America Could Go Fully Electric Right Now

[RichieRich216 + 454]

PURE BULLSHIT!!!

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 9/17/2020 at 7:58 PM, Dave Gilmour said:

Lol, how are you gonna fly an electric plane hahaha with 500 passengers from LA to Bangkok hahhaha.

 

what an utter crap post!

You obviously have not seen this:

https://amp.ft.com/content/9cc1c714-8408-422c-9f4b-1f76f5622021?__twitter_impression=true

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 9/13/2020 at 12:33 PM, Meredith Poor said:

What is 'dangerous' about that concept?

As I said, the average Joe does not understand the link between persistent trade deficits and countries that go bankrupt. All you need to know is that in order to consume more than you produce in a given year, you must either borrow the difference from foreigners, or sell assets to them. I hope you can figure out the rest

[Meredith Poor + 895]

9 hours ago, Wombat said:

As I said, the average Joe does not understand the link between persistent trade deficits and countries that go bankrupt. All you need to know is that in order to consume more than you produce in a given year, you must either borrow the difference from foreigners, or sell assets to them. I hope you can figure out the rest

The 'average Joe' does not understand that trade deficits means that some foreign country busts their butt to make things and ship them overseas, while taking IOUs instead of buying imports for their immediate consumption. These IOUs (in the case of the US these are Treasury Bonds) pile up in foreign central banks 'forever'. Americans live in monster houses with two cars in the driveway, while a typical Japanese family lives in a house the size of a US two-car garage. They produce, we consume. We spend, they 'save'. However, there is no point in saving unless you are going to do something with it eventually - like take a vacation. If all anyone does is hoard their cash, they die with a pile of cash under their mattress. This happens a lot in countries that export to the US.

American unions complain that foreign countries 'export their unemployment', which is a correct assertion. The US, however, then uses that labor to build new industries that have no competition. We end up with higher value industries - $999 iPhones instead of $99 televisions.

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

1 hour ago, Meredith Poor said:

e family lives in a house the size of a US two-car garage.

American unions complain that foreign countries 'export their unemployment', which is a correct assertion. The US, however, then uses that labor to build new industries that have no competition. We end up with higher value industries - $999 iPhones instead of $99 televisions.

This system works for a few years until one day you wake up and no one knows how to do anything as you have exported all the trade jobs away.  From the  trade jobs come the offshoot new industries who invent new products and who create the engineers who design new products as they KNOW all the screwups as they have knowledge of the hands on from those around them.  And then this pesky thing called war happens and you are utterly screwed as you have a few ancient people who have design knowledge with hands on experience, but no young people.  But the young did not grow up with access to free "junk" to learn the ins and outs of how NOT to design stuff and likewise do not know how to build a production line.  USA is currently in this position.  There are still a couple regions in USA which have manufacturing(Midwest) and have junk yards where you can get your hands on cheap stuff to learn, create, and build a new business cheaply, but otherwise if you do not live in this region, you have zilch.  USA is in for a bad couple of decades unless this trade knowledge is rebuilt and the only way this happens is a reduction in imports which takes decades to rebuild production lines. 

PS: Average size of a house outside of dense cities in Japan is ~1500 square feet, which is exactly what every USA house used to be until last 40 years when all of the manufacturing trade jobs were shipped overseas for short term profit with the advent of the Petro dollar in the late 70's.  Only difference is Japan has majority of their population living in very dense cities with small apartments dropping their average house size whereas the USA does not unless you are in a rare USA dense inner city and which case... the size for living quarters is roughly the same.  Who knew, people, are people everywhere...

[Rob Kramer + 696]

Been thinking about how no one is answering my tax problem for vehicles.  Then decided to look up tax and do the math (duh why didnt I just calculate it in the first place I dont know). So If your canadian and if gasoline is at 97c/L the tax on that is 43c/L (some are percentage points so they change with price) in Ontario.  Current electricity rates are 12c off peak 18c on peak. That's nuclear nat gas wind solar and Hydro (and that's a large portion of generation) also deliver is a base rate plus usage. So it is close to 30$/month. Now I exclude this *even tho to get the .01316$ kWh it would have to be utility size and not residential * so using SUV being the most popular vehicles.  10L/100km is probably below average but easy math so I'll take it. So 50L=50$=500km. Now tesla has the suv 100kwh battery and 500km range. So off peak is 12c (untaxed without any delivery) x 100kwh is 12$ what's the charge and discharge efficiency from house to road? 80%? ... so 14.4$ to fill for 500km. Now when the government wants the tax lost on ice vehicles let's add it on. So 50Lx.43c= 21.5$ +14.4$=35.9$ to fill off peak without delivery fees. I'd assume its .05c average so 5$ more so 40$ to fill a tesla SUV taxed at ICE. Now you could say go solar .... well in Canada solar works for half the year and is 30k$/10kw installed and you still pay grid fee 30$/month ish (batteries are more and a bigger system if not) plus you have to finance x$ at x% or loose x% of yearly dividends on that money .... so theres the Ontario tax equivalent EV to ICE. 

