.

[turbguy + 1,543]

13 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

It is good to see Wyoming act responsibly using law and not opinions. I need to look at these laws only for my own self interests. I also believe only a fool would not vaccinate themselves if over say 25 yrs old... It's the old adage be there or be square theme...maybe be there or not be there comes to mind.

 

And yet, more than half of Republicans under the age of 50 say they simply won’t get a vaccine. Their hesitancy is being fanned by right-wing hacks, Fox News showboats, and vaccine skeptics like Alex Berenson. The case for the vaccines is built upon a firm foundation of scientific discovery, clinical-trial data, and real-world evidence. The case against the vaccines wobbles because it is built upon a steaming pile of bullshit.

[Boat + 1,323]

Dec 31 China reports the first 41 cases to the WHO.

Jan 1 st China closes the seafood market. 
 

Jan 7th the CDC establishes the COVID 19 incident management system. 
 

Feb 28th at a political rally accused the Dems of politicizing the virus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_February_2020

Trump announced operation warp speed on May 15. The agreement to buy vaccines 

[Boat + 1,323]

While Trump was blaming the Dems for politicking the virus the World was being attacked by the virus. He knew it and our government knew it. 
On Feb 2nd he did restrict travel from China which he claims saved lives. It probably did. But he didn’t restrict and track 27,000 Americans coming home. He didn’t restrict travel from HongCong, or Europe or the rest of the world. He didn’t seal the borders. He didn’t warn the American people until much later. He was almost worthless. 
Most of our deaths are on him and Republicans. Just like the Capital riots and 200 deaths from a Texas storm. To be a Republican brings a little death. And to think they can run a country. Sure, with more death through being incompetent. 
Why in January Trump didn’t sound the alarm about COVID and immediately initiate a strong response maybe we will never know. Blowing off over 2 months of response time killed Americans. Bragging about ordering vaccines in May doesn’t get it for me. It may make mr pillow happy, it may make a Republican representative happy but for those of us who can Google, not so much.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Boat

[ronwagn + 6,290]

On 4/2/2021 at 9:08 AM, turbguy said:

I happen to recall several comments by a former president who inferred it wasn't serious.

Can you be more explicit concerning what constitutional freedom(s) was being destroyed by public health orders from the States?

As far as I can see, you could still have:

• First Amendment [Religion, Speech, Press, Assembly, Petition (1791)]
• Second Amendment [Right to Bear Arms (1791)]
• Third Amendment [Quartering of Troops (1791)]
• Fourth Amendment [Search and Seizure (1791)]
• Fifth Amendment [Grand Jury, Double Jeopardy, Self-Incrimination, Due Process (1791)]
• Sixth Amendment [Criminal Prosecutions - Jury Trial, Right to Confront and to Counsel (1791)]
• Seventh Amendment [Common Law Suits - Jury Trial (1791)]
• Eighth Amendment [Excess Bail or Fines, Cruel and Unusual Punishment (1791)]
• Ninth Amendment [Non-Enumerated Rights (1791)]
• Tenth Amendment [Rights Reserved to States or People (1791)]

Some  opponents understandably are desperate to get back to work. Some just want to get back to their lives. Their right to protest is absolute!  The right to get a haircut or go to the movies is not. The Constitution doesn’t give anyone the right to spread coronavirus, any more than it entitles smokers to light up wherever they want.

Businesses have lost their rights to be open, Churches have lost their right to properly serve their members, their livelihoods have been stolen. The right to travel freely has been infringed and many others. Not only that but many other plans are being enacted to further nefarious plans that prevent the use of fossil fuels and to force people to pay more for energy and fossil fuel derived products. I could write much more but it is obvious to any thinking person. 

[surrept33 + 609]

49 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Businesses have lost their rights to be open, Churches have lost their right to properly serve their members, their livelihoods have been stolen. The right to travel freely has been infringed and many others. Not only that but many other plans are being enacted to further nefarious plans that prevent the use of fossil fuels and to force people to pay more for energy and fossil fuel derived products. I could write much more but it is obvious to any thinking person. 

Coronavirus has been on the quarantine list ever since this executive order in 2003, which appears to apply to any SARS-associated coronavirus (SARS-CoV): https://www.cdc.gov/sars/quarantine/exec-2004-04-03.html

At that time, there was real danger for the original SARS to leapfrog to the US and cause havoc.  It didn't that time, but this time, it did. 

