Natural gas mobility for heavy duty trucks

[Eric Gagen + 713]

18 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Ron on this topic of retro fitting gasoline engines to a lng/propane ....it is a bad concept. Without going into to much detail gasoline engines have been designed/ evolved to combust gasoline. 

Gasoline vs a LNG product combust differently, maybe explode differently would be a better example. Gasoline explodes slowly compared to LNG, meaning the timing needs to changed first, then the cams need to be changed at the same time....Those two events are critical to maximize the combustion/explosion. When done properly compression rations may well exceed 18.1 or higher. In short that would destroy the cast internals, the remedy would be forged internals.

Can one convert a gas engine over yes, but the conversion creates a weak enefficent engine...a slug.

Ford created a eco-tech engine, take a close look at that engine and it's design. It is the closest engine made to run on LNG. Notice a few things 10:1 compression,forged internals, variable cam timings, and direct injection. All that tech is used to combust gasoline efficiently and when done correct Ford was able to realize 375hp and 375 ft lbs of tourgue...out of 3 liters of engine. Pull up to 12000 lbs of weight out of a 3 litre engine. That is astounding, unheard only a few yrs ago. 

LNG would be able to run at perhaps 18/20:1 the results would be incredible, a 7.3 v8 might well run semis down the road. It is all about efficiency and reliability and of course the money it takes to get there.

 

I think the crux of the difficulty here is that LNG or CNG isn't a retrofit for gasoline engines - it's a retrofit of diesel engines which commonly run on #2 fuel oil (aka diesel fuel) .  Both diesel and gasoline engines are ICE engines but they operate on dramatically different compression ratios.  Modern diesel engines are already at the compression ratios required for efficient use of natural gas as a feed fuel, but as you have pointed out here gasoline ICE engines operate on different principals and cannot reasonably be retrofitted.  

Edited June 16, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[nsdp + 449]

On 6/15/2021 at 2:47 AM, Edoardo Di Giamberardino said:

well, I do not know if you read that the port of LA will equate Natural Gas trucks to ZEV trucks...it seems to me a good thing that goes into the direction or reducing particles emissions 

standards

CNG/LNG are approved as a transition solution only not permanent replacement.   CARB will let them run only when NOx is below Clean Air standards and that is influenced by the fuel the ships docking are burning. A fair number ships are running.5% S #6 and that uses up the NOx limits right there. .  They are garaged on days of non attainment days. Either way they are better than the dirty old diesel.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:15 AM, Eric Gagen said:

I think the crux of the difficulty here is that LNG or CNG isn't a retrofit for gasoline engines - it's a retrofit of diesel engines which commonly run on #2 fuel oil (aka diesel fuel) .  Both diesel and gasoline engines are ICE engines but they operate on dramatically different compression ratios.  Modern diesel engines are already at the compression ratios required for efficient use of natural gas as a feed fuel, but as you have pointed out here gasoline ICE engines operate on different principals and cannot reasonably be retrofitted.  

CNG is commonly retrofitted in gasoline engines throughout the world. Dual and tri fuel using alcohol also. They find a way to do it based on the price and availability of fuel. It has been done for many decades back to WW1. I have provided the information many times on this site. 

https://www.indiamart.com/carecylinders/retrofitting-cng-conversion.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicles_in_Brazil

https://www.hyliion.com/hybrid-cng/

Edited June 23, 2021 by ronwagn
add

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

On 3/29/2021 at 4:58 AM, Edoardo Di Giamberardino said:

Hello everyone,

it seems that Tesla Semi trucks won't be produced this year, so that the only option to decarbonize trucks may be CNG & LNG trucks. In China LNG trucks account for 10% of market share, in Europe 3-4% growing double digit. US market is still lagging..do you think US will ever catch-up? 

I wrote a few blog-articles on SeekingAlpha on natural gas mobility, focusing specifically on a company called Westport Fuel Systems. Let me know what you think.

