markslawson + 1,061 ML October 28, 2020 We've all seen bizarre suggestions concerning hydrogen, electric cars, renewable energy and so on. I thought we might compile a few of them. For me the top two picks would have to be .. 1 - After a period of rolling blackouts in California, Governor Newsom does not declare the state will fix the problem by building or encouraging more firm power generation. Instead he declares that the state will put an already struggling grid under more pressure by pledging to ban petrol car sales in the state by 2035 - effectively boosting electric car sales. This is just a token, of course. In 15 years, Newsom will be a memory, and his policy announcement forgotten. If it ever was implemented, the only important result of the policy would be to kill off the new car market in California. Those who want petrol cars will turn to the used car market or go across the state border to buy. However, the symbolism is entertaining. Never mind reality, let's make a policy statement that will make our nutty supporter base happy. 2 - Hydrogen making project. The Asian Renewable Energy Project, a consortium of companies in the renewable energy field, proposes dropping around $A30 billion ($US21.3 billion) building a heap of renewable energy projects in North Western Australia and to ship the energy out stored in hydrogen. Never mind that using hydrogen for that purpose is not a commercial proposition as of yet, or that the project is literally in the middle of no where. The designated area is between the towns of Port Hedland and Broome which have permanent populations of about 14,000 each - by far the largest towns in the region - and by between, I don't mean a polite 15 minute drive or so.. I'm talking about hours of driving. Port Hedland in turn is about two hours flying time North of the state capital Perth (2.1 million). To get the energy out transmission lines just aren't going to cut it, so maybe they could transmit the power to Eighty Mile Beach, which is a caravan park for those who want to visit a wetlands of international importance (oh no!). I would call it a swamp with a few birdies, but there are those who would disagree. The project map seems to indicate that they want to build a port in this environmentally sensitive area for pumping hydrogen into ships. Its not likely anyone's going to object, right? Then there is the little matter of finding customers for this hydrogen. Supporters say that the H2 can be injected into natural gas up to about 3 per cent of the mix, although there is still the little matter of why anyone would want to mix expensive H2 with cheap gas for a small reduction in emissions.. Any other suggestions? 4 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boat + 1,325 RG October 28, 2020 In a more practical sense the fact that around 50% of Americans make less than $30,000 will be a bigger problem going to EV’s. I have yet to read of an electric car that will transport a family of four for less than 10,000 which is what many of these folks drive. 7 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfurter + 562 ff October 28, 2020 17 minutes ago, Boat said: In a more practical sense the fact that around 50% of Americans make less than $30,000 will be a bigger problem going to EV’s. I have yet to read of an electric car that will transport a family of four for less than 10,000 which is what many of these folks drive. well stated. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, markslawson said: We've all seen bizarre suggestions concerning hydrogen, electric cars, renewable energy and so on. I thought we might compile a few of them. For me the top two picks would have to be .. 1 - After a period of rolling blackouts in California, Governor Newsom does not declare the state will fix the problem by building or encouraging more firm power generation. Instead he declares that the state will put an already struggling grid under more pressure by pledging to ban petrol car sales in the state by 2035 - effectively boosting electric car sales. This is just a token, of course. In 15 years, Newsom will be a memory, and his policy announcement forgotten. If it ever was implemented, the only important result of the policy would be to kill off the new car market in California. Those who want petrol cars will turn to the used car market or go across the state border to buy. However, the symbolism is entertaining. Never mind reality, let's make a policy statement that will make our nutty supporter base happy. 