Enough is Enough...

[BradleyPNW + 282]

On 6/11/2020 at 12:10 PM, Ward Smith said:

People in the south to this day do not consider the Civil War to be about "slavery". History is written by the winners, not the losers so the narrative is that it was all about slavery. It wasn't.

People in the south wrote down their reasons for secession, e.g. Georgia: 
 

Quote

"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic." Georgia, The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

What's that, did Southerners declare slavery was their cause for grievance? Yep, they sure did. In the very first paragraph for all to see. Ok, but maybe other states felt different feels. Let's check in on Mississippi. 
 

Quote

 

"In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth." https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#Mississippi

 

Ok, maybe Southerners in South Carolina could write a sophisticated case for secession that relies on higher principles than a desire to own slaves. 
 

Quote

"The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution." https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#South_Carolina

Alabama?
 

Quote

"And as it is the desire and purpose of the people of Alabama to meet the slaveholding States of the South, who may approve such purpose, in order to frame a provisional as well as permanent Government upon the principles of the Constitution of the United States,"

Virginia?
 

Quote

"...and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States:"

Texas?
 

Quote

"WHEREAS, The recent developments in Federal affairs make it evident that the power of the Federal Government is sought to be made a weapon with which to strike down the interests and property of the people of Texas, and her sister slave-holding States"

Mind blown, it looks like history was written by the losers. 


 

[Zhong Lu + 845]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/jersey-cop-charged-bodycam-footage-133527194.html

 

A New Jersey police officer has been charged with assault after bodycam footage showed the man allegedly using pepper spray on a group of young black men unjustly.

Ryan Dubiel, 31, directed pepper spray at people “without provocation” when responding to a trespassing call, according to the Camden County Prosecutor’s Office.

And here is the key quote:

The Attorney General Gurbir Grewal revealed that Dubiel had been with the department for 10 months and previously worked at nine other police departments.

***********************************************************

I find this detail sort of interesting. Considering that this man has worked for 9 other police departments by age 31, why did the 10th one hire him? It's almost as if because of police unions and the so-called "blue wall", the bad officers are being recycled back into new departments.  

Edited June 12, 2020 by Zhong Lu

[Zhong Lu + 845]

People constantly talk about the "following the law."  But it would be helpful if the police would themselves to follow the law, and perhaps lie a little less in their police reports.  Hurts their credibility, especially in the age of body cams and cell phone cameras.

[frankfurter + 562]

5 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Can you prove, with evidence these claims? 

My friend is president of an engineering firm, which has the misfortune at present of being across the street from ground zero of the riots. The SWAT team made arrangements with his building manager (they rent, like 99.9% of businesses out there), to use the space. The manager readily agreed, because it's better to have them available as a bulwark than be calling the insurance company and losing your tenants. BTW insurance companies are calling force majure on claims right now, so you'll have to fight them to get your claims paid. 

The SWAT team parked themselves in his offices, because they were the best in the building and they faced the action. They ensconced in his conference room and raided his mini fridge. The building manager said, "take it off your rent", which was eminently practical. They've stayed there multiple nights, and he's made extra effort to stock the fridge with lots of goodies and brought in inflatable beds so they'd be more comfy. They're human beings too and have been handed a hard assignment. When SWAT has to intervene, things have gone pear shaped badly. 

how is any of above different from the modus operandi della mafia ?  

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

6 hours ago, BradleyPNW said:

People in the south wrote down their reasons for secession, e.g. Georgia: 
 

What's that, did Southerners declare slavery was their cause for grievance? Yep, they sure did. In the very first paragraph for all to see. Ok, but maybe other states felt different feels. Let's check in on Mississippi. 
 

Ok, maybe Southerners in South Carolina could write a sophisticated case for secession that relies on higher principles than a desire to own slaves. 
 

Alabama?
 

Virginia?
 

Texas?
 

Mind blown, it looks like history was written by the losers. 