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5507143-methane-biomethane-rng-potential-for-transport-sectors-decarbonization

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5507627-methane-biomethane-rng-potential-for-transport-sector-decarbonization-westport-fuel-systems

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5544801-lng-trucks-gaining-traction-in-europe-biomethane-narrative-westport-fuel-systems-still-room

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5570995-westport-fuel-systems-q4minus-2020-review-and-main-takeaways 

thanks,

Edoardo

I got an amazing idea, since making electric trucks for heavy duty would cost a fuck ton of money ,and it would do with buses, why not using copper overhead cables on roads, since you need a constant supply instead of a varying power load to satisfy the varying demand of fuel stations, you would use not much more copper or money than using batteries and power stations,

We already have plenty of underground copper cabling underground of cities, we will need more for EVs, and we would still use a fuck ton of copper cable for EV large stations, why not use that copper in overhead wirings and also save money from insulation?

Why has no one thinked about such an invention? oh wait they did, 120 years ago, and it works even better than Batteries.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Sebastian Meana

[nsdp + 449]

6 hours ago, Sebastian Meana said:

I got an amazing idea, since making electric trucks for heavy duty would cost a fuck ton of money ,and it would do with buses, why not using copper overhead cables on roads, since you need a constant supply instead of a varying power load to satisfy the varying demand of fuel stations, you would use not much more copper or money than using batteries and power stations,

We already have plenty of underground copper cabling underground of cities, we will need more for EVs, and we would still use a fuck ton of copper cable for EV large stations, why not use that copper in overhead wirings and also save money from insulation?

Why has no one thinked about such an invention? oh wait they did, 120 years ago, and it works even better than Batteries.



, the Netherlands

Kenworth/Volvo have H2 powered Class 8 trucks that are limited to use inside freight terminals due to logistics here in the US, Royal Dutch has commercial  terminals in Germany the Netherlands  and Denmark.

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

On 6/16/2021 at 7:15 AM, Eric Gagen said:

I think the crux of the difficulty here is that LNG or CNG isn't a retrofit for gasoline engines - it's a retrofit of diesel engines which commonly run on #2 fuel oil (aka diesel fuel) .  Both diesel and gasoline engines are ICE engines but they operate on dramatically different compression ratios.  Modern diesel engines are already at the compression ratios required for efficient use of natural gas as a feed fuel, but as you have pointed out here gasoline ICE engines operate on different principals and cannot reasonably be retrofitted.  

Well, it kinda is? You just put gas port injectors in a gasoline engine, modify the ecu to advance timing, and thats it, Natural gas has a octane rating of 120 so you need to make your engine take advtandge or that or will lose power, (higher compression ratio, or supercharger, or turbocharger, or lean mixtures, or advanced ignition timing)
Heres a catalog of parts if you want

In a diesel engine, is more tricky you either remove the injectors and use spark plugs, and lower compression pistons with around 12:1 compression, or... use the diesel injectors to inject a microscopic amount of fuel to serve as pilot fuel to ignite the natural gas in the cylinders




Haha, Natural gas V8 go brrr

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sebastian Meana

[Edoardo Di Giamberardino + 6]

16 hours ago, Sebastian Meana said:

I got an amazing idea, since making electric trucks for heavy duty would cost a fuck ton of money ,and it would do with buses, why not using copper overhead cables on roads, since you need a constant supply instead of a varying power load to satisfy the varying demand of fuel stations, you would use not much more copper or money than using batteries and power stations,

We already have plenty of underground copper cabling underground of cities, we will need more for EVs, and we would still use a fuck ton of copper cable for EV large stations, why not use that copper in overhead wirings and also save money from insulation?

Why has no one thinked about such an invention? oh wait they did, 120 years ago, and it works even better than Batteries.

are you aware of the costs of this proposal? In europe, where population density is much higher than the USA, it should be at around 1 million euro per KM with payback period estimated to be 15 years...

Scania is pushing for this solution but sincerely you got train for this, not any need to do this on roads.

