tesla a In 2020, we produced and delivered half a million cars.

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Well nutter, maybe next time you will read what someone wrote instead of making up what you wish...

Vast difference between: A composite of daily highs and lows and daily high verses daily low 

Do you always feel it necessary to add in insults to anyone who states a different view from your own? 

Edited January 10, 2021 by NickW

[markslawson + 1,057]

13 hours ago, NickW said:

390,000 barrels of oil for 5 million vehicles. 

Remind me what the global fleet of cars is?

You sound like the horse breeders in 1900 confident that the car would never catch on

Google search says there are 1.4 billion cars in the world so 5 million - you said 500,000 initially - is less than half of one per cent. And freight road transports accounts for something half of total oil consumption.. depending on the country .. So its less than half of one per cent of half of the market.. Like I said absolutely nothing.. And that number has been bought with substantial government support.. I'll keep my horse and buggy ICE for the moment..  

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

4 hours ago, Dan Clemmensen said:

Right now, EVs are designed for electrical efficiency, not cost minimization. This means they used very expensive motors and batteries. But s batteries get better, there will probably be a better cheaper alternative than Li-ion, and that means that a cheaper for less-efficient motor may make sense for the low-end cars., while high-end cars will still have high-performance motors. You can build an induction motor with no permanent magnets (no nickel, no cobalt). It will be heavier, less efficient, and a lot less expensive. You will need maybe 1.5 times as much battery to achieve the same performance, but if those batteries cost half as much as current batteries, the trade-off may make sense.

All other battery types do not have the energy density for a desired automobile.  Why they are using NMC or a form of it such as Lithium Manganese Nickel which uses slightly less nickel being substituted with some Manganese.  Most batteries used in most applications are this type.  I believe last I read was ~80%

While Lithium Iron Phosphate has EXCELLENT long life, its energy density is poor so any car made from said batteries will be range limited and likewise this battery type cannot be charged when it is below freezing(requires internal heater) and does not like high temps either(hurts its life expectancy) and requires more cooling, but then so does NMC. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

5 minutes ago, NickW said:

Do you always feel it necessary to add in insults to anyone who states a different view your own? 

Well, I was just quoting you...

[markslawson + 1,057]

8 hours ago, NickW said:

500,000 cars in one year. One manufacturer

Nick - then compare the figure with the number of conventional and hybrid cars produced in one year.. another Google search says 92 million produced world wide including 2.1 million EVs .. so there you go, you're up to maybe 2.5 per cent of the new car market.. still nothing compared to the overall world car fleet but better than the argument you had before. However, as previously noted everything depends on government policies.. otherwise its a niche product.. anyway, that was fun leave it with you.. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

8 hours ago, NickW said:

The wealth of modern industrial nations is not really dependent on owning large quantities of natural resources. Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Switzerland, Austria are good examples of this.

Well no, because those nations are part of an alliance structure which allows resource rich countries to export to resource poor countries.  Cut those resources off if/when alliance structure disappears and those "modern resource poor industrial nations" will go back to the stoneage. 

PS: Singapore?  Really? The most important geographical location on the planet; talk about natural resource rich 

[Dan Clemmensen + 1,011]

1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

All other battery types do not have the energy density for a desired automobile.  Why they are using NMC or a form of it such as Lithium Manganese Nickel which uses slightly less nickel being substituted with some Manganese.  Most batteries used in most applications are this type.  I believe last I read was ~80%

While Lithium Iron Phosphate has EXCELLENT long life, its energy density is poor so any car made from said batteries will be range limited and likewise this battery type cannot be charged when it is below freezing(requires internal heater) and does not like high temps either(hurts its life expectancy) and requires more cooling, but then so does NMC. 