 

Reading comprehension required. You clearly have none. Try reading your own quotes and see the other grievances. In addition there are the parts you've selectively not quoted. But this is your modus operandi: misread, misinterpret, straw man arguments, and ignore facts that don't jibe with your narrative. Been working in the MSM long? 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

5 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

 

Are the riots over now in the US?

The so called media isn't pumping out many stories nor are the places I get info which are pretty good.

There is a bit of 'news' about the retards in Seattle's autonomous zone but that's just a joke and falling appart as we speak.

 

[Hotone + 412]

7 hours ago, El Nikko said:

Are the riots over now in the US?

The so called media isn't pumping out many stories nor are the places I get info which are pretty good.

There is a bit of 'news' about the retards in Seattle's autonomous zone but that's just a joke and falling appart as we speak.

 

The MSM news channels aren't covering it as much, but you can check this livestream

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Hotone

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 hours ago, Hotone said:

The MSM news channels aren't covering it as much, but you can check this livestream

 

Wow.  I was actually watching the channel and a confrontation was building as the police were evicting the protestors, and then...........

It all went blank.  Some "body" didn't want the broadcast of actions to come?

[Hotone + 412]

39 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Wow.  I was actually watching the channel and a confrontation was building as the police were evicting the protestors, and then...........

It all went blank.  Some "body" didn't want the broadcast of actions to come?

I think you can check on Facebook. They also have livestream of the protests

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

5 minutes ago, Hotone said:

I think you can check on Facebook. They also have livestream of the protests

Well, I could, if I had Facebook.  I'm one of the 7 people left on the planet that doesn't use Facebook.    Nothing against the technology, it's just that I don't care for it.

[Hotone + 412]

32 minutes ago, Dan Warnick said:

Well, I could, if I had Facebook.  I'm one of the 7 people left on the planet that doesn't use Facebook.    Nothing against the technology, it's just that I don't care for it.

Your age shows 😂.  There are a lot of people recording the protests.  I think you can go into Facebook on your browser and just search for the protest livestreams. 

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

32 minutes ago, Hotone said:

Your age shows 😂.  There are a lot of people recording the protests.  I think you can go into Facebook on your browser and just search for the protest livestreams. 

Garth Brooks, during his heyday, had a song titled "I'm much too young, to feel so damn old".  Nailed it.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

33 minutes ago, Hotone said:

Your age shows 😂.  There are a lot of people recording the protests.  I think you can go into Facebook on your browser and just search for the protest livestreams. 

Actually I don't think it's about my age.  Both of my older brothers use it.  In my case, I moved away from small town America at the beginning of my career, because they don't build international airports near farming communities, , and it came to be that I have lived/worked abroad for most of my career.  Also my wife is not American so she doesn't share any of my hometown history, if I can call it that.  Well, when I hook up on Facebook, who do you think is most interested in keeping in contact with me after all these years?  A whole bunch of women my age from my hometown area that are now out of failed marriages, or looking to get out of failed marriages, and eager to find themselves someone who took his professional life seriously.  I would never expose my wife to that and I'm not rude enough to just block old acquaintances.  Easier to say I just don't like Facebook, and everybody just chuckles and says your age is showing.

As for all the media offered and photos and videos and messages and "look what I had for dinner last night" and "look what it produced this evening", I just can't be bothered.  I already have too much to maintain without all of that.    If it means I miss some live feeds of a bunch of know-it-alls making their run for the goalposts, so be that as well.

But I do appreciate you sharing live feed links when you can.  It's entertaining on the one hand, and on the other it is good to see things with your own eyes from time to time, especially in our time of, shall we say, questionable media.

[Dan Warnick + 6,100]

Here is a very interesting interview that's well worth the 5 minutes to view and watch:

 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

This was predictable lol

 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

44 minutes ago, El Nikko said:

This was predictable lol

 

I didn't notice any black lives, does that matter? 

[El Nikko + 2,145]

18 minutes ago, Ward Smith said:

I didn't notice any black lives, does that matter? 

That is Newcastle up in the North East, it's a very white area so the other side are probably Antifa and the other assorted groups of far left like Hope Not Hate and Unite Against Facism...nice soft cuddly names but really their just as violent as anyone.

