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59 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

How a man runs his life is up to each man's individual purview of what constitutes a man. Where I come from, no matter which party the president represents, we paid tribute to the office of the Commander-in-Chief. 

I can tell from your posts that you're proud to be a lawyer, and that you feel strongly you're an intellectual with a keen ear to the ground. By saying things like the above, you are showing us a side of you that I doubt seriously you wish to show. The anonymity of the Internet allows such behavior and, like I said, your life is yours to run. 

As someone who has actually learned a few things from your posts--despite being on the opposite side of the political fence--I would suggest to you that you will get quite a bit farther by using polite language. If you argued in a courtroom, or even just took depositions or wrote briefs or a few lines in a Writ of Mandamus, I doubt seriously that you would have stooped to these levels. 

And believe it or not, the people on this forum are just as important as those people. In fact, they are those people. On the Internet, we are Everyman. 

I'm not a lawyer. I linked to people with expertise in the subject. If I talk about Roman archaeology I will direct people to a credited Roman archaeologist, usually a mainline source who doesn't talk about alien crop circles. You didn't learn from me you learned from the experts I directed you to. If I happen to be right about something it is because I got my information from someone who knows what they're talking about. 

Donald, in contrast, is the dipshit who tells McDonald's they don't know how to sell hamburgers. And said dipshit is using the highest office in the country to attack our institutions, our values, and even our grasp of reality. Donald Trump is the enemy of the American people. Which isn't all bad because Democrats, Independents, and Ex-Republicans came together to fight a common enemy. 

Donald is all bad, all the time. He has no good in him. None. Luckily, good Americans from different backgrounds and political views have come together despite the piece of garbage squatting in the Oval Office between rounds of golf. 

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Not only is a mask a fomite concentrator, it is downright dangerous in the way it is being used by most people. For 37 years, I changed masks between cases. If I had worn a mask for three hours straight, well, you don't want to hear about it. There is still a shortage of masks. People are still wearing about anything, and for hours on end. I talked to a guy the other day who'd worn the same mask for four days straight, eight hours a day.  

I hate to introduce this but after talking with about five friends who have endured mobile nasopharyngeal swab testing, I am equally concerned about them. In fact, I'm not sure that's where a good bit of spread goes on. 

Consider this--and then go check out some photos on the Internet. You pull in. There are six lanes. You're #46 in Lane 3. The person who is doing this is working as hard as he/she can. For those 46 cars, he/she hasn't changed gloves or gowns (there aren't enough to do that). In say 8 cases the person inside got almost hysterical about having a stick put up her/her nose so the tester reassures that person and stabilizes his/her head by holding the chin or resting an arm on the doorsill. If you're the tester, this is back-breaking work, leaning down and in, performing a medical task without damaging someone. In those 46 cars, in my area would be about six with positive swabs. With fomites on the hands and gown, it comes my turn. Well, I'm sure you're getting the picture. 

We might be better off not testing . . . at least in mobile drive up stations. And settling down and treating each person as if he/she had the damn thing, so stay well back. Are the masks necessary? The way they're being used, I doubt it. 

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1 minute ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

 For those 46 cars, he/she hasn't changed gloves or gowns (there aren't enough to do that). In say 8 cases the person inside got almost hysterical about having a stick put up her/her nose so the tester reassures that person and stabilizes his/her head by holding the chin or resting an arm on the doorsill. If you're the tester, this is back-breaking work, leaning down and in, performing a medical task without damaging someone. In those 46 cars, in my area would be about six with positive swabs. With fomites on the hands and gown, it comes my turn. Well, I'm sure you're getting the picture.

I don't believe there would be no glove changes after 46 tests, gowns sure. If gloves were in that short supply they would, mostly likely, just use a thicker glove and sanitize them.

I also agree the people who overact to the unpleasant test would be the biggest risk.

 

Full disclosure: I'm not personally going to go for the test, and I've only worn a mask once so far and that was when the store insisted.  I do keep my distance, try to avoid much talking or deep breathing, and wash my hands.

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11 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

 If I had worn a mask for three hours straight, well, you don't want to hear about it.

I do want to hear about it.  

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(edited)

 

5 hours ago, crazy trip said:

 Not mentioned in this summation particularly referencing the proper fitting of masks, is the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a bearded human to properly fit his or her mask.
 So beware the bearded troll !!!, and the rest of humanity who arguably are not following proper effective use mask wearing and disposal procedures.

——————————————————
 My summary of all this is that, first, we don’t have definitive evidence to know exactly what the effect of mask wearing is in every setting. But we can make some reasonable extrapolations from the data we have. First, for hospital workers, they really should be using the N95 masks, and surgical masks if the former are not available. For the public the cloth masks may be of some benefit, both in spreading and receiving the virus. However, the benefit is likely to be modest. It should not be considered full protection, but just a way to reduce the chance of spread a little bit.

