instruments  (Constitution and Declaration of Independence.) 

Example:  there was the notorious case of a past Mayor of Waterbury, Connecticut, who did just awful sex abuse on two little girls, around age 5 and 6.  I shall  not describe the details.  Worse, the mom or aunt, cannot remember, would bring the girls to the Mayor's Office for the abuse sessions.  Use your imagination.  Now the mayor would telephone the mom and instruct her when to bring the little girls to his office for gratification sessions.   That phone call went to the mom's cell phone.  As Waterbury is near the New York State border, it is conceivable that the cell phone signal would bounce to a tower in nearby NY.  That supposed crossing of State Lines would provide grounds for the local US Attorney, a real publicity hound and aspiring politician, to pretext for arresting the offender in that it came under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, granting the Fed Govt authority over interstate commerce.

When you think about it, it is a ridiculous argument.  The actor and the victims were all CT residents; the vile acts took place in CT.  It is a State jurisdiction.  It gets co-opted by that Fed guy in order to put a feather in his political cap.  Conviction is a certainty.  But it is an abuse of federal power. 

Analogously, the People have the ultimate authority to overthrow the Government.  That was the premise of inalienable rights enshrined in the Declaration of INdependence.  Revolutions are messy things.  It would be a cleaner deal if the People simply marched on Washington and commandeered the Capitol and took all the Representatives therein, told them, "You are Fired!", tossed them out of the office, and took over themselves.   Yet, that scenario is implausible, judging by the behavior of the Capitol and Parks Police yesterday.  So, you end up with Antifa jerks and burning.  It is the failure of both the People, collectively, and the policemen, to grasp that a revolution in America can and should be done "according to script," that the People have the right and inherent authority to oust the Government, and that the Government has the good sense and grace to voluntarily decamp those offices.  Then it goes without resort to violence.   

As a limited govt, the Feds have zero inherent authority over State insurrections.  You can react by saying "Horrors!" and instinctively look for a more powerful response to the criminality.  Well, then you have a different country; you have something more akin to France.  The USA is not France.  There is no Napoleon  (or should not be). 

Can the Feds ever step in?  I don't think so.  The idea of a Militia was that there would be no standing Army, and it was up to the People themselves to organize themselves.   That part has been forgotten; policing work is out of the hands of individuals and placed in the hands of a trained cadre, we call them the Policemen.   Now I invite you to take the example of Vermont.  The vast majority of Vermont towns have zero policemen.  Yet it remains remarkably peaceful.  Violent crime is practically unknown.  The people police themselves.  that the people are unfettered by "gun laws" also means that the vast majority of the People are armed - typically with a 30-06 rifle, and also lots of handguns,  typically smaller calibre, such at .38 or .40.  But the point is that they are armed - and everyone knows it.   Now, there are the State Policemen, but they are few and thin and widely scattered.  If you have to call for a State Policeman you can expect at least a 30-minute delay, even on a high-priority call.  I expect the same is true in Montana.  The offenses you see are hunting out of season, hunting at night  ["flashlighting" a deer], and with the druggie addicts, some property crimes such as shoplifting and burglary.  Offenses against the person are very very rare.  

There is a current case in Minneapolis that illustrates the power of the citizenry as policemen.  In that riot, one jerk goes and stabs someone else on the street.  The stabber is disarmed by the bystanders, who then form a ring around him of perhaps 20 feet radius, so figure 60 men, where he is contained until the policemen arrive to do a formal arrest.  That is the Militia in action   (works for me!).  Now, the stabbing victim gets largely ignored by the police arriving, because that man is lying on the ground surrounded by other protesters, who are desperately calling out for Help, but you also have those Antifa psychos with their bricks ready to pound out the brains of any policeman who responds to the critical emergency situation.   Nobody has figured out an effective way to disarm the Antifa assholes, so the policemen retreat from the scene, until they can arrive with overwhelming force.  When they do, the victim is quickly removed.  But in a life-critical situation, I submit that both the sole policeman on the fringes and the demonstrators comrades in arms have a duty and an obligation to step up to the plate, and if that is what it takes, to disarm and confront the Antifa jerks  (who, let's face it, are hard-core criminals). 