[Eric Gagen + 713]

1 hour ago, Sebastian Meana said:

Well, it kinda is? You just put gas port injectors in a gasoline engine, modify the ecu to advance timing, and thats it, Natural gas has a octane rating of 120 so you need to make your engine take advtandge or that or will lose power, (higher compression ratio, or supercharger, or turbocharger, or lean mixtures, or advanced ignition timing)
Heres a catalog of parts if you want

In a diesel engine, is more tricky you either remove the injectors and use spark plugs, and lower compression pistons with around 12:1 compression, or... use the diesel injectors to inject a microscopic amount of fuel to serve as pilot fuel to ignite the natural gas in the cylinders




Haha, Natural gas V8 go brrr

Yeah - @ronwagn explained it to me. I was wrong.  

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

22 hours ago, Edoardo Di Giamberardino said:

are you aware of the costs of this proposal? In europe, where population density is much higher than the USA, it should be at around 1 million euro per KM with payback period estimated to be 15 years...

Scania is pushing for this solution but sincerely you got train for this, not any need to do this on roads.

Their estimate is for the one-off few km stretch of catenary, there are savings potentials, Standardize stuff, mass produce it , use some automation to make it cheap in its installation, use standard converters, increase voltages, a KM of two way traffic trolleybus catenary can be built for around 300,000 Euros in the Czech republic, and anyway a KM or road costs 2 million dollars, not highway, single lane road.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Sebastian Meana

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 5/30/2021 at 4:19 PM, Eric Gagen said:

The comment about the price of diesel in Europe is definately true, although don't forget that by US standards their natural gas is also expensive.  There probably IS a price point at  which it makes sense in the US, but I don't know exactly where it is.  The cost of fuel in the US for diesel or natural gas in the US is lower in both cases, but the distance travelled per year tends to be much higher so the whole math situation is going to be very different.

The specific components and economics of overhauls are for the transmissions (rebuild, or replace at regular intervals) and the engine blocks (rebuild or replace at regular intervals) as well as all other moving parts (belts, pulleys, fuel injectors, brakes, electronic fuel injection systems, etc.) However all these systems except for small parts of the fule injectors are 100% common between diesel and natural gas fueled equipment - any improvements do not change the competitive economics of fuel switching for trucks - they only change the economics of the trucking industry as a whole.  Lots is done in this area, because it is one of the 2 major selling points for heavy duty diesel engines (the other being fuel economy) the initial purchase price is a distant 3rd, because it the up front investment in high quality engines always pays for itself if it is fuel efficient and cheap and easy to work on (or unlikely to fail)

Emissions are identical.  All US trucks are now using ultra low sulfer diesel fuel, so the only emissions that you have to worry about are NOx and particulates.  In that regard, there is no difference in emissions controls - indeed because it tends to burn slightly hotter, diesel engines running on natural gas (instead of #2 fuel oil) tend to produce slightly more NOx, so there is no change in the emissions controls for either one.  

I still see some diesel trucks that constantly emit large quantities of black soot. I just filmed one in Colorado. 

What is offroad diesel? I saw that as a choice on the pumps. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:23 AM, Edoardo Di Giamberardino said:

are you aware of the costs of this proposal? In europe, where population density is much higher than the USA, it should be at around 1 million euro per KM with payback period estimated to be 15 years...

Scania is pushing for this solution but sincerely you got train for this, not any need to do this on roads.

You can thank GM for destroying street cars. They bought them out in Los Angeles. Now they use CNG buses in most of California. Strangely, not for school buses that I have seen. 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

7 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I still see some diesel trucks that constantly emit large quantities of black soot. I just filmed one in Colorado. 

What is offroad diesel? I saw that as a choice on the pumps. 

Off road diesel is for use in farm equipment.  It is not taxed with the ‘road fuel’ tax on a per gallon basis. It’s dyed red so that any inspector can easily check an on road vehicle with a dip cup to determine if it’s diesel which had been properly taxed or not.  For this reason it’s often called ‘red dot’ diesel.  It used to be the case that red dot/off road use diesel was exempted from some of the sulfur requirements also.  I don’t know if that is still the case any more.  