I'm looking a bit further out. Sure, every week there is a press release about some magic new battery chemistry, most of which go nowhere, but the one that looks most promising to me is the sodium-ion battery. It depends on a carbon electrode with a particular structure miss-named "hard carbon". No lithium, cobalt or nickel, and you can use aluminum instead of copper (which is not possible with lithium). Power and energy density per kg now equal or exceed Li-ion, but this is in the lab, not the real world, so we'll see how it works out. With no expensive materials, the cost should be very low. This would in turn enable the use of cheap induction motors (no nickel or cobalt) instead of expensive permanent magnet motors. The expensive high-performance batteries and motors would still be used in expensive high-performance EVs, just as expensive high-performance engines and expensive high octane gas are used in high-performance ICE cars.

[BHarathhhhhh 0]

Seems people got triggered by your question. Half million EV's will save around 60-100 million barrels in a year.

Also, for a country like india EV's are better then diesel, coz we can produce energy inhouse using coal, solar or wind etc.. but petrol/diesel we have to spend lot of forex money to import them.

I am not that much concerned about pollution for now.

[Rob Kramer + 696]

Wow I wrote a huge reply and hit a link by accident and now ots gone.  

Watch my link on pg1 it clearly explains it all thats why its an hr. 

At 10L/100km 20,000km / yr is 5.5L/d so per year of 500k EV would remove 17.1k barrels/day of 100% gasoline (because its 100% oil .... all is used somewhere) and plus fluids mabey 17.2 being generous.  

Don't worry USA lost 2.1M barrels/D in 2020 so 500k EV is .8% of that. 

So 2020 just afforded us 122 years of tesla selling 500k/yr. Even parabolic growth eliminate that supply loss in 10 years. Sell your EV i don't give a hoot. Just don't tax me for lies. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Rob Kramer

[NickW + 2,714]

8 hours ago, BHarathhhhhh said:

Seems people got triggered by your question. Half million EV's will save around 60-100 million barrels in a year.

Also, for a country like india EV's are better then diesel, coz we can produce energy inhouse using coal, solar or wind etc.. but petrol/diesel we have to spend lot of forex money to import them.

I am not that much concerned about pollution for now.

I agree with your first two sentences. The 2nd is nail on the head. 

In regard to the last consider the health dividend for Indians in urban areas if pollution was reduced. 

[NickW + 2,714]

11 hours ago, markslawson said:

Nick - then compare the figure with the number of conventional and hybrid cars produced in one year.. another Google search says 92 million produced world wide including 2.1 million EVs .. so there you go, you're up to maybe 2.5 per cent of the new car market.. still nothing compared to the overall world car fleet but better than the argument you had before. However, as previously noted everything depends on government policies.. otherwise its a niche product.. anyway, that was fun leave it with you.. 

I can recall similar arguments 15 years ago that wind and solar would never even provide 1% of global electricity supply....

As with renewables EV's are rapidly gaining the benefit of volume to drive costs down. Battery costs, the main cost obstacle are falling too. 

In the short to medium term I agree that Hybrids will be the predominant shift in vehicle fleets . Long term it will be EV's . Personally I think hydrogen is a dead duck (other than blended into NG supply). Heavy vehicle fleets may switch over to NG which will keep RonW happy

[markslawson + 1,057]

12 hours ago, NickW said:

In the short to medium term I agree that Hybrids will be the predominant shift in vehicle fleets . Long term it will be EV's . Personally I think hydrogen is a dead duck (other than blended into NG supply).

We can agree there .. although it will continue to be hybrids, as they just don't have the same consumer resistance and don't require the same government support. I can't see EVs doing much.. but anyway, that's the point to wind up the debate and move on.. 

[Boat + 1,323]

The Tesla numbers are in. There was some debate on if you make them that does not mean delivered them.

2020......509,723 produced......499,550 delivered.

4th qt.....179,757 produced.....189,570 delivered.