In London things are different and it's kicking off between BLM and leftist groups versus Football Lads Alliance and 'Patriots', looks like someone was stabbed in the neck so far.

The media is calling anyone trying to protect the statues 'far right' although mostly the real far right are staying at home because they know full well this is a trap and the police will probably let them get attacked.

Oh and France is in flames yet again but that's pretty much normal for France these days.

Eventually people will beg for more law and order, the government will gladly oblige maybe banning protests and when the economy finally collapses in a few months people won't be able to protest the loss of their livelihoods...

 

[BradleyPNW + 282]

13 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Reading comprehension required. You clearly have none. Try reading your own quotes and see the other grievances. In addition there are the parts you've selectively not quoted. But this is your modus operandi: misread, misinterpret, straw man arguments, and ignore facts that don't jibe with your narrative. Been working in the MSM long? 

 

[specinho + 467]

What are they trying to sell (NOT Head & Shoulder shampoo, of course)? That any statue that is not one of their grandfathers shall not be there?

[Hotone + 412]

3 hours ago, Dan Warnick said:

Here is a very interesting interview that's well worth the 5 minutes to view and watch:

 

Which part of the interview is more interesting, the 'extremist left' or 'freedom of speech'?

Edited June 13, 2020 by Hotone

[John Foote + 1,135]

On 6/10/2020 at 11:46 PM, Douglas Buckland said:

I have never owned slaves and neither have my ancestors.

Oddly enough I sort of have. An Indian, who was technically an indentured servant. I felt horrible about it and "bought" him to free him, taught him a bit, gave him a path to economic freedom, and with that, a literal freedom. The guy had a college degree from a questionable institution, owned a medical lab, but could support his family better working in Saudi than working in India. For a time I considered his freedom him my greatest accomplishment of my KSA time.

Although he was doing quite well economically he declined my advice, and essentially sold himself back into slavery when I left and I facilitated the sale to a kind owner so to speak. He was unable to free his mind so to speak and went back to what he knew, the system he grew up in.

In racist terms I was the silly white man trying to fix something beyond a simple fix. With COVID he is now trapped in his native India, so maybe he will be free this time. He had already paid for his house, his mother's house, his sister's wedding, and the bribes to get his bride a government job so he can probably get by. Hopefully he didn't take on debt.

My second favorite prayer is the serenity prayer, and it's never easy.

My point, which I clearly am failing at, is the answers are not simple. I feel no guilt from the past just because the USA had slavery and Jim Crow, but I'm not naive enough to think ripples of that mindset are over. The family farm was a thriving plantation, but my ancestors bought it on the cheap in the 1890s and ditched the sharecropper model and did quite well empowering people instead of subjugating them. Most folks can't be saved, they just stumble on as best they know, but often what they know is counterproductive. The police brutality issue is real, and there is a racial component to it. When a group fundamentally feel the law is against them, exactly what is their motivation to remain peaceful? Many years ago to save for college I used to do physical labor as the snow ball in the coal mine (their term, not mine), so I probably have an false sense of comfort with the unease although I almost had my throat literally cut one night, mostly because of my skin color. It was black friend who talked the guy down. Most people haven't fundamentally been outside the zones they know, and being a tourist and traveling in a bubble doesn't count as outside.

There is a can do optimism embedded in so much of the USA. I like to think our current mess will metamorphosis into something better than we were, instead of back sliding. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

1 hour ago, John Foote said:

Oddly enough I sort of have. An Indian, who was technically an indentured servant. I felt horrible about it and "bought" him to free him, taught him a bit, gave him a path to economic freedom, and with that, a literal freedom. The guy had a college degree from a questionable institution, owned a medical lab, but could support his family better working in Saudi than working in India. For a time I considered his freedom him my greatest accomplishment of my KSA time.

Although he was doing quite well economically he declined my advice, and essentially sold himself back into slavery when I left and I facilitated the sale to a kind owner so to speak. He was unable to free his mind so to speak and went back to what he knew, the system he grew up in.