Edited September 6, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[nsdp + 449]

14 hours ago, ronwagn said:

I still see some diesel trucks that constantly emit large quantities o the buyer has to fillf black soot. I just filmed one in Colorado. 

What is offroad diesel? I saw that as a choice on the pumps. 

Off road diesel was 3% sulfur(now0.5%) and paid no road tax. There is paperwork that the buyer has to fill out. Agriculture use is exempted as is some but not all construction equipment.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:07 PM, nsdp said:

Kenworth/Volvo have H2 powered Class 8 trucks that are limited to use inside freight terminals due to logistics here in the US, Royal Dutch has commercial  terminals in Germany the Netherlands  and Denmark.

Any info on the price compared to LNG or CNG. I suspect it is far higher. 

[nsdp + 449]

1 minute ago, ronwagn said:

Any info on the price compared to LNG or CNG. I suspect it is far higher. 

I guess that is relative. Diesel can't go dockside these can. The K-whopper has a fuel cell and motor but no transmission.  Speed limit on the dock is 20 mph so brakes are lighter. They're apples and oranges.

[KeyboardWarrior + 527]

On 3/29/2021 at 9:03 AM, Meredith Poor said:

If you aren't familiar with the Sabatier reaction, look this up. The chemical reaction is 4H2 + CO2 -> CH4 + 2H2O. This has been understood since the late 1890's and Raney Nickel-based reactors have been around since the 1920's.

There are various processes for converting methane to methanol or propane, either of which is a liquid fuel without extreme pressure. Methanol is liquid at room temperature and propane becomes a liquid at relatively incidental pressures. Recent discoveries (recent meaning since the start of 2021) are showing new ways of producing methanol from methane under room temperature and pressure conditions, or producing methanol directly from CO2.

Methanol (COH4) breaks up into synthesis gas (CO + 2H2) with mild heating, and is usually used as the starting point for making gasoline or diesel using Fischer-Tropf synthesis.

Natural gas is 'cleaner' than diesel, but difficult to handle. Propane is a commonly used mass transit fuel and is nearly as energy dense as diesel. The issue at this point is figuring out how to make methanol or propane from natural gas 'at the source', meaning at the point of emission, so that the collected product is easy to transport. Methane emissions are being found with distressing frequency - there is considerable value in figuring out how to intercept these emissions and make them commercially useful.

At one end, the technologies for natural gas storage and transmission are getting more and more effective, but at the other end, NG conversion to liquid fuels is also getting easier.

Keyword search 'Lake Kivu Methane'

Reports like this one show the growing potential of gas to liquids technology in expanded markets: 

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9717/5/3/33

Benzene from methane is a telling process because it demonstrates the ability to convert methane into higher hydrocarbon feedstock. There are all kinds of synthesis routes to important industrial chemicals we could discuss. 

Some day, I'm sure you'll agree, the hydrogen component will from renewable sources. I hope to see VHTG nuclear reactors with sulfur iodine cycles as a major source. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:20 PM, nsdp said:

I guess that is relative. Diesel can't go dockside these can. The K-whopper has a fuel cell and motor but no transmission.  Speed limit on the dock is 20 mph so brakes are lighter. They're apples and oranges.

Natural gas is used on docks around much of the world now, especially in Europe, it is gaining increased popularity. 

[Sebastian Meana + 278]

On 9/6/2021 at 2:59 AM, ronwagn said:

I still see some diesel trucks that constantly emit large quantities of black soot. I just filmed one in Colorado. 

What is offroad diesel? I saw that as a choice on the pumps. 