The stabber is then arrested, cuffed, and placed into a police car.  The Antifa jerks then proceed to throw bricks and stones at the police car.  See, there is the problem: even when doing proper police work, the crowd does nothing to deal with Antifa.  That makes for an impossible situation for the police. 

You ask, what happens when the Governor fails to act?  Well, in the American context, it is up to the citizens themselves to take command.  Antifa does their crap in Vermont, they can expect to be shot by the locals.  It is perfectly straightforward: the locals are armed, and they can and will rise to the occasion.  Precisely because the citizens themsleves become the ultimate police force, they have the authority to be a spontaneous militia, deal with the offenders, and also to overthrow the government if it comes to that.  Can the Feds usurp that ultimate inherent authority?  I don't see how.   

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jan van Eck

[notsonice + 1,255]

On 6/3/2020 at 1:03 AM, Jan van Eck said:

  He cannot.  

As a limited govt, the Feds have zero inherent authority over State insurrections.  You can react by saying "Horrors!" and instinctively look for a more powerful response to the criminality.  Well, then you have a different country; you have something more akin to France.  The USA is not France.  There is no Napoleon  (or should not be). 

Can the Feds ever step in?  I don't think so. ????????????

The White House meeting and Esper's reversal suggests the president or his aides pressured Esper to keep troops in the region after he told reporters in no uncertain terms that he opposed the use of active-duty troops as law enforcement right now.

"The option to use active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire situations. We are not in one of those situations right now," Esper said Wednesday in his first public comments since the protests erupted.

"I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act," Esper said, referring to the president's authority to deploy active-duty troops to respond to protests.

Edited June 4, 2020 by notsonice

[SERWIN + 749]

17 hours ago, Douglas Buckland said:

@Jan van Eck
 

”Short answer: he has no such authority”

Okay Jan, I see your points. But recently we have seen that many governors are incapable of addressing these riots. Let’s assume hypothetically that these ball-less governors either refuse to take action or are incapable of handling the situation, and the State is being burnt to the ground...at what point can, or should, the Fed step in?

I would think that the first step is to have that governor declared inept in a court of law, go in with Federal Marshals or FBI, or whomever and have that said governor arrested and removed. Then it should be up to the Lt Governor to jump in and make things happen.....

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:03 AM, Jan van Eck said:

  He cannot.  

More complications. I think it may have more to do with who controls the voting in Congress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_District_of_Columbia

[frankfurter + 562]

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-david-mcatee-louisville-bbq-20200610-zdlo45zd4vd5lexpy6dmgnsgxe-story.html

McAtee killed by National Guard.  Proof of earlier claim. 

[frankfurter + 562]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:14 AM, SERWIN said:

I would think that the first step is to have that governor declared inept in a court of law, go in with Federal Marshals or FBI, or whomever and have that said governor arrested and removed. Then it should be up to the Lt Governor to jump in and make things happen.....

Declared inept by whom?  Which court?  Federal?  Beware this thinking, for it is a slippery slope to your doom.

 

[frankfurter + 562]

On 6/3/2020 at 12:30 AM, QuarterCenturyVet said:

Hey (School of) Frankfurt-er, can you post a link to back up your claims, or are you just going lie and obfuscate like the CCP? This is what found. No mention of the national guard killing anyone. hmmmmm.... https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/01/us/louisville-protests-man-shot-dead/index.html  

see link above.  what say you now? 

[frankfurter + 562]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:57 AM, El Gato said:

Really, go back to China where you belong Furter. You have young teens and early twenty somethings who for two weeks a year and one weekend a month practice any type of military training, get shot at and training kicks in. (You conveniently left THAT part our). What do you expect? I'm surprised it hasn't happened more. If ANTIFA and the looters would stay away, this kind of thing wouldn't happen. end of story. They are young kids brought in because things got out of hand. So control your friends better Frankie, and the guard won't be out

why are you attempting to connect YOUR riots to China? 