2 - Hydrogen making project. The Asian Renewable Energy Project, a consortium of companies in the renewable energy field, proposes dropping around $A30 billion ($US21.3 billion) building a heap of renewable energy projects in North Western Australia and to ship the energy out stored in hydrogen. Never mind that using hydrogen for that purpose is not a commercial proposition as of yet, or that the project is literally in the middle of no where. The designated area is between the towns of Port Hedland and Broome which have permanent populations of about 14,000 each - by far the largest towns in the region - and by between, I don't mean a polite 15 minute drive or so.. I'm talking about hours of driving. Port Hedland in turn is about two hours flying time North of the state capital Perth (2.1 million). To get the energy out transmission lines just aren't going to cut it, so maybe they could transmit the power to Eighty Mile Beach, which is a caravan park for those who want to visit a wetlands of international importance (oh no!). I would call it a swamp with a few birdies, but there are those who would disagree. The project map seems to indicate that they want to build a port in this environmentally sensitive area for pumping hydrogen into ships. Its not likely anyone's going to object, right? Then there is the little matter of finding customers for this hydrogen. Supporters say that the H2 can be injected into natural gas up to about 3 per cent of the mix, although there is still the little matter of why anyone would want to mix expensive H2 with cheap gas for a small reduction in emissions.. Any other suggestions? 1. The period of rolling blackouts lasted 2 hours and affected 1% of the population. A growing pain now being solved with more battery storage that is under construction. The US state of New Jersey is joining California in the ban and you can bet that the 12 other CARB states will join soon enough. Boris Johnson of the UK has also announced a ban on gas car sales in 2035. Further, the ban is on new ICE cars only, used ICE will remain for a while. Regardless, this gives us decades to work out the grid and charging. From wiki here are many of the proposed bans Country Ban announced Status and proposed commencement Scope Details Austria 2016 2020 (government plan)[29] [needs update] Non-electric New vehicle sales[29] Norway 2017 2025 (tax and usage incentives)[43] Diesel, petrol All cars Belgium 2020 2026[30] Diesel, Petrol New company cars Israel 2018 2030[20] Diesel, petrol New imported vehicles Germany 2016 2030 (Bundesrat decision)[38] Emitting New car sales[38] Iceland 2018 2030 (climate plan)[39] Diesel, petrol New car sales Netherlands 2017 2030 (coalition agreement)[42] Diesel, petrol All cars Sweden 2018 2030 (coalition agreement)[47] Diesel, petrol New car sales Slovenia 2017 2030 (emission limit of 50 g/km)[45] Diesel, petrol New car sales Ireland 2019 2030 (government bill)[41] Diesel, petrol New car sales[41] India 2017 2030 (government target)[40] Non-electric All vehicles[40] Denmark 2018 2030–35[36] Diesel, petrol New vehicle sales (2030), all vehicle use (2035).[36] United Kingdom 2020 2030,[49] 2035 (hybrid)[50] Emitting New car sales California 2020 2035[31] Emitting New vehicle sales Egypt 2018 2040[2] ICE[note 2] New vehicle sales[2] Spain 2018 2040[2] ICE New vehicle sales[2] Sri Lanka 2017 2040[46] Diesel, petrol All vehicles Taiwan 2017 2040[48] Diesel, petrol All bus use (2030), all motorcycle sales (2035), all car sales (2040).[48] Canada 2017 2040 (climate plan)[32] Emitting New vehicle sales France 2017 2040 (climate plan)[37] Diesel, petrol New car sales Singapore 2020 2040 (incentives on electric vehicles)[44] Diesel, petrol All vehicles Costa Rica 2019 2050[34][35] Diesel, petrol New car sales China 2017 researching a timetable[33] Diesel, petrol New car sales Seems like it might be a trend... Edited October 28, 2020 by Jay McKinsey 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 35 minutes ago, Boat said: In a more practical sense the fact that around 50% of Americans make less than $30,000 will be a bigger problem going to EV’s. I have yet to read of an electric car that will transport a family of four for less than 10,000 which is what many of these folks drive. there aren't any new ICE cars for $10K that will do this either, the vehicles of which you speak are all used.. The ban is just on new car sales so the used car market for ICE will maintain until used EV take over. 