In racist terms I was the silly white man trying to fix something beyond a simple fix. With COVID he is now trapped in his native India, so maybe he will be free this time. He had already paid for his house, his mother's house, his sister's wedding, and the bribes to get his bride a government job so he can probably get by. Hopefully he didn't take on debt.

My second favorite prayer is the serenity prayer, and it's never easy.

My point, which I clearly am failing at, is the answers are not simple. I feel no guilt from the past just because the USA had slavery and Jim Crow, but I'm not naive enough to think ripples of that mindset are over. The family farm was a thriving plantation, but my ancestors bought it on the cheap in the 1890s and ditched the sharecropper model and did quite well empowering people instead of subjugating them. Most folks can't be saved, they just stumble on as best they know, but often what they know is counterproductive. The police brutality issue is real, and there is a racial component to it. When a group fundamentally feel the law is against them, exactly what is their motivation to remain peaceful? Many years ago to save for college I used to do physical labor as the snow ball in the coal mine (their term, not mine), so I probably have an false sense of comfort with the unease although I almost had my throat literally cut one night, mostly because of my skin color. It was black friend who talked the guy down. Most people haven't fundamentally been outside the zones they know, and being a tourist and traveling in a bubble doesn't count as outside.

There is a can do optimism embedded in so much of the USA. I like to think our current mess will metamorphosis into something better than we were, instead of back sliding. 

You brought up an interesting point, that slavery is alive and well in KSA and thereabouts. It was alive and well when they were making their money selling Europeans the black slaves from 1500's onward. 

[Marcin2 + 725]

On 6/11/2020 at 10:22 AM, Douglas Buckland said:

Are you comparing the occupation of a foreign power with the domestic history of a nation?

I know that living in a socialist authoritarian state like Poland cannot be compared with Afro-American experience of slavery.

Slavery is so much, much worse and can be only compared with genocide.

I was not trying to diminish in any way the sufferings of slaves by comparing it with experience of a life in a country with curtailed civil liberties for example the presence of censorship.

I just observed that if much smaller hardships like in Poland could lead people to destroying monuments, it is 100% justified for the descendants of slaves to try to destroy any signs of glorifying the criminal and treacherous backers of slavery.

It is a real shame that such statues still exist in US.

I read somewhere that slave owner is even on one of US banknotes.

[El Nikko + 2,145]

42 minutes ago, Marcin2 said:

 

Slavery is so much, much worse and can be only compared with genocide.

 

Why???

You should be very familiar with the history of the Soviet communists who did unbelievably despicable things, the holodomor for one and the gulags.

Or is the suffering of people so much worse just because of the colour of the victim's skin?

This is just clown world levels of embarrasing, not your reply per sec, but all of it...the virtue signalling is beyond a joke at this point. There's barely a race on the planet that didn't engage in some form of slavery and repulsive oppresion of their fellow people but there's pretty much only one race/group that did everything they could (late admittedly) to stamp it out.

Feel free to prostrate yourselves on the alter of political correctness and see where it gets you, you can hand over everything to 'the other' and no one will give you an ounce of respect for it...most likely just hold their hands out and demand everything else you have.

[Marcin2 + 725]

@El Nikko I just have written about my first hand experience.

After the fall of authoritarian socialism in Poland in 1989 all the monuments that related to anything of that era were destroyed or moved to storage.

Later all the places that had names even remotely related to communism were renamed. No single such item, even the smallest one is left in Poland.

Douglas said that I cannot compare experience of Poland with slavery and I agree with him.

Slavery was much, much worse than life in communist Poland, it is something that cannot be compared.

In this context the current actions of descendants of slaves in US is something I really can understand.

There should be no single place or monument of any person that was an official backer of slavery or that fought for the case of slavery like confederate treacherous soldiers.

It is a shame for the whole United States to have any such monument or any place commemorating slavery.

Before these protests, as non-American I have not even known that such monuments can exist in US.

I hope they would be quickly destroyed/ moved to storage and places renamed.

It is high time to stop glorification of slavery in US.