[frankfurter + 562]

On 6/3/2020 at 8:23 AM, Tom Kirkman said:

Look in the mirror.

Dear Mr Vigilante:  the murderer is guardsman.  reported in YOUR media.  why do I need to look in a mirror?  

[frankfurter + 562]

On 6/3/2020 at 3:28 AM, 0R0 said:

@frankfurter lies again.

It is only in his mind that a shooting and presence of the National Guard come together as a causal connection. Besides which, they are controlled by the Governors, not Trump.  Trump's martial bravado is not legally possible, which he well knows. It is intended to pick up the interest of his core voters, who don't happen to be on the streets in the big cities.

For @frankfuhrer Chin'a imposition of its arbitrary courts ruled by the CCP on Hong Kong is equal to dealing with actual violence around what are otherwise mostly peaceful protests. The violence appears to be by provocateurs who are largely white and they are being handed to the police by the protesters. Are they  paid by Chinese agents?

The CCP propaganda narrative is off the mark as usual and has no room for serious consideration, it is laughed at by all who see it. Your bosses in the CCP would do better clamming up and firing you than having you post unfounded trash with no references.

Even if it were true, it does not put China in a better light, it just makes Trump look more like Emperor Xi.

The murderer is a guardsman.  reported in YOUR media. proven by YOUR authorities.  why do say this is in my mind?  

[frankfurter + 562]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:38 AM, Ward Smith said:

I say you lie

The murderer is a guardsman. Proven by YOUR authorities. Reported in YOUR media. 

Why are you calling me a liar? 

 

[frankfurter + 562]

On 6/4/2020 at 7:55 AM, Jan van Eck said:

From what I can make of it, Frankfurter is sitting in mainland China and on the payroll of the military there, to troll US websites and discussion forums and disrupt democratic exchange.  I would not think he has applied to any State Guard unit, I rather doubt that such unit would accept a Chinese national in that military, as a recruit.  

That said, State Guard units do not make good policemen.  We learned that decades ago, in Ohio, at a college called Kent State.  Having Guradsmen with guns in a situation of civil unrest tends to end very badly.  Not something I would do as a Governor, that's for sure. 

The murderer is a guardsman. Proven by your authorities. Reported in your media.

Why, in your mind, when I quote your media, you label me a troll?  But when YOU quote your media, you are not a troll? 

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

33 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

The murderer is a guardsman. Proven by YOUR authorities. Reported in YOUR media. 

Why are you calling me a liar? 

 

You said plenty of lies. As for the victim He fired first. What I said was it would be trivial to determine the COD and the bullet fired. I was right, but the bullets (5.56) were destroyed, which they'll do upon hitting bones. 

Meanwhile, the guard did their job and the police were supposed to have their bodycams on, but their boss didn't enforce that. Other footage proved the whole thing, including that a moron fired in the direction of armed police and National Guard. They are under no obligation to accept being murdered, much as you'd like that. Will the CCP accept you shooting at them with no repercussions? Try it, please. 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

30 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

Will the CCP accept you shooting at them

Forget about shooting,  try just complaining, and this is what happens to you.  Real fast to foreigners  (note the woman also):

Note that in CCP-land, you face your death with forced humiliation, hog-tied and on your knees.  This (above) public execution was done in a track-and-field stadium, the public sitting in the bleachers behind the photographer.  The CCP has this long history of street executions, kind of a State sport:

 

Go back 50 years and the Communists used a more prosaic mechanism for their public executions than the bullet into the back of the head.  Then, the street murders took the form of the Blade, nicely swung across the neck, while the victim had his head held in the proper position by a pull on the hair  (note the forced kneeling, so that you were humiliated in your death):

 

The Communists would leave the bodies in the street, to make sure that the message was clear to everyone else:  complain about the CCP, this is what you get:

 

Commies are big on the public execution.  This guy is about to be dead before thousands, brought out to make clear that you do not mess with the CCP:

Same State killers, different day.  Nice people, the Communists.  And you can show your support, by buying your stuff at WalMart. which imports some $60 Billion of goods from Communist China every year.  Made the Waltons quite rich, I hear. 