EDIT: for comparison only in transportation costs not luxury or status or blah blah blah . The 2014 Hyundai Tuscon fwd with winter tires 89k on it i just sold for 10k$  gets 7.9L/100km and the Van 17 dodge 90k I'm driving now is averaging 12L/100. So if new at 26k$ the tuscon would be 40$/500km at today's price. Vs an EV your not going to save. At 300,000km 10L/100 =30,000L × .43c = 12,900$ tax per average SUV vehicle (I'd argue 12L/100 is more realistic ) so 15K$.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Rob Kramer

[Meredith Poor + 895]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

his system works for a few years

A 'few years' being from 1970 to 2020. Looks more like a lifetime or two.

[Meredith Poor + 895]

5 minutes ago, Rob Kramer said:

Been thinking about how no one is answering my tax problem for vehicles.  Then decided to look up tax and do the math (duh why didnt I just calculate it in the first place I dont know). So If your canadian and if gasoline is at 97c/L the tax on that is 43c/L (some are percentage points so they change with price) in Ontario.  Current electricity rates are 12c off peak 18c on peak. That's nuclear nat gas wind solar and Hydro (and that's a large portion of generation) also deliver is a base rate plus usage. So it is close to 30$/month. Now I exclude this *even tho to get the .01316$ kWh it would have to be utility size and not residential * so using SUV being the most popular vehicles.  10L/100km is probably below average but easy math so I'll take it. So 50L=50$=500km. Now tesla has the suv 100kwh battery and 500km range. So off peak is 12c (untaxed without any delivery) x 100kwh is 12$ what's the charge and discharge efficiency from house to road? 80%? ... so 14.4$ to fill for 500km. Now when the government wants the tax lost on ice vehicles let's add it on. So 50Lx.43c= 21.5$ +14.4$=35.9$ to fill off peak without delivery fees. I'd assume its .05c average so 5$ more so 40$ to fill a tesla SUV taxed at ICE. Now you could say go solar .... well in Canada solar works for half the year and is 30k$/10kw installed and you still pay grid fee 30$/month ish (batteries are more and a bigger system if not) plus you have to finance x$ at x% or loose x% of yearly dividends on that money .... so theres the Ontario tax equivalent EV to ICE. 

Alberta: grain + water + cheap wind power + lots of free land + displaced oil workers. How would you turn those 'lemons' into lemonade?

[Meredith Poor + 895]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

This system works for a few years until one day you wake up and no one knows how to do anything as you have exported all the trade jobs away.  From the  trade jobs come the offshoot new industries who invent new products and who create the engineers who design new products as they KNOW all the screwups as they have knowledge of the hands on from those around them.  And then this pesky thing called war happens and you are utterly screwed as you have a few ancient people who have design knowledge with hands on experience, but no young people.  But the young did not grow up with access to free "junk" to learn the ins and outs of how NOT to design stuff and likewise do not know how to build a production line.  USA is currently in this position.  There are still a couple regions in USA which have manufacturing(Midwest) and have junk yards where you can get your hands on cheap stuff to learn, create, and build a new business cheaply, but otherwise if you do not live in this region, you have zilch.  USA is in for a bad couple of decades unless this trade knowledge is rebuilt and the only way this happens is a reduction in imports which takes decades to rebuild production lines. 

PS: Average size of a house outside of dense cities in Japan is ~1500 square feet, which is exactly what every USA house used to be until last 40 years when all of the manufacturing trade jobs were shipped overseas for short term profit with the advent of the Petro dollar in the late 70's.  Only difference is Japan has majority of their population living in very dense cities with small apartments dropping their average house size whereas the USA does not unless you are in a rare USA dense inner city and which case... the size for living quarters is roughly the same.  Who knew, people, are people everywhere...

Sounds like we should be posting a new topic.

[Rob Kramer + 696]

9 minutes ago, Meredith Poor said:

Alberta: grain + water + cheap wind power + lots of free land + displaced oil workers. How would you turn those 'lemons' into lemonade?