But I think perhaps the biggest factor in terms of the general public use of face masks is the intention to treat consideration – how are people actually using their face masks. The data shows that the modest decrease in risk of spread is only there if people use their masks consistently and properly. When they don’t, what little protection there is vanishes.

Now I am going to introduce some personal anecdotal information, through my observations over the last two months. I am still seeing patients, with maximal precautions, which includes everyone who comes into the clinic wearing a face mask. I have also been deliberately observant when I am out in the public (for essential services). What I have observed is most people not using their masks properly. Many people have the mask below their nose, which is essentially useless. Or the mask is on loosely. But far and away the greatest violation of protocol is that people touch their mask or temporarily remove their mask, and frequently adjust their mask. This is understandable. Non health-care providers are not used to wearing masks. They were not trained how to use them. The masks can be uncomfortable, and whenever you cannot touch your face, it itches. So people are constantly fidgeting with their masks.

This may be worse than useless. We now have data of virus deposition on the outside of face masks, so touching your mask is a good way to spread the virus. Also, there is the “false sense of security” issue. People may feel they don’t have to be a rigorous with social distancing because they are wearing a mask.

So here, then, is my bottom line. Sure, wear face masks whenever you are out in public or have to be exposed to other people – but wear the mask properly, don’t touch or adjust it, don’t take it off or lower it even briefly. Further, understand this is only modest protection. It may statistically help reduce the spread of the pandemic, but it is not total protection. So you still have to adhere to strict recommendations to avoid spread – physical distancing and hand washing being the most important. Also, if you are sick, you can apparently cough the virus through your mask, so still cough into your elbow and not at other people or onto the environment. But most importantly, if you think you may be sick, self-isolate. A mask is not adequate protection for others.

So wear the mask properly, but act as if the mask does not work.

I think the main benefit of the masks are to the wearer, despite the transmission stats suggesting it is more protection to the public from a carrier. The key is that you obtain smaller loadings of virus upon infection when using your mask, so much so that you would get infected, your T cells would ill off the small viral population and you would produce only small amounts of antibodies, if any. So that kind of protection has not been tested for as memory T cell tests have only been started in Germany so far as I could find. Those show that people did indeed get infected when living with a symptomatic confirmed patient even though only 25% showed positive antibody tests, But 75% of those without antibodies did test positive for their memory T cells having activity against CV19.

Edited by 0R0
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8 hours ago, surrept33 said:

or example, notice how suddenly 40% more self-identified Republicans suddenly became anti-free trade overnight during the 2016 primary/election. Traditionally, free trade/free markets have been a very Republican position. It's people joining the wrecking ball that used to be the Trump train.

You’re getting the issue confused. It’s not free trade or no free trade that we’re concerned about. We’re concerned about which option had the best implications for industry. Since the Chinese have slave wages and depots of stolen intellectual property, we’d like their fingers out of our economy. 

Anybody who thinks that our relationship with China is economically healthy has got gravel pounded so far up their ass that their head is filled with stones. 

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9 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

 

I think the main benefit of the masks are to the wearer, despite the transmission stats suggesting it is more protection to the public from a carrier. The key is that you obtain smaller loadings of virus upon infection when using your mask, so much so that you would get infected, your T cells would ill off the small viral population and you would produce only small amounts of antibodies, if any. So that kind of protection has not been tested for as memory T cell tests have only been started in Germany so far as I could find. Those show that people did indeed get infected when living with a symptomatic confirmed patient even though only 25% showed positive antibody tests, But 75% of those without antibodies did test positive for their memory T cells having activity against CV19.

That is quite interesting, if i may ask is there any research being done as to training T cells to recognize and attack covid directly? It was many yrs ago the University of Pittsburgh  i believe...actually trained T cells to target cancer types in the human body, there were four patients who were tested using T cells therapy all four with terminal stage four tumors.

They all went into remission and lived. the body actually destroyed the tumors only after experiencing the worst flu like systems of their life..It is odd so little attention was given to that study i believe it was in 2005.

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(edited)

2 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

That is quite interesting, if i may ask is there any research being done as to training T cells to recognize and attack covid directly? It was many yrs ago the University of Pittsburgh  i believe...actually trained T cells to target cancer types in the human body, there were four patients who were tested using T cells therapy all four with terminal stage four tumors.

They all went into remission and lived. the body actually destroyed the tumors only after experiencing the worst flu like systems of their life..It is odd so little attention was given to that study i believe it was in 2005.

First glance that approach seems way too slow and expensive for COVID.

Cancer is generally slow... and only four patients were treated at what cost?  By the time this is developed and kicked in you are probably already dead or recovered.

 

Edited by Enthalpic
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1 hour ago, Enthalpic said:

I do want to hear about it.  