It appears Tesla has no problem selling cars.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Boat

[Guy Daley + 49]

On 1/9/2021 at 11:38 AM, Dan Clemmensen said:

Tesla has a weird production and sales model. They really did deliver all of those cars to customers. First, they do not have dealers with "auto sales lots". Instead, they take orders directly from customers. Cars are (mostly) produced after an order has been placed. Next, during each quarter, Tesla builds card for long-distance shipment early in the quarter so those cars can be delivered before the end of the quarter: These include cars with European charging sockets. Toward the end of the quarter, cars for closer customers are built and shipped. The very last cars off the production line in the quarter are often driven off the production line directly to customers in Northern California.

Sorry, I don't believe their numbers.  If you want to because you're a Tesla stock owner, good for you, that's your problem.  Tesla LOST two CFOs in a row.  They quit shortly after being hired.  There is only ONE reason for that.  They didn't want to be criminally responsible for fudging the numbers Musk wants broadcast to the the world.  

Secondly, Zerohedge, for whatever reason has a hardon on for Tesla and they print every single last incident where a Tesla blows up or catches on fire because of it's batteries = lots of lawsuits.  Maybe you don't know about this because you don't want to, but surely it must have an impact on sales.

Thirdly, Tesla has backtracked on their warranty for various workmanship issues.  They used to have a policy where you could return the car with no questions asked within a certain period.  That's been removed from their website.  

Fourthly, I'm sure they bought and paid for their auditor just like Enron did.  Arthur Anderson WAS one of the five largest auditing and accountancy partnerships in the WORLD.  They folded after Enron collapsed.  However, Tesla's Ponzi is far more sophisticated as it's intertwined with the global climate scam and somehow they seem to be making profits only because they get carbon credits, some sort of accounting scheme I have no idea how it works.  

No, they really didn't deliver all of those cars to customers.  If they'd lied to you, how would know it?  Like the j2ckass that I blocked said, he sees EVs all around him.  PROBABLY because he's biased and is invested in the industry.  Who doesn't tout whatever industry they are vested in?  

We now live in a world of lies to promote various agendas.  Election fraud is a conspiracy.  Climate change is the truth, Gore said so.  Racism is systemic, our political leaders have told us so and EVs, particularly Tesla is selling like hotcakes, his net worth is the ONLY thing we need to know to back this up.  
 

 

 

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, markslawson said:

We can agree there .. although it will continue to be hybrids, as they just don't have the same consumer resistance and don't require the same government support. I can't see EVs doing much.. but anyway, that's the point to wind up the debate and move on.. 

Our next car in a year or two will be a Toyota Hybrid Estate. The car is made in the UK and I can get one brand new at a discounted rate. I wish they did a PHEV version but no such model.

Thought about an EV but as a family we need one main family car  and a runabout. The range & size of the EV's we are prepared to pay for are too low. Our current family car is the older version 'Corolla'  Hybrid so that will end up being relegated to runabout. The other option is sell it and buy a second hand EV as runabout (Leaf or Renault Zoe). However with my wifes driving skills the bumpers / bodywork look like  a blind cobblers thumb so I prefer to keep our cars and run them into the ground as resale values are pitiful. 

This works out cheaper for us and the saved money is reinvested in home energy efficiency. The next two projects are triple glazing to replace our 30 year old double glazing and insulating under the upper floor wall cladding. From a CO2 footprint thats a better option. 

[NickW + 2,714]

10 hours ago, Boat said:

The Tesla numbers are in. There was some debate on if you make them that does not mean delivered them.

2020......509,723 produced......499,550 delivered.

4th qt.....179,757 produced.....189,570 delivered.

It appears Tesla has no problem selling cars.

Delivered to where though? 

A big warehouse in Area 51? 😉

[Wombat + 1,028]

On 1/5/2021 at 7:11 AM, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Indo is not even in the top 5 countries of Nickel reserves. 

If Musk actually wanted Nickel: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/11/protests-erupt-in-new-caledonia-over-proposed-sale-of-major-nickel-mine

If Nickel were truly desired quickly on a massive scale everyone would be heading to Australia, Russia, Brazil, New Caledonia, Philippines.  They are not.  Why?  Because those countries actually require proper, semi proper, environmental regulations, where as Indo does not give a Shit about long term consequences.  So, New Caledonia just shuttered their gargantuan Nickel mines due to new Environmental regulations(Part of French Empire).  Philippines just shelved 50% of their Nickel output due to environmental regulations.