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boat + 1,325 RG October 28, 2020 (edited) Do the math. Since average car in the US is over 10 years old there is a huge market of old vehicles. When these mandates become due I don’t think the numbers of will be there even if the demand is. One case the Dems just didn’t think it through. We’ll see in 10 years just how big a problem this will be. Edited October 28, 2020 by Boat 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 14 minutes ago, Boat said: Do the math. Since average car in the US is over 10 years old there is a huge market of old vehicles. When these mandates become due I don’t think the numbers of will be there even if the demand is. One case the Dems just didn’t think it through. We’ll see in 10 years just how big a problem this will be. We only need to produce as many new ev's per year as there are currently new ice and over the course of twenty years from the date that happens the entire used ice fleet will be replaced. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 The US state of New York is considering joining California by launching their own phase-out of gas-fueled vehicles by 2035. This is what state senator Pete Harckham hopes to achieve with legislation S.9008 to amend the state Environmental Conservation Law. Vehicles affected by the gas phase-out in 2035 would include cars and trucks, as well as off-road vehicles and equipment. An additional deadline would be set for medium-duty and heavy-duty vehicles to be banned from sales by 2045. https://www.electrive.com/2020/10/12/new-york-state-considers-combustion-vehicle-ban-in-2035/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,194 October 28, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Boat said: In a more practical sense the fact that around 50% of Americans make less than $30,000 will be a bigger problem going to EV’s. I have yet to read of an electric car that will transport a family of four for less than 10,000 which is what many of these folks drive. $10k? Hell NO! I have never paid more than $3000 for any of my vehicles and that was a Truck for work... Hell, I just picked up an entire Propane tank truck, with tank no less and ALL the fittings, safety features, which runs for $700. To fix it all I had to do was fix the carburetor. I now have a 2500 gallon propane tank which can not only fill my tanks, but my neighbors tanks as well(if they bring them to me as it is not road legal with the propane tank on back without permits, insurance etc. Oh yea, and I get to buy propane at $1.14/gallon and it looks like next load will come in at $0.87/gallon... Suburban propane was charging me $2.25 or so and they would not fill up the small tanks to run certain other things which forced a trip and paying $4/gallon.... One tank fill made me money(barely) and 2nd tank fill is all gravy. OH yea, a normal 2000 gallon tank to or even a 1000 gallon tank to install on your property will set you back over $2000 if you do the work yourself and if you hire it out, over $3000. Hrmm, anyone want to buy/free a 1945 galleon road grader, 40,000lb machine(it runs no brakes), you pick it up for free... 😃 Washington state, west side in case you are interested... I inherited it and scrap price is... yea, cost of cutting it up will cost more than cost of heavy bulk steel especially when one factors in the hauling costs. Had it in heavy machinery craigslist etc, but no takers... Hrmm I wonder why... Edited October 28, 2020 by footeab@yahoo.com 1 1 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markslawson + 1,061 ML October 28, 2020 4 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: The period of rolling blackouts lasted 2 hours and affected 1% of the population. A growing pain now being solved with more battery storage that is under construction. The US state of New Jersey is joining California in the ban and you can bet that the 12 other CARB states will join soon enough. Boris Johnson of the UK has also announced a ban on gas car sales in 2035. Jay - its probably better that you don't try to defend this nonsense. I won't bother to respond to declarations about what governments say they will do in 15 years or more than three electoral cycles from now.. Instead why don't you try to think of green nonsense and post that.. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, markslawson said: Jay - its probably better that you don't try to defend this nonsense. I won't bother to respond to declarations about what governments say they will do in 15 years or more than three electoral cycles from now.. Instead why don't you try to think of green nonsense and post that.. It does seem that you started this thread by responding to declarations about what a government will do in 15 years. I guess I win. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0R0 + 6,251 October 28, 2020 5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: 1. The period of rolling blackouts lasted 2 hours and affected 1% of the population. A growing pain now being solved with more battery storage that is under construction. The US state of New Jersey is joining California in the ban and you can bet that the 12 other CARB states will join soon enough. Boris Johnson of the UK has also announced a ban on gas car sales in 2035. Further, the ban is on new ICE cars only, used ICE will remain for a while. Regardless, this gives us decades to work out the grid and charging. From wiki here are many of the proposed bans Country Ban announced Status and proposed commencement Scope Details Austria 2016 2020 (government plan)[29] [needs update] Non-electric New vehicle sales[29] Norway 2017 2025 (tax and usage incentives)[43] Diesel, petrol All cars Belgium 2020 2026[30] Diesel, Petrol New company cars Israel 2018 2030[20] Diesel, petrol New imported vehicles Germany 2016 2030 (Bundesrat decision)[38] Emitting New car sales[38] Iceland 2018 2030 (climate plan)[39] Diesel, petrol New car sales Netherlands 2017 2030 (coalition agreement)[42] Diesel, petrol All cars Sweden 2018 2030 (coalition agreement)[47] Diesel, petrol New car sales Slovenia 2017 2030 (emission limit of 50 g/km)[45] Diesel, petrol New car sales Ireland 2019 2030 (government bill)[41] Diesel, petrol New car sales[41] India 2017 2030 (government target)[40] Non-electric All vehicles[40] Denmark 2018 2030–35[36] Diesel, petrol New vehicle sales (2030), all vehicle use (2035).[36] United Kingdom 2020 2030,[49] 2035 (hybrid)[50] Emitting New car sales California 2020 2035[31] Emitting New vehicle sales Egypt 2018 2040[2] ICE[note 2] New vehicle sales[2] Spain 2018 2040[2] ICE New vehicle sales[2] Sri Lanka 2017 2040[46] Diesel, petrol All vehicles Taiwan 2017 2040[48] Diesel, petrol All bus use (2030), all motorcycle sales (2035), all car sales (2040).[48] Canada 2017 2040 (climate plan)[32] Emitting New vehicle sales France 2017 2040 (climate plan)[37] Diesel, petrol New car sales Singapore 2020 2040 (incentives on electric vehicles)[44] Diesel, petrol All vehicles Costa Rica 2019 2050[34][35] Diesel, petrol New car sales China 2017 researching a timetable[33] Diesel, petrol New car sales Seems like it might be a trend... There are many issues involved that are neither climate change nor economic. Israel stands out as needing relief from terrible smog. Same for Cal's LA basin. But doesn't apply to the rest of the state. EU is trying to extract itself from a geopolitical hole of being stuck with the need to get energy from Russia or the US/Gulf states or Gulf oil with their own navies (mostly on the drawing board) for security. They are trying to create a recycling economy so that with renewable energy and recycled metals they can afford not to have imperial navies, nor be beholden for the US or Russia, as the US is not willing to protect EU shipping for free forever. It was clear way before Trump, as soon as Germany unified. UK went both ways and did build a navy. Costa Rica is sunny and it is economical to go EV+solar+batteries. Other countries face the same geopolitical issue as the EU and are doing the same, but may be less willing to accept the reality. China is one that is calculating EVs powered by coal vs. paying US to protect its oil. Or becoming more beholden to Russia and its energy as political tool unreliability. The basic US demand from EU and others is a tilt of the mercantile table in favor of the US (e.g. if you have a 25% VAT than the US will have a 25% tariff.) or face surcharge payments on their trade in and out of Europe. Europeans are well aware that without artificial impediments to industry and finance, US would easily end up as it did in 1950 with 80% of the world's gold. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, 0R0 said: There are many issues involved that are neither climate change nor economic. Israel stands out as needing relief from terrible smog. Same for Cal's LA basin. But doesn't apply to the rest of the state. EU is trying to extract itself from a geopolitical hole of being stuck with the need to get energy from Russia or the US/Gulf states or Gulf oil with their own navies (mostly on the drawing board) for security. They are trying to create a recycling economy so that with renewable energy and recycled metals they can afford not to have imperial navies, nor be beholden for the US or Russia, as the US is not willing to protect EU shipping for free forever. It was clear way before Trump, as soon as Germany unified. UK went both ways and did build a navy. Costa Rica is sunny and it is economical to go EV+solar+batteries. Other countries face the same geopolitical issue as the EU and are doing the same, but