Okay, after you wear a mask for three hours straight, all of the moisture you've breathed out has created a soggy morass that almost certainly does more harm than good. A really good surgical mask worn appropriately and changed regularly prevents respiratory spread of viruses and  bacteria, especially larger bacteria like Mycobacterium tuberculosis and Streptococcus. But most of the masks, especially the way they're being worn, and often for hours on end, are doing more to spread disease than to prevent it. 

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13 minutes ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Okay, after you wear a mask for three hours straight, all of the moisture you've breathed out has created a soggy morass that almost certainly does more harm than good. A really good surgical mask worn appropriately and changed regularly prevents respiratory spread of viruses and  bacteria, especially larger bacteria like Mycobacterium tuberculosis and Streptococcus. But most of the masks, especially the way they're being worn, and often for hours on end, are doing more to spread disease than to prevent it. 

I suspect the discomfort drastically decreases proper usage as well (constant touching, adjusting, removals).

Thank God for fumehoods, I rarely had to wear masks at the lab.

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Maaaan, Lincoln Project is relentless. Conservatives are way harder on Donald than the Democrats. 

The funny part is their attack on Donald here is intended to link his failure to his senate enablers. In this case, Lindsey Graham. Rather than conduct oversight and ensure Donald did his job to save American lives, Lindsey took him golfing. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

That is quite interesting, if i may ask is there any research being done as to training T cells to recognize and attack covid directly? It was many yrs ago the University of Pittsburgh  i believe...actually trained T cells to target cancer types in the human body, there were four patients who were tested using T cells therapy all four with terminal stage four tumors.

They all went into remission and lived. the body actually destroyed the tumors only after experiencing the worst flu like systems of their life..It is odd so little attention was given to that study i believe it was in 2005.

T cell studies only got into gear last month so I don't know of more results quite yet. Not really putting an effort to keep up with that till they start producing statistically significant results on prevalence or as a treatment, which I had not seen.

Obviously a good idea for a treatment, but you are pointing out precisely why it didn't develop into a snowball of research - who wants to induce terrible flu symptoms on late stage cancer patients.

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10 minutes ago, 0R0 said:

T cell studies only got into gear last month so I don't know of more results quite yet. Not really putting an effort to keep up with that till they start producing statistically significant results on prevalence or as a treatment, which I had not seen.

Obviously a good idea for a treatment, but you are pointing out precisely why it didn't develop into a snowball of research - who wants to induce terrible flu symptoms on late stage cancer patients.

As opposed to high radiation&cemo....that would be me. Life with a smidge of the flu is preferable to death...or so i have heard.

Below is a early link to what was going on back then.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/13gene.html

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(edited)

1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Triple post?

 

Edited by Eyes Wide Open

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4 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

As opposed to high radiation&cemo....that would be me. Life with a smidge of the flu is preferable to death...or so i have heard. I lost a very close friend to a neck cancer, the staff openly stated the could beat the cancer but the chemo might get him first and it did.

Below is a early link to what was going on back then.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/health/13gene.html

 

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(edited)

I was wrong. A veterans group is going after Donald harder than the conservatives. 
 

 

Edited by BradleyPNW
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10 hours ago, Hotone said:

 

Lighten up .. 

 

 

IMG-20200712-WA0003.jpg

Not that all but Germany are islands or otherwise very isolated countries. 

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6 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Try reading @0R0and @crazy trip posts directly above. Try to pull your head out of your TDS while you're at it. For 99% of the great unwashed, mask wearing is a fomite concentrator! They don't change them, wash them or disinfect them properly, so when they are positive, they're just gathering more and more viral load into that mask, and their hands as they constantly touch and fidget with them. Meanwhile they've got the false sense of security that the mask is doing any good at all. 

Taiwan isn't doing well because of masks, they're doing well because they're an island and have an intrusive government. Here's what happens when you land on the island. They hand you an HTC phone on arrival. You must carry it with you all times. That's your tracker app, and you'll be immediately deported if you "forget" it. That and not masks is why their case load is so small. 

I love the phone idea for our immigrants or temporary  visa guests. 

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4 hours ago, Gerry Maddoux said:

Not only is a mask a fomite concentrator, it is downright dangerous in the way it is being used by most people. For 37 years, I changed masks between cases. If I had worn a mask for three hours straight, well, you don't want to hear about it. There is still a shortage of masks. People are still wearing about anything, and for hours on end. I talked to a guy the other day who'd worn the same mask for four days straight, eight hours a day.  

I hate to introduce this but after talking with about five friends who have endured mobile nasopharyngeal swab testing, I am equally concerned about them. In fact, I'm not sure that's where a good bit of spread goes on. 