No ONE is WILLING to pay for the environment.  Shocker. Who knew?

Certainly not the hypocrites claiming they are buying EV's for the environment. 

And it takes a decade to bring a giant new mine online. It is not one new mine that is required but rather a hundred of them if not a thousand if the world claims are to be met in actually going for EV everything.

That is why we need H2 and more nuclear and Hydro. Speaking of which, China is about to build the worlds biggest hydro plant on the Brahmaputra river. The canyon is nearly twice as deep as the Grand Canyon and the power out will be 80 GW, ie 40 coal-fired power stations. Absolutely mind-boggling. China will have control of part of India's water supply, and most that of Bangladesh. Same as with the Mekong, they control water supply of Vietnam, Laos, and Thailand. Then there is the mega-project in Ethiopia, on the Blue Nile, where they are in dispute with Egypt and Sudan.

Getting back to H2 and nuclear, Russia is about to start producing "Yellow H2" ie: use nuclear power for electrolysis. Sounds smart to me

[NickW + 2,714]

16 minutes ago, Wombat said:

That is why we need H2 and more nuclear and Hydro. Speaking of which, China is about to build the worlds biggest hydro plant on the Brahmaputra river. The canyon is nearly twice as deep as the Grand Canyon and the power out will be 80 GW, ie 40 coal-fired power stations. Absolutely mind-boggling. China will have control of part of India's water supply, and most that of Bangladesh. Same as with the Mekong, they control water supply of Vietnam, Laos, and Thailand. Then there is the mega-project in Ethiopia, on the Blue Nile, where they are in dispute with Egypt and Sudan.

Getting back to H2 and nuclear, Russia is about to start producing "Yellow H2" ie: use nuclear power for electrolysis. Sounds smart to me

If these schemes regulate the flow and are sympathetic to downstream agricultural needs  then the Chinese are potentially doing the other nations a favour. If they weaponise the flow then its a recipe for WW3. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

56 minutes ago, NickW said:

If these schemes regulate the flow and are sympathetic to downstream agricultural needs  then the Chinese are potentially doing the other nations a favour. If they weaponise the flow then its a recipe for WW3. 

Actually what the Chinese are doing are building gargantuan tunnels from Tibet, upper reaches of Yangtze river and then connect the Mekong and Selewan(Sp?) to the Xinjiang area which has prime farm land, but little water.  Uh, think Yuigyars but not so high, the giant ancient lake bed that long since dried up and is a desert/salt flat.  Vast area ~800m in elevation(so China would still get ALL of the hdyropower drop in their own territory) Also Gobi Desert area as well of Western Inner MOngolia.  If you already have the tunnel that close, then connecting the Brahmptura river as well. Why?  All 4 rivers have their major trunks within ~100 miles of each other in this corner of Tibet.  So, if you are blithly going to throw $$$/manpower at a 600mile tunnel, what is another 100miles to gain access to ALL the water and geopolitical power?  All downstream nations should be quivering in their boots as their water gets cut off.  https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2116750/chinese-engineers-plan-1000km-tunnel-make-xinjiang-desert-bloom

There is zero reason to believe the Chinese cannot do so.  They just blithly threw in a 700 miles giant canal for Beijing, what will they throw at food security?  The only drawback?  Tibetans, Yuigyars, and Mongolians, 2 of which are all in concentration camps and all conquered peoples who do not like the Chinese, and oh yea, everyone in SE Asia... Ah, but China could not import food at least and gets gargantuan amounts of Hydro power and has a nice side effect, SE Asia's balls in a vice...

2 birds, one stone, and firmly forces Western China to become HAN. 