may be less willing to accept the reality. China is one that is calculating EVs powered by coal vs. paying US to protect its oil. Or becoming more beholden to Russia and its energy as political tool unreliability. The basic US demand from EU and others is a tilt of the mercantile table in favor of the US (e.g. if you have a 25% VAT than the US will have a 25% tariff.) or face surcharge payments on their trade in and out of Europe. Europeans are well aware that without artificial impediments to industry and finance, US would easily end up as it did in 1950 with 80% of the world's gold. The one thing I will object to here is your characterization of CA smog. 1,2,4,6 and 8 are not in the LA Basin: Most-polluted metro areas by average year-round concentration of PM2.5 Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Bakersfield, CA Fairbanks, AK Visalia, CA Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA Pittsburgh-New Castle-Weirton, PA-OH-WV El Centro, CA Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Medford-Grants Pass, OR And by ozone 2,3,4,5,6,8 are not in the LA Basin Most-polluted cities by ozone pollution Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA Visalia, CA Bakersfield, CA Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Sacramento-Roseville, CA San Diego-Chula Vista-Carlsbad, CA Phoenix-Mesa, AZ San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA Houston-The Woodlands, TX New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA Edited October 28, 2020 by Jay McKinsey 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0R0 + 6,251 October 28, 2020 CA does have a reason to go EV outside the LA basin, similar problem to Israel with smog. But they have not setup to supply the juice yet. Nor will it be there in time for their scheduled ICE free plan. The storage is still in prototype stage but for Tesla and clones. The solar capacity is not keeping up 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, 0R0 said: CA does have a reason to go EV outside the LA basin, similar problem to Israel with smog. But they have not setup to supply the juice yet. Nor will it be there in time for their scheduled ICE free plan. The storage is still in prototype stage but for Tesla and clones. The solar capacity is not keeping up 2035 is 15 years away and that is just for new car sales. We will still have ICE until 2050. We are doing just fine for being 100% renewable in 30 years. We were at 46% renewable last year and going fully EV will increase electrical usage by only around 20%. Edited October 28, 2020 by Jay McKinsey 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP October 28, 2020 8 hours ago, markslawson said: Any other suggestions? Isnt this crazy enough for you Mark? https://thefederalist.com/2019/02/07/ten-most-insane-requirements-green-new-deal/ 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guy Daley + 49 October 28, 2020 11 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: $10k? Hell NO! I have never paid more than $3000 for any of my vehicles and that was a Truck for work... Hell, I just picked up an entire Propane tank truck, with tank no less and ALL the fittings, safety features, which runs for $700. To fix it all I had to do was fix the carburetor. I now have a 2500 gallon propane tank which can not only fill my tanks, but my neighbors tanks as well(if they bring them to me as it is not road legal with the propane tank on back without permits, insurance etc. Oh yea, and I get to buy propane at $1.14/gallon and it looks like next load will come in at $0.87/gallon... Suburban propane was charging me $2.25 or so and they would not fill up the small tanks to run certain other things which forced a trip and paying $4/gallon.... One tank fill made me money(barely) and 2nd tank fill is all gravy. OH yea, a normal 2000 gallon tank to or even a 1000 gallon tank to install on your property will set you back over $2000 if you do the work yourself and if you hire it out, over $3000. Hrmm, anyone want to buy/free a 1945 galleon road grader, 40,000lb machine(it runs no brakes), you pick it up for free... 😃 Washington state, west side in case you are interested... I inherited it and scrap price is... yea, cost of cutting it up will cost more than cost of heavy bulk steel especially when one factors in the hauling costs. Had it in heavy machinery craigslist etc, but no takers... Hrmm I wonder why... Brilliant move on that purchase. You just happened to be in the right place at the right time and that asset will pay dividends for as long as you have it. OUTSTANDING investment. congrats. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boat + 1,325 RG October 28, 2020 By all means let’s all drive propane trucks for $700. Personally I gave up owning a vehicle and have everything delivered. When needed I seem to be good at finding a ride. I usually pay my ride a meal and have some fun conversation to boot. 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 October 28, 2020 17 hours ago, Boat said: Do the math. Since average car in the US is over 10 years old there is a huge market of old vehicles. When these mandates become due I don’t think the numbers of will be there even if the demand is. One case the Dems just didn’t think it through. We’ll see in 10 years just how big a problem this will be. The mandate is only for California and probably will not be accepted by the public. It will likely be changed to a longer time frame and only for small cars. Not large SUVs or trucks. Natural gas makes more sense for the existing fleet. They can be converted and would last longer. Used cars can be imported from 49 states. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 October 28, 2020 12 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: The one thing I will object to here is your characterization of CA smog. 1,2,4,6 and 8 are not in the LA Basin: Most-polluted metro areas by average year-round concentration of PM2.5 Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Bakersfield, CA Fairbanks, AK Visalia, CA Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA Pittsburgh-New Castle-Weirton, PA-OH-WV El Centro, CA Cleveland-Akron-Canton, OH Medford-Grants Pass, OR And by ozone 2,3,4,5,6,8 are not in the LA Basin Most-polluted cities by ozone pollution Los Angeles-Long Beach, CA Visalia, CA Bakersfield, CA Fresno-Madera-Hanford, CA Sacramento-Roseville, CA San Diego-Chula Vista-Carlsbad, CA Phoenix-Mesa, AZ San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA Houston-The Woodlands, TX New York-Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA All of the above should be focused on natural gas vehicles in addition to electric. They all have plentiful natural gas available. That would be a realistic plan and the existing worldwide fleet could be converted as desired. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 October 28, 2020 12 hours ago, 0R0 said: CA does have a reason to go EV outside the LA basin, similar problem to Israel with smog. But they have not setup to supply the juice yet. Nor will it be there in time for their scheduled ICE free plan. The storage is still in prototype stage but for Tesla and clones. The solar capacity is not keeping up Natural gas vehicle technology and the fuel is readily available. Being held back by the green religion. https://www.ngvamerica.org/fuel/ngv-station-map/#/find/nearest?fuel=CNG, LNG 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 October 28, 2020 12 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: 2035 is 15 years away and that is just for new car sales. We will still have ICE until 2050. We are doing just fine for being 100% renewable in 30 years. We were at 46% renewable last year and going fully EV will increase electrical usage by only around 20%. Not including trucks, ships, airplanes, etc. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, ronwagn said: Not including trucks, ships, airplanes, etc. The ban on diesel trucks is set for 2045. It will be phased in: But just 10 years from now, half of all new trucks and vans sold in California in classes 4 through 8—which includes everything from the package delivery van to the biggest garbage trucks—will have to be ZEVs. And by 2035, CARB says that 55 percent of all class 2b-3 trucks, 75 percent of all class 4 through 6 trucks and vans, and 40 percent of all class 7 and 8 trucks and tractors sold in the state have to be ZEVs. Edited October 28, 2020 by Jay McKinsey 1 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ronwagn + 6,290 October 28, 2020 13 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said: 2035 is 15 years away and that is just for new car sales. We will still have ICE until 2050. We are doing just fine for being 100% renewable in 30 years. We were at 46% renewable last year and going fully EV will increase electrical usage by only around 20%. 46% of renewable what? Are you including hydro etc.? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jay McKinsey + 1,491 October 28, 2020 Just now, ronwagn said: 46% of renewable what? Are you including hydro etc.? Yes I am including hydro. https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/2019-total-system-electric-generation 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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