[frankfurter + 562]

No, not a lie. McAtee was killed by a guardsman. This is now proven. You should accept fact. 

Did he shoot first?  If you continue to read the text in your link, you should find a number of factors.  1/ Body cams were off.  This is a deliberate act. why?  2/ The Guard were on a street where witnesses state no demonstrations were occurring, and which was miles away from the actual demonstrations.  3/ Pepper balls are effective at close range, only. This means the Guard must have been at close range to their intended victims. 4/ Witnesses state the Guard shot first: THROUGH the open door of McAtee's premises, and INTO his premises. This means the guard attacked McAtee's premises. A clear violation of all that is sacred in the USA. Why?  5/ A round from the Guard struck McAtee's niece, who was unarmed, and inside his premises. This is proven by the cctv.  At this point, McAtee knows he and family is under attack and at lethal risk. Everybody knows the history of the Guard, and their weapons: lethal.  6/ McAtee fired back, in defence of his life and property, which is supposedly entirely legal per your Constitution. Why he decided to shoot, to invite a lethal response, we will never know; dead men tell no tales.

At this point in time, the so-called authorities are "investigating". Given the record of over 1000 deaths from police per year, with near zero convictions and info cover-up, we may expect what will be the outcome.

Labelling me a liar is in itself a lie.  You should control your hatred. There is reason why your country is now burning.

 

 

[frankfurter + 562]

6 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Forget about shooting,  try just complaining, and this is what happens to you.  Real fast to foreigners  (note the woman also):

Note that in CCP-land, you face your death with forced humiliation, hog-tied and on your knees.  This (above) public execution was done in a track-and-field stadium, the public sitting in the bleachers behind the photographer.  The CCP has this long history of street executions, kind of a State sport:

 

Go back 50 years and the Communists used a more prosaic mechanism for their public executions than the bullet into the back of the head.  Then, the street murders took the form of the Blade, nicely swung across the neck, while the victim had his head held in the proper position by a pull on the hair  (note the forced kneeling, so that you were humiliated in your death):

 

The Communists would leave the bodies in the street, to make sure that the message was clear to everyone else:  complain about the CCP, this is what you get:

 

Commies are big on the public execution.  This guy is about to be dead before thousands, brought out to make clear that you do not mess with the CCP:

Same State killers, different day.  Nice people, the Communists.  And you can show your support, by buying your stuff at WalMart. which imports some $60 Billion of goods from Communist China every year.  Made the Waltons quite rich, I hear. 

oh man, you are definitely unhinged.  In Photo 1 above, the uniformed are whites, not Chinese.  As for the black and white photos, the scenes date back prior to the formation of modern China, and thus are during the time of foreign occupation and civil war.  The bottom photo shows a person under arrest, not execution.

Your only truth is the Waltons made a fortune buying from those evil communists and selling to your drugged-up dumbed-down 'murcans.  The Waltons and communists laugh at you, all the way to their banks.

You should direct your hatred correctly. The communists never forced the Waltons to buy from them: never forced the Waltons to open WalMarts in China.  You never heard of OEM or ODM?  The Waltons specified each and every product standard they imported: the communists never forced their standards upon the Waltons.  As far as I know, no 'murcan is forced to buy anything from a WalMart, nor is any 'murcan forced to enter a WalMart.  As far as I know, if the Waltons buy at low price and sell to 'murcans at high price, this is the epitome of American economics.  If 'murcans accept low quality, why is this my fault?  Why you blame and hate me for this and more is beyond anything moral or rational.