On a federal level, it has an effect on commerce, so there is plenty of case law behind why it is rational (very occasionally) for governments to do such a thing, both at the federal, state, and local levels. It's a public health issue. 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

I don't think we'll ever get this far since herd immunity may develop, but just in case, local jurisdictions (and things like schools) also have the right to mandate vaccinations because these are communicable diseases:

https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1824/jacobson-v-massachusetts

It's sad to see some of the anti-vaxxer conspiracy theories bring back things like measles, something that had long been eradicated in much of the western world due to mass vaccination.

Andrew Wakefield, who fraudulently popularized the link between the MMR vaccine and autism looks like he's at it again: https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/12/27/fraud-doctor-andrew-wakefield-now-lying-about-covid-rna-vaccine-15240

Edited April 4, 2021 by surrept33

[turbguy + 1,543]

15 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Businesses have lost their rights to be open, Churches have lost their right to properly serve their members, their livelihoods have been stolen. The right to travel freely has been infringed and many others. Not only that but many other plans are being enacted to further nefarious plans that prevent the use of fossil fuels and to force people to pay more for energy and fossil fuel derived products. I could write much more but it is obvious to any thinking person. 

While I feel where you are coming from, what text of our Constitution does any of those points violate?  

Please, be specific.

A business that sells weed in my state has no right to be open.   A church that uses peyote has no right to serve that to it's members.  People can still donate to the churce's "livelihood". 

I do not see a Constitutional "right to travel" perhaps you do. 

And realize that the States retain considerable police powers to limit freedoms.

If you feel that there is Constitutional right to extract, process, and transport fossil fuels, I would like to see that in the Constitution's text. 

A farmer cannot use home-grown feed for his own cattle without violating constitutionally-upheld laws.  Does that not seem to violate the Constitution?

I suspect a "rolling eyes" response will appear...

[turbguy + 1,543]

 

Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.

If the Federal Government has that interstate authority, the states have that INTRASTATE authority.

Don't laugh, this IS possible...

Edited April 4, 2021 by turbguy

[ronwagn + 6,290]

19 hours ago, Boat said:

Dec 31 China reports the first 41 cases to the WHO.

Jan 1 st China closes the seafood market. 
 

Jan 7th the CDC establishes the COVID 19 incident management system. 
 

Feb 28th at a political rally accused the Dems of politicizing the virus.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_COVID-19_pandemic_in_February_2020

Trump announced operation warp speed on May 15. The agreement to buy vaccines 

You conveniently forget that India and others used hydroxychloroquine and other treatments to very good effect while the CDC condmemned it and never advised on use of ivermectin either. These could have been used much earlier than the Warp Speed vaccine that is is now saving lives around the world. Other antibiotics and nutrients such as vitamin D and zinc were also neglected. Many lives were lost because of the advice to focus on intubation and the need for ventilators that usually did more damage than good and now sit unused in warehouses. 

[surrept33 + 609]

15 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

You conveniently forget that India and others used hydroxychloroquine and other treatments to very good effect while the CDC condmemned it and never advised on use of ivermectin either. These could have been used much earlier than the Warp Speed vaccine that is is now saving lives around the world. Other antibiotics and nutrients such as vitamin D and zinc were also neglected. Many lives were lost because of the advice to focus on intubation and the need for ventilators that usually did more damage than good and now sit unused in warehouses. 

India did not use HCQ after the initial surge after most of larger WHO studies said it was ineffective. The country did have a huge amount of supply because it's an antimalarial. 

In selective outbreaks later last year, they used good old fashioned quarantining (which would make John Snow proud) to reduce the blast radius:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-dharavi/fact-check-indian-government-said-containment-strategies-not-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-helped-mumbai-slum-slow-rate-of-new-coronavirus-cases-idUSKBN27526S

Anyways, by then, most of the efficacy of the Warp Speed vaccine candidates was pretty well known - they were just going through more trials to make sure the side effect profiles were well known. 

 

From the Government Accountability Office's Warp Speed Post Mortem: https://www.gao.gov/assets/720/712410.pdf

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by surrept33

[ronwagn + 6,290]

55 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

Coronavirus has been on the quarantine list ever since this executive order in 2003, which appears to apply to any SARS-associated coronavirus (SARS-CoV): https://www.cdc.gov/sars/quarantine/exec-2004-04-03.html

At that time, there was real danger for the original SARS to leapfrog to the US and cause havoc.  It didn't that time, but this time, it did. 