Offroad diesel or the pink or red dyed diesel fuel in Europe and the US is tax free or even subsidized diesel generally sold to farm owners or people in agriculture, and is illegal to buy unless you own or work in a farm, because they want taxes from most of the population

Generally the large sooty exhaust is a tune that Midwest diesel guys do because they find it entertaining, they simply add another common rail pump, take the ECU and run a veeeery rich mixture to make lots of power, you can just tune a diesel to polute very little by running it very lean


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqDRbJ3VGKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-_RgB_-Ue0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEgYYdw2nNA

Edited September 15, 2021 by Sebastian Meana

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 3/29/2021 at 2:58 AM, Edoardo Di Giamberardino said:

Hello everyone,

it seems that Tesla Semi trucks won't be produced this year, so that the only option to decarbonize trucks may be CNG & LNG trucks. In China LNG trucks account for 10% of market share, in Europe 3-4% growing double digit. US market is still lagging..do you think US will ever catch-up? 

I wrote a few blog-articles on SeekingAlpha on natural gas mobility, focusing specifically on a company called Westport Fuel Systems. Let me know what you think.

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5507143-methane-biomethane-rng-potential-for-transport-sectors-decarbonization

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5507627-methane-biomethane-rng-potential-for-transport-sector-decarbonization-westport-fuel-systems

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5544801-lng-trucks-gaining-traction-in-europe-biomethane-narrative-westport-fuel-systems-still-room

https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/48761778-edwarddg/5570995-westport-fuel-systems-q4minus-2020-review-and-main-takeaways 

thanks,

Edoardo

Edorado, The green extremists have labeled natural gas as a fossil fuel akin to coal. That is a fatal flaw in their argument. Other nations are leading the way with natural gas vehicles. China is the largest, but the technology has advanced remarkably in the last decade. Westport has some of the best tech but has many competitors worldwide. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Indians-turn-to-natural-gas-powered-cars-after-gasoline-price-hikes#:~:text=CNG%2C which results in fewer,larger vehicles such as buses.

India has a large market for natural gas from their smallest vehicles to their biggest. They will soon surpass China in population. The potential for natural gas vehicles is larger than that for EV's. Presently there are twice as many NGV's as EV's in the world. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/9/2021 at 12:51 AM, KeyboardWarrior said:

Reports like this one show the growing potential of gas to liquids technology in expanded markets: 

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9717/5/3/33

Benzene from methane is a telling process because it demonstrates the ability to convert methane into higher hydrocarbon feedstock. There are all kinds of synthesis routes to important industrial chemicals we could discuss. 

Some day, I'm sure you'll agree, the hydrogen component will from renewable sources. I hope to see VHTG nuclear reactors with sulfur iodine cycles as a major source. 

I think natural gas is just fine as it is. Stopping leaks in the transportation lines and flaring are the only real problems IMHO. The main problem is not using natural gas in areas of the world that would greatly benefit from it. LNG can help solve that problem along with trucking, new pipelines, new port resources etc. Natural gas production sites are plentiful worldwide.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 9/2/2021 at 7:23 AM, Edoardo Di Giamberardino said:

are you aware of the costs of this proposal? In europe, where population density is much higher than the USA, it should be at around 1 million euro per KM with payback period estimated to be 15 years...

Scania is pushing for this solution but sincerely you got train for this, not any need to do this on roads.

Natural gas vehicles have been in use since WW1. 

[周永樂 + 3]

I've been keeping an eye on the whole Tesla Semi situation, too. It's a bit of a bummer that they're not rolling out this year. I'm really curious about how the US is going to adapt to alternative fuels for trucks, especially with LNG and CNG. 

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a catch-up phase for the US in terms of embracing alternative fuels for heavy load trucks. Sustainability is becoming a bigger and bigger focus, so I'm hopeful we'll see some advancements in that direction.

Edited November 30, 2023 by 周永樂

[Anatolybrianik 0]

Well, it's interesting to read posted articles you made and as for essentials growth in the United States economics and infrastructure issues will be reduced and rebuilt to a standard for a benefit to everyone including the US citizens. Glad to drop my comments and probably I'll visit your content time to time thank you.