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

20 minutes ago, frankfurter said:

Labelling me a liar is in itself a lie

Frankie's employers give a whole new meaning to the term: "Up against the Wall!" :

 

For that matter, they give a whole new meaning to the song: "On the road again...":

 

Don't think for a minute that all these grisly mass murders are ancient history.  No, in the CCP, slaughtering dissidents is grand sport, done before a cast of thousands, as this convoy of truckloads of the wretched being trotted out will confirm:

Note the Chinese guy with the TV camera, making sure that everyone can view this over their evening dinner.

Had enough yet?  Disgusted enough?  Why do you still do business with this scum?  Because that is what the CCP is:  real pond-scum, the worst trash of the planet, real offal.  Can you do anything about it?  Sure you can: don't buy Chinese goods.  Period.  Boycott it. 

[frankfurter + 562]

3 minutes ago, Jan van Eck said:

Frankie's employers give a whole new meaning to the term: "Up against the Wall!" :

 

For that matter, they give a whole new meaning to the song: "On the road again...":

 

Don't think for a minute that all these grisly mass murders are ancient history.  No, in the CCP, slaughtering dissidents is grand sport, done before a cast of thousands, as this convoy of truckloads of the wretched being trotted out will confirm:

Note the Chinese guy with the TV camera, making sure that everyone can view this over their evening dinner.

Had enough yet?  Disgusted enough?  Why do you still do business with this scum?  Because that is what the CCP is:  real pond-scum, the worst trash of the planet, real offal.  Can you do anything about it?  Sure you can: don't buy Chinese goods.  Period.  Boycott it. 

The great propagandist strikes again.  Man, you are demented.  Again, the black and whites are from the time before Modern China was proclaimed, during the times of foreign rulers, war lords, civil war. You show no proof who committed the murders. True, horrors occurred, which is the reason why the Chinese fought so hard and long to regain their country. The 'convoy' shows no murders, so your claim these are murders goes to prove your hysteria. Get a grip.

You are disgusted by a convoy?  I suppose the murder of George Floyd is not disgusting to you?  Or Breana?  Or your army, from a helicopter gunship, killing innocent civilians and reporters in Afghanistan? Or the thousands of unarmed villagers in Vietnam by your 'vets', which dates very long after the times in your b&w photos. Or the many millions in all your invasions? 

 

 

[Jan van Eck + 7,558]

1 hour ago, frankfurter said:

Or the many millions in all your invasions? 

You idiot.  You are incapable of figuring out my nationality.  What an idiot. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

11 hours ago, frankfurter said:

The great propagandist strikes again.  Man, you are demented.  Again, the black and whites are from the time before Modern China was proclaimed, during the times of foreign rulers, war lords, civil war. You show no proof who committed the murders. True, horrors occurred, which is the reason why the Chinese fought so hard and long to regain their country. The 'convoy' shows no murders, so your claim these are murders goes to prove your hysteria. Get a grip.

You are disgusted by a convoy?  I suppose the murder of George Floyd is not disgusting to you?  Or Breana?  Or your army, from a helicopter gunship, killing innocent civilians and reporters in Afghanistan? Or the thousands of unarmed villagers in Vietnam by your 'vets', which dates very long after the times in your b&w photos. Or the many millions in all your invasions? 

Ancient history eh? How about current events then? Next I'll post about the other minorities your beloved CCP is "purging" right now. No foreign invasion, the invaders are the CCP and the occupied land is China, Da Lu. 

[Bob D + 562]

What an embarrassment you are Frank.  SMH

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

How do we spell Uyghur again?  Always tough. The best links need to be searched using Hanzu but I can't type that. 

@frankfurter, there's an old (Western) saying, "When you live in a glass house, don't throw stones". 

Don't imagine the so called resurgence of Covid in Beijing is anything more than an excuse to round up and dispose of the hidden resistance. They'll get picked up in broad daylight and placed in armored vans with "Public Health" written on the side, never to be seen again (well, maybe their organs). Your bosses. Better not click on the link, they might come after you next.