Consider this--and then go check out some photos on the Internet. You pull in. There are six lanes. You're #46 in Lane 3. The person who is doing this is working as hard as he/she can. For those 46 cars, he/she hasn't changed gloves or gowns (there aren't enough to do that). In say 8 cases the person inside got almost hysterical about having a stick put up her/her nose so the tester reassures that person and stabilizes his/her head by holding the chin or resting an arm on the doorsill. If you're the tester, this is back-breaking work, leaning down and in, performing a medical task without damaging someone. In those 46 cars, in my area would be about six with positive swabs. With fomites on the hands and gown, it comes my turn. Well, I'm sure you're getting the picture. 

We might be better off not testing . . . at least in mobile drive up stations. And settling down and treating each person as if he/she had the damn thing, so stay well back. Are the masks necessary? The way they're being used, I doubt it. 

I wear masks in public but rarely am. My wife got a test because she is very cautious. No results from CVS after 11 days! Testing has been shown to be very unreliable in many cases or situations. It has also threatened personal privacy in the long run. 

Here is a good article on the Herd Immunity issue. That will put a lot of this PANIC to rest, finally. 

https://medium.com/@vernunftundrichtigkeit/coronavirus-why-everyone-was-wrong-fce6db5ba809

Coronavirus: Why everyone was wrong

The immune response to the virus is stronger than everyone thought

Also, here are all of my stories on Coronavirus:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MXY8T0j7k0oUBsHW4BfjJM__DRIyzqrDf_FSlV4hHpw/edit#

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4 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

That is quite interesting, if i may ask is there any research being done as to training T cells to recognize and attack covid directly? It was many yrs ago the University of Pittsburgh  i believe...actually trained T cells to target cancer types in the human body, there were four patients who were tested using T cells therapy all four with terminal stage four tumors.

They all went into remission and lived. the body actually destroyed the tumors only after experiencing the worst flu like systems of their life..It is odd so little attention was given to that study i believe it was in 2005.

What are the odds that the billions of dollars being spent on cell research will come up with something that WILL kill all or most of us?

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9 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

What are the odds that the billions of dollars being spent on cell research will come up with something that WILL kill all or most of us?

T cells are amazing little bugger's...When they are working correctly life is good. Odd science would keep them at a distance but then again perhaps not. If science was able to grasp how they function it truly would change the medical INDUSTRY.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131152/

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save1.jpg

This bullshit image is a shot of Mr. Trump with the mask painted on.  You can tell by looking carefully at the ear, where the mask strap runs from the top of the ear down across the face of the ear.  If the mask were actually affixed to the ear, the strap would not be visible, it would be running around the back of the ear, quite out of sight. 

I did a Search on the image and came up blank.  That image does not exist in the public domain.  So, it was artificially created, a rather juvenile stunt by those infected with Trump Derangement Syndrome.  Rather pathetic, if you ask me. 

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49 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

T cells are amazing little bugger's...When they are working correctly life is good. Odd science would keep them at a distance but then again perhaps not. If science was able to grasp how they function it truly would change the medical INDUSTRY.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131152/

This is the main factor those over ~65 years old are much more susceptible to disease, especially cancer. Once your Thymus turns to fat, those T Cells are never the same. Regeneration of the Thymus should be the goal of the medical industry, it's already been shown to work.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02638-w

Working on the bio-hack post I spoke about before, that link gives a hint about what I'm going to highlight. Theres some mind blowing treatments that will soon be available, most will think it's science fiction but it's on the verge of becoming science fact.

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6 hours ago, Enthalpic said:

I don't believe there would be no glove changes after 46 tests,

Many more than 46. 

There are not enough gloves.

And the system is overwhelmed.

And if you reach in and stabilize a person's chin with your left hand, and that person has covid, and you get it on your hand, you're going to transmit it to the next person you test, and maybe the one after that. I'm fairly certain, after watching some of these, that this small tidbit is going to emerge in the general databank fairly soon. Or, alternatively, I could be very wrong. You really may have to inhale a water droplet with the virus on it . . . but that would be a whole different form of novel. 

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23 hours ago, Zhong Lu said:

See? It's exactly BS like this that makes me think you're actually a secret Russian troll whose purpose is to sow division and chaos in American politics by repeating endless shit.  "It's always someone else's fault."  Online Trump supporters in a nutshell.  Which makes me wonder: are they actual Trump supporters or are they secret Russian trolls? Because no one can possibly repeat and believe such BS endlessly unless they had some ulterior motive.  

The other possibility is that you're a paid troll by some PAC working for the Republican party.  Though most of those PAC people who are writing this shit (Democrat and Republican) are on more popular and frequented sites.  

 

22 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 

TMB-Update-2020-03-08-053126.com&_nc_cat=103&_nc_ohc=ZUgmPXW1DEgAX8Pu7s1&oh=dbd3502f21c1b54c817fef046f15da05&oe=5E941EFC.jpeg

Not a troll...he speaks the truth!

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