ronwagn

Micro Hydropower Systems Could Provide Energy Wherever Streams Flow All Year

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(edited)

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/buying-and-making-electricity/microhydropower-systems

microhydropower_system_0.gif?itok=M1F8GylB   

Apparently many small dams never considered any kind of hydroelectric equipment in their planning. It seems like many waterways could be more fully utilized for hydroelectricity. Especially the larger rivers and year round streams of all sizes, that includes the Mississipi, Missouri and others.  The equipment is now readily available and Green Electricity is preferred, so why not use it. The federal government is itching to spend money. Would this be a good idea? RCW

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-of-the-river_hydroelectricity

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Edited by ronwagn
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  The answer to "why not" do this more is because it damages the ecosystem and it is already illegal in many places.

 

Aquatic life requires dissolved oxygen. Fast-moving cold water has high levels of dissolved oxygen; cold water dissolves more oxygen and agitation provides air exposure. 

If you have many piped micro-hydro plants it slows the water down and warms it up thereby depleting oxygen levels.  During the hot dry summers many streams are barely supporting fish stocks as it is.  Water levels fall while simultaneously water temperature rises, farm irrigation and micro hydro makes this worse.

 

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1 hour ago, Symmetry said:

  The answer to "why not" do this more is because it damages the ecosystem and it is already illegal in many places.

 

Aquatic life requires dissolved oxygen. Fast-moving cold water has high levels of dissolved oxygen; cold water dissolves more oxygen and agitation provides air exposure. 

If you have many piped micro-hydro plants it slows the water down and warms it up thereby depleting oxygen levels.  During the hot dry summers many streams are barely supporting fish stocks as it is.  Water levels fall while simultaneously water temperature rises, farm irrigation and micro hydro makes this worse.

 

You are making a blanket statement with no references. I realize you know something about the subject, but there are pros and cons depending on the case involved. I was looking for more balanced views. For example, our largest rivers run cold most of the year. All dams have the same or similar effects that micro hydro does. Our rivers run from north to south, aside from one that I know of. 

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4 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

You are making a blanket statement with no references. I realize you know something about the subject, but there are pros and cons depending on the case involved. I was looking for more balanced views. For example, our largest rivers run cold most of the year. All dams have the same or similar effects that micro hydro does. Our rivers run from north to south, aside from one that I know of. 

I agree "micro hydro" should be allowed more on a case by case basis.

Edited by Symmetry
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We should have in-house micro hydro attached to sewage drains.

We "pumped" all that human waste and weight up.... might as well capture some of the potential energy of the sewage on the way down the drain.

The wasted energy from human food calories is enormous; several technologies are working on capturing it in various form.

There are backpacks that can charge your cellphone from the up-down vibration of your steps.

Watches that wind up from the motion of your arm exist.

Pacemakers that can re-charge themselves from the motion of the heart are developed and near release.

 

On a semi-related note speed bumps can now capture the energy of speeders...

 

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18 hours ago, Symmetry said:

  The answer to "why not" do this more is because it damages the ecosystem and it is already illegal in many places.

 

Aquatic life requires dissolved oxygen. Fast-moving cold water has high levels of dissolved oxygen; cold water dissolves more oxygen and agitation provides air exposure. 

If you have many piped micro-hydro plants it slows the water down and warms it up thereby depleting oxygen levels.  During the hot dry summers many streams are barely supporting fish stocks as it is.  Water levels fall while simultaneously water temperature rises, farm irrigation and micro hydro makes this worse.

 

This is blatantly false or at best horrifically misleading. 

Are we talking run of the river, or dams? 

Agitation WARMS up the streams in the summer, so slowing down the water will keep it COLDER.  The opposite of what you said.  The obvious example are all the dams which have created much colder rivers than "natural" as the water is much deeper on average and only the very surface warms up, but at night loses said heat quickly generally speaking.  Agitation does add oxygen, but here it depends on the species of aquatic life you want to thrive.  For instance Bass/Salmon do NOT want high oxygen levels. 