I added an edit. Is this a way to beat around the bush? 

EDIT: cheap wind power .... vs what min wage pedal bikers tied to generators? Certainly not past built nat gas assets.

Edit edit: Low income high debt nation with low employment. Youd suggest remove 15K$ per car of tax from the rich and add it onto the poor (who cant afford EV) 2022 carbon tax doubles arnt they struggling enough? Single parents ,low wage, students, elderly , refugees,  minorities.... these sound like tesla owners to you?

Edited September 22, 2020 by Rob Kramer

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

58 minutes ago, Meredith Poor said:

A 'few years' being from 1970 to 2020. Looks more like a lifetime or two.

WTO was when again?  1995...  When all the dictators of the world were let into the western partially based rules upon freedom/rule of law order. 

[Bob D + 562]

Back to the ridiculous premise of this thread ... 

3% of the population could drive

90%+ of all commerce stops

Black outs and Brown outs nation wide

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Bob D

[ronwagn + 6,290]

5 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

The 'average Joe' does not understand that trade deficits means that some foreign country busts their butt to make things and ship them overseas, while taking IOUs instead of buying imports for their immediate consumption. These IOUs (in the case of the US these are Treasury Bonds) pile up in foreign central banks 'forever'. Americans live in monster houses with two cars in the driveway, while a typical Japanese family lives in a house the size of a US two-car garage. They produce, we consume. We spend, they 'save'. However, there is no point in saving unless you are going to do something with it eventually - like take a vacation. If all anyone does is hoard their cash, they die with a pile of cash under their mattress. This happens a lot in countries that export to the US.

American unions complain that foreign countries 'export their unemployment', which is a correct assertion. The US, however, then uses that labor to build new industries that have no competition. We end up with higher value industries - $999 iPhones instead of $99 televisions.

Meredith, you seem to know a lot about economics. What do you think about inflation in America. Some think that it is hidden by changes to the formulas, used by our government, to pay Social Security and quote inflation rates etc. I recently read an article stating that real inflation has been 10% a year. 

It seems to be that most of the inflation comes from government spending and consumers paying the taxes. I realize that the wealthy pay most of the taxes, at least by percentage rate, but the middle class often seems to pay for the government, at all levels, and for the poor. In many states this is all coming to a head with the cities and states not able to pay government employees retirements and medical benefits. Those are benefits that most private employees do not get in an equal amount or, in many cases, get nothing at all except for minimal  Social Security or welfare benefits.

The levels of government and taxes include Federal, state, county, city utilities taxes, property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, schools and universities, and various community taxes. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/10/2020 at 9:53 PM, Boat said:

Biden wants to spend 40 billion 10 years in a row according to what I read. I think that needs to be closer to 100 billion per year on green initiatives. But 40 not 400 billion and trillions. Go google.

China is the biggest manufacturer of renewables and uses the least. Russia is a major producer of oil and gas and uses virtually no wind or solar. This is all a set up for a massive failure of Western economies. We need to use our own products for renewables. That means factories in the West or with friendly nations. Meanwhile hold off using Chinese products unless we have fair trade deals with them and they change their ways.  

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/3/2020 at 4:54 PM, Meredith Poor said:

The 60 cents per watt was the installed cost in a functioning solar farm. I'm presuming the land is government owned, or owned outright by the solar farm, so there are no third party royalties. More than likely, taxes are paid by the retail power consumers to the utility delivering the power to their house.

Big time. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/10/2020 at 9:53 PM, Boat said:

Biden wants to spend 40 billion 10 years in a row according to what I read. I think that needs to be closer to 100 billion per year on green initiatives. But 40 not 400 billion and trillions. Go google.

that is $40,000,000,000 of money that we do not have for products we do not need! Infrastructure would make a lot more sense. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/11/2020 at 12:26 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

In the US that other piddly stuff adds up to way more than oil or coal. Natural gas is the last fossil standing for electricity and its days for electricity are numbered on the order of two decades.

In your dreams only. You don't even worry about coal do you? It will be around for another fifty years. Natural gas is just as clean as renewables. In fact it is renewable.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:45 AM, Wombat said:

Doug, you have clearly not been directly affected by climate change yet. Hundreds of millions of people have been. Not a case of WANTING to go 100% electric, more a case of NEEDING to. If you think the fires in California or Australia are normal, then what can I say? Did you know that floods are the most expensive type of natural disaster? They are getting worse too. Here in Queensland about 10 years ago, we copped 36 inches of rain in 5 hours. I kid you not. The costs of climate change already dwarf any economic benefit from the use of fossil fuels. I am a bit of a petrol-head myself, the thought of having to drive an electric car bothers me too, but I suppose it will be a small sacrifice to protect my children's future.