Edit: Here is another link from India https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/china-plans-1-000-km-tunnel-to-carry-brahmaputra-water-from-tibet-to-xinjiang-report/story-QBmxl7rMgmd8UW6pKV7VSL.html

Edited January 11, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com

[NickW + 2,714]

19 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Actually what the Chinese are doing are building gargantuan tunnels from Tibet, upper reaches of Yangtze river and then connect the Mekong and Selewan(Sp?) to the Xinjiang area which has prime farm land, but little water.  Uh, think Yuigyars but not so high, the giant ancient lake bed that long since dried up and is a desert/salt flat.  Vast area ~800m in elevation(so China would still get ALL of the hdyropower drop in their own territory) Also Gobi Desert area as well of Western Inner MOngolia.  If you already have the tunnel that close, then connecting the Brahmptura river as well. Why?  All 4 rivers have their major trunks within ~100 miles of each other in this corner of Tibet.  So, if you are blithly going to throw $$$/manpower at a 600mile tunnel, what is another 100miles to gain access to ALL the water and geopolitical power?  All downstream nations should be quivering in their boots as their water gets cut off.  https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2116750/chinese-engineers-plan-1000km-tunnel-make-xinjiang-desert-bloom

There is zero reason to believe the Chinese cannot do so.  They just blithly threw in a 700 miles giant canal for Beijing, what will they throw at food security?  The only drawback?  Tibetans, Yuigyars, and Mongolians, 2 of which are all in concentration camps and all conquered peoples who do not like the Chinese, and oh yea, everyone in SE Asia... Ah, but China could not import food at least and gets gargantuan amounts of Hydro power and has a nice side effect, SE Asia's balls in a vice...

2 birds, one stone, and firmly forces Western China to become HAN. 

Edit: Here is another link from India https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/china-plans-1-000-km-tunnel-to-carry-brahmaputra-water-from-tibet-to-xinjiang-report/story-QBmxl7rMgmd8UW6pKV7VSL.html

If they attempt to starve India to death this will turn into WW3. India would have nothing to lose. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

5 minutes ago, NickW said:

If they attempt to starve India to death this will turn into WW3. India would have nothing to lose. 

Actually, it would do little to India as India does not need the water, rather they have way too much water.  NE India floods so massively they do not even have much agriculture up there even though it is PRIME farm land.  Open google maps turn on satellite view and see it for yourself.  This area has always fascinated me and one of my bucket list items of places to visit.  Due to monsoon season they can get dumps of 100 inches of rain in a month.  This would probably be a giant BOON to India since they can't be bothered to build their own dams... Most of the water in the Brahm is from inside India itself, not Tibet.  Bangladesh on the other hand this might be a problem, as silt would decrease since Bangladesh is sinking, they need all the silt they can get...

Edited January 11, 2021 by footeab@yahoo.com

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

8 minutes ago, NickW said:

If they attempt to starve India to death this will turn into WW3. India would have nothing to lose. 

Draining of the Selewan/Mekong as they are ALREADY doing on an entirely DIFFERNT mega giant long dam/tunnel project on the other hand or reaching out and grabbing the upper Indus rivers .... just might start WW3.

[NickW + 2,714]

2 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Draining of the Selewan/Mekong as they are ALREADY doing on an entirely DIFFERNT mega giant long dam/tunnel project on the other hand or reaching out and grabbing the upper Indus rivers .... just might start WW3.

Esp the Indus - Pakistan is a nuclear power and already suffers acute water shortages. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,187]

3 minutes ago, NickW said:

Esp the Indus - Pakistan is a nuclear power and already suffers acute water shortages. 

What PAK actually has is a shortage of vasectomies.  3.5 births/woman. 

[Hiten Shah + 22]

In India there is a Buzz Tata Motors has signed MOU with Tesla Motors for collaboration! This is HUGE ! Tata Power is india’s biggest privately owned power company. Tata group has all IT power Renewable Motors Batteries chemical companies. In short Tata has all resources and along with Tesla, India can overtake all in EV in coming years!