The problem with current streams during low water events during late summer has everything to do with high PHOSPHOROUS/NITROGEN/FUNGICIDES content from runoff of farms.  Has nothing to do with your postulate of micro hydro. 

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20 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Apparently many small dams never considered any kind of hydroelectric equipment in their planning. It seems like many waterways could be more fully utilized for hydroelectricity. Especially the larger rivers and year round streams of all sizes, that includes the Mississipi, Missouri and others.

Such projects would certainly produce power but at what cost? The Wikipedia article says that they can be built without a dam but that such projects still need a reasonably fast flowing river that has a drop to it - ie a river with rapids or waterfalls or whatever - basically part of the flow is diverted to drive a turbine.. in order words they are modern version of the waterwheels they used before steam.. hydro is the best form of energy but just how useful a lot of little projects would be is open to question.. 

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1 hour ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

This is blatantly false or at best horrifically misleading. 

Are we talking run of the river, or dams? 

Agitation WARMS up the streams in the summer, so slowing down the water will keep it COLDER.  The opposite of what you said.  The obvious example are all the dams which have created much colder rivers than "natural" as the water is much deeper on average and only the very surface warms up, but at night loses said heat quickly generally speaking.  Agitation does add oxygen, but here it depends on the species of aquatic life you want to thrive.  For instance Bass/Salmon do NOT want high oxygen levels. 

The problem with current streams during low water events during late summer has everything to do with high PHOSPHOROUS/NITROGEN/FUNGICIDES content from runoff of farms.  Has nothing to do with your postulate of micro hydro. 

The problem is still "borrowing" water; and the cause of damage is still warming / de-oxygenation which I admittedly poorly explained.

If you "borrow" water from a river the depth and flow-rate goes down between the intake and effluent points.

The portion of the river between the intake and effluent points suffers even if the intake and effluent water are of the exact same composition.

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The problem with the concept is environmental law, large waterways cannot be dammed without a act of congress, small waterways are protected under the same regulation, wildlife areas and drainage issues....As Trump once said in a speech decoded....this talk of windmill/wind

generators is 1600 yr old science. It is time to move on to fisson/fussion. Wind generation of power is as outdated as the horse and buggy.

 

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(edited)

23 hours ago, Symmetry said:

  The answer to "why not" do this more is because it damages the ecosystem and it is already illegal in many places.

 

Aquatic life requires dissolved oxygen. Fast-moving cold water has high levels of dissolved oxygen; cold water dissolves more oxygen and agitation provides air exposure. 

If you have many piped micro-hydro plants it slows the water down and warms it up thereby depleting oxygen levels.  During the hot dry summers many streams are barely supporting fish stocks as it is.  Water levels fall while simultaneously water temperature rises, farm irrigation and micro hydro makes this worse.

 

Actually, water discharge from Hydro plants leaves the plant slightly cooler than when it enters (you are extracting energy from it).  It's a small change, though (about 1 degree F +/-).

Edited by turbguy
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(edited)

2 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

The problem with the concept is environmental law, large waterways cannot be dammed without a act of congress, small waterways are protected under the same regulation, wildlife areas and drainage issues....As Trump once said in a speech decoded....this talk of windmill/wind

generators is 1600 yr old science. It is time to move on to fisson/fussion. Wind generation of power is as outdated as the horse and buggy.

 

Actually, wind is already fusion-powered, by the great gravity well 93 million or so miles away...

That said, wait until you see the cost of the first fusion boiler plant that finally makes more power than it uses to operate, particularly when you must discharge 50-60% of the energy generated to a heat sink.

I would rather put money on Small Modular HT Reactors.

BTW, horses still have transportation and work value for certain uses. Just don't let them step on your foot (OUCH!).

 

Edited by turbguy
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17 hours ago, turbguy said:

Actually, wind is already fusion-powered

 

Essentially all energy and matter on earth is from fusion.

Even our fission energy comes from past fusion.

We are stardust!