The climate has always changed and always will. The ocean levels have barely risen in the last century and will not soon. Much of the world that is now above sea level was under water in the past! You folks are blind to reality. 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

2 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

Alberta: grain + water + cheap wind power + lots of free land + displaced oil workers. How would you turn those 'lemons' into lemonade?

Use the natural gas for heated domes and greenhouses Create a warm environment in the winter. grow vegetables for surrounding areas. Use the oil and gas for chemical feedstocks to build the heated domes and insulated greenhouses. Fabric buildings are becoming a big deal now. 

https://bigtopshelters.com/structure-types/warehouses/

Edited September 22, 2020 by ronwagn
reference

[Rob Kramer + 696]

3 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Use the natural gas for heated domes and greenhouses Create a warm environment in the winter. grow vegetables for surrounding areas. Use the oil and gas for chemical feedstocks to build the heated domes and insulated greenhouses. Fabric buildings are becoming a big deal now. 

https://bigtopshelters.com/structure-types/warehouses/

I'd say there due for a break and some family time .... let the lack of income bite the decision makers in the country equalization payment checks. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

On 9/21/2020 at 2:12 PM, Gerry Maddoux said:

Mr. McKinsey:

Is there enough lithium to produce these giant batteries?

Thanks.

Yes, as Elon explained at Battery Day there is a massive amount of lithium on Earth - That discovered lithium reserves today in just Nevada are sufficient to electrify the entire US transport fleet. And that the industry has really only just begun looking for Li. Plus as NickW pointed out, there are many other chemistries available for stationary batteries. Also keep in mind that Li only needs to be extracted from the Earth once. It does not degrade when used in a battery and can be fully recovered from recycled batteries.

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

10 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

The 'average Joe' does not understand that trade deficits means that some foreign country busts their butt to make things and ship them overseas, while taking IOUs instead of buying imports for their immediate consumption. These IOUs (in the case of the US these are Treasury Bonds) pile up in foreign central banks 'forever'. Americans live in monster houses with two cars in the driveway, while a typical Japanese family lives in a house the size of a US two-car garage. They produce, we consume. We spend, they 'save'. However, there is no point in saving unless you are going to do something with it eventually - like take a vacation. If all anyone does is hoard their cash, they die with a pile of cash under their mattress. This happens a lot in countries that export to the US.

American unions complain that foreign countries 'export their unemployment', which is a correct assertion. The US, however, then uses that labor to build new industries that have no competition. We end up with higher value industries - $999 iPhones instead of $99 televisions.

 

You would like the fools who think collecting no taxes will lead to prosperity. 

Uncontrolled deficits are not the route to prosperity.  You are correct that the average American lives a life beyond their means. It will come bite them in the ass yet again when the banks foreclose and the wealthy suck up properties for cheap.  Continual living beyond your means will further exacerbate wealth disparity.  The US does service it's debt and pays huge amount of interest.

Credit cards are not wealth.

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

6 hours ago, Meredith Poor said:

Alberta: grain + water + cheap wind power + lots of free land + displaced oil workers. How would you turn those 'lemons' into lemonade?

There is no "free" land in Alberta.  Available sure, but not cheap.

 

[Enthalpic + 1,496]

4 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Use the natural gas for heated domes and greenhouses Create a warm environment in the winter. grow vegetables for surrounding areas. Use the oil and gas for chemical feedstocks to build the heated domes and insulated greenhouses. Fabric buildings are becoming a big deal now. 

https://bigtopshelters.com/structure-types/warehouses/

We have a few very large greenhouses for marijuana growing.  Even with such an expensive "vegetable" they haven't been overly profitable.

Other than boutique crops it remains cheaper to import most fruits and veg than grow them in greenhouses.

We eat beef, potatoes, and carrots...

[Meredith Poor + 895]

6 hours ago, Rob Kramer said:

I added an edit. Is this a way to beat around the bush? 

EDIT: cheap wind power .... vs what min wage pedal bikers tied to generators? Certainly not past built nat gas assets.

Edit edit: Low income high debt nation with low employment. Youd suggest remove 15K$ per car of tax from the rich and add it onto the poor (who cant afford EV) 2022 carbon tax doubles arnt they struggling enough? Single parents ,low wage, students, elderly , refugees,  minorities.... these sound like tesla owners to you?

All I can believe from your evasive answer is that the answer to the original question is 'no'.