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8 minutes ago, Symmetry said:

Essentially all energy and matter on earth is from fusion.

Even our fission energy comes from past fusion.

We are stardust!

...and we humans are fusion powered, ourselves (assuming that the sun's primary energy source IS fusion, and not another undiscovered process dealing with dark matter/energy).

Edited by turbguy
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On 3/25/2021 at 5:43 AM, Symmetry said:

We should have in-house micro hydro attached to sewage drains.

We "pumped" all that human waste and weight up.... might as well capture some of the potential energy of the sewage on the way down the drain.

The wasted energy from human food calories is enormous; several technologies are working on capturing it in various form.

There are backpacks that can charge your cellphone from the up-down vibration of your steps.

Watches that wind up from the motion of your arm exist.

Pacemakers that can re-charge themselves from the motion of the heart are developed and near release.

 

On a semi-related note speed bumps can now capture the energy of speeders...

 

The problem with this is that sewage systems require velocity of flow to transfer the solids. Start putting turbines in that flow its going to act as a poo trap. 

Turbines on foul water sewers = daft idea. 

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1 hour ago, NickW said:

The problem with this is that sewage systems require velocity of flow to transfer the solids. Start putting turbines in that flow its going to act as a poo trap. 

Turbines on foul water sewers = daft idea. 

Good point, although after sewage goes through the system it gets pretty broken up. 

Unfortunately, I've done analysis on several forms of sewage (everything from raw, to partially treated to sludge solids).  Raw often just looks like turbid water.  The stuff they screen out is the real gross stuff (condoms, cigarette butts, tampons, etc.).  High end sewage treatment plants are very interesting to tour if you get the chance.

 

While I never envisioned turbines I could still see some energy capture system being possible. Imagine a sewage lift station that also partially treats the waste.  Incoming water is slowed by a type of water wheel, this allows greater settling of solids, the captured energy is then used to offset the energy cost of pumping up the now trash-reduced wastewater.   Just ideas...

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(edited)

52 minutes ago, Symmetry said:

Good point, although after sewage goes through the system it gets pretty broken up. 

Unfortunately, I've done analysis on several forms of sewage (everything from raw, to partially treated to sludge solids).  Raw often just looks like turbid water.  The stuff they screen out is the real gross stuff (condoms, cigarette butts, tampons, etc.).  High end sewage treatment plants are very interesting to tour if you get the chance.

 

While I never envisioned turbines I could still see some energy capture system being possible. Imagine a sewage lift station that also partially treats the waste.  Incoming water is slowed by a type of water wheel, this allows greater settling of solids, the captured energy is then used to offset the energy cost of pumping up the now trash-reduced wastewater.   Just ideas...

Having trained as an environmental health officer  almost 30 years ago I had the benefit of getting a guided tour around Londons Victorian sewers alongside the more classroom based study. Everything in sewers is designed around getting the sewage from point A to point B as swiftly as possible. This means nice smooth curves and channel / pipe designed to maximise velocity. 

One plant we had a look around was Bury (North of Manchester) which serves about a million people. Then 92/93 it had 4 stationary engines to burn the methane from the AD plant. The electricity ran the plant with a bit for export. The heat was used to keep the AD plant temperature just right. 

Edited by NickW
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On 3/26/2021 at 1:11 AM, Eyes Wide Open said:

Wind generation of power is as outdated as the horse and buggy.

Then why have multi billions been spent on doing just that?

487GW have been installed in the last decade.

Yes you can throw back political will to appease the greens/climate change brigade but that is still a vast amount of money invested!

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1596093/26-trillion-spent-renewables-last-decade

I hardly think that wind energy is outdated or solar for that matter (and that's been around for a few billion years too)

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8 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Then why have multi billions been spent on doing just that?

487GW have been installed in the last decade.

Yes you can throw back political will to appease the greens/climate change brigade but that is still a vast amount of money invested!

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1596093/26-trillion-spent-renewables-last-decade

I hardly think that wind energy is outdated or solar for that matter (and that's been around for a few billion years 

 

Interesting question that needs input. So In order to energize the conversation perhaps let us start by adding some fuel to the fire up this conversation.

Let us start with green energy in itself, since 2008 the US has invested over two trillion dollars into green energy theory.

Today that investment has produced  rolling blackouts in states that employ such strategies ,and a law suits in Texas that will in up in costs billions and billions of dollars and no definitive answers.

Today we have a corporation that exists soley due to gov't subsidies. Furthering that point this corporation is using this developed technology funded by US tax citizens and being sold and deployed to nations that are considered hostile or highly competitive to the US?

But Of course let us not forget we also have a $80,000 dollar roadster that does have a 300 mile cruise range, automotive industries that are about to retool once again to satisfy who? EV's were implemented in 2009/2015ish and they failed.

As to horse and buggy's, one can only envision introducing horse and buggy's into today's modern highways and byways...Chaos comes to mind, accidents at every corner,massive traffic jams. Legislation being rewritten to accomadate this reintroduction,and of course angst and anger amoung the masses. 

One perception or opinion that I will give you, yet can anyone deny it is happening right in front of your eyez...

 

Edited by Eyes Wide Open

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(edited)

1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Interesting question that needs input. So In order to energize the conversation perhaps let us start by adding some fuel to the fire up this conversation.

Let us start with green energy in itself, since 2008 the US has invested over two trillion dollars into green energy theory.

Today that investment has produced  rolling blackouts in states that employ such strategies ,and a law suits in Texas that will in up in costs billions and billions of dollars and no definitive answers.

Today we have a corporation that exists soley due to gov't subsidies. Furthering that point this corporation is using this developed technology funded by US tax citizens and being sold and deployed to nations that are considered hostile or highly competitive to the US?

But Of course let us not forget we also have a $80,000 dollar roadster that does have a 300 mile cruise range, automotive industries that are about to retool once again to satisfy who? EV's were implemented in 2009/2015ish and they failed.

As to horse and buggy's, one can only envision introducing horse and buggy's into today's modern highways and byways...Chaos comes to mind, accidents at every corner,massive traffic jams. Legislation being rewritten to accomadate this reintroduction,and of course angst and anger amoung the masses. 

One perception or opinion that I will give you, yet can anyone deny it is happening right in front of your eyez...

 

Seems to work fine, with rear view mirrors and tail lights...

BTW, she's "driving".

Texas' event was much more than a "rolling" blackout.

California's event was indeed a "rolling load shed", properly implemented.

Clipboard01.jpg

 

Edited by turbguy

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1 minute ago, turbguy said:

Seems to work fine, with rear view mirrors and tail lights...

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No seats belts! LMAO, Turbguy aka Rebel Yell!. Living in Portland has made me quite accustomed to say a liberalerated view point. UNCHAINED discussions are tounge in cheek and graded by whom first loses their composure. Aka they buy the beer/wine.

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5 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

No seats belts! LMAO, Turbguy aka Rebel Yell!. Living in Portland has made me quite accustomed to say a liberalerated view point. UNCHAINED discussions are tounge in cheek and graded by whom first loses their composure. Aka they buy the beer/wine.

No speedo, or radio, or catalytic converter, either!

Fuel's cheap, too.  It "grows on trees".

Burp...

Edited by turbguy
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If internet existed back when the horseless buggy was introduced...

"You will have to install fuel stations across the entire nation!  My horses just needs water and natural feed - this is folly!"

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50 minutes ago, Symmetry said:

If internet existed back when the horseless buggy was introduced...

"You will have to install fuel stations across the entire nation!  My horses just needs water and natural feed - this is folly!"

Even worse, we now have to PAVE all the roads!  Folly!!  Who's gonna pay for THAT!

 

 

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Edited by turbguy

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1 hour ago, turbguy said:

Even worse, we now have to PAVE all the roads!  Folly!!  Who's gonna pay for THAT!

 

 

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This from a man living at 7000 ft and heated garages to boot. You heathens!

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