On a federal level, it has an effect on commerce, so there is plenty of case law behind why it is rational (very occasionally) for governments to do such a thing, both at the federal, state, and local levels. It's a public health issue. 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlawsregulationsquarantineisolation.html

I don't think we'll ever get this far since herd immunity may develop, but just in case, local jurisdictions (and things like schools) also have the right to mandate vaccinations because these are communicable diseases:

https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1824/jacobson-v-massachusetts

It's sad to see some of the anti-vaxxer conspiracy theories bring back things like measles, something that had long been eradicated in much of the western world due to mass vaccination.

Andrew Wakefield, who fraudulently popularized the link between the MMR vaccine and autism looks like he's at it again: https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/12/27/fraud-doctor-andrew-wakefield-now-lying-about-covid-rna-vaccine-15240

How do you relate that to my statement. I am a strong proponent of maximum vaccinations for everyone, just not against the will of citizens or their rights. 

It is generally not illegal for anyone to spread HIV by not informing their sexual partners that they have HIV. Why is that particular disease given cart blanche? 

When is the last time time you heard of it being enforced?

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law/states/exposure.html

https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-many-people-have-died-of-aids-48721

According to the WHO, 32 million people have died of HIV since the beginning of the epidemic.

Edited April 4, 2021 by ronwagn
reference

[ronwagn + 6,290]

50 minutes ago, turbguy said:

 

Under 42 Code of Federal Regulations parts 70 and 71, CDC is authorized to detain, medically examine, and release persons arriving into the United States and traveling between states who are suspected of carrying these communicable diseases.

If the Federal Government has that interstate authority, the states have that INTRASTATE authority.

Don't laugh, this IS possible...

Regulations are not laws and are not always constitutional. Rights have to be defended. Laws are not always defensible either. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

26 minutes ago, surrept33 said:

India did not use HCQ after the initial surge after most of larger WHO studies said it was ineffective. The country did have a huge amount of supply because it's an antimalarial. 

In selective outbreaks later last year, they used good old fashioned quarantining (which would make John Snow proud) to reduce the blast radius:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-dharavi/fact-check-indian-government-said-containment-strategies-not-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-helped-mumbai-slum-slow-rate-of-new-coronavirus-cases-idUSKBN27526S

Anyways, by then, most of the efficacy of the Warp Speed vaccine candidates was pretty well known - they were just going through more trials to make sure the side effect profiles were well known. 

 

From the Government Accountability Office's Warp Speed Post Mortem: https://www.gao.gov/assets/720/712410.pdf

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths Check the results for India. This is not about one section of one city in India.

[surrept33 + 609]

1 hour ago, ronwagn said:

How do you relate that to my statement. I am a strong proponent of maximum vaccinations for everyone, just not against the will of citizens or their rights. 

It is generally not illegal for anyone to spread HIV by not informing their sexual partners that they have HIV. Why is that particular disease given cart blanche? 

When is the last time time you heard of it being enforced?

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law/states/exposure.html

https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-many-people-have-died-of-aids-48721

According to the WHO, 32 million people have died of HIV since the beginning of the epidemic.

Well, many states do have laws that do make it illegal. It's debatable whether that's a good idea or not anymore, but it depends on the law, IMHO: 

https://www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DOj-HIV-Criminal-Law-Best-Practices-Guide.pdf

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law/states/exposure.html

 

Part of it is because since modern HIV anti-retrovirals work so well (not for curing it, but reducing viral load to almost nil), and there is still stigma to being HIV-positive in some groups of people, which may actually cause them to spread it more than they would otherwise: https://hivinfo.nih.gov/understanding-hiv/fact-sheets/fda-approved-hiv-medicines

Ideally, you want anyone who is HIV-positive on retroviral therapy ASAP, and you want to remove the stigma that various subpopulations have from seeking medical care. If you want an area of the world where there has been stigma for too long, see certain parts of sub-saharan africa, where HIV epidemics raged because people didn't trust doctors even after cheap generic anti-retrovirals were widely available. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by surrept33

[turbguy + 1,543]

53 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Regulations are not laws and are not always constitutional. Rights have to be defended. Laws are not always defensible either. 

True.  In this case, that remains to be seen.  Given prior court decisions, they will EASILY hold as not violating the Constitution.

And the state can indeed order you to be vaccinated, against your will.

The Constitution has no text protecting you from state orders against it.

And that's the way it is.

Eye rolls predicted.

Edited April 4, 2021 by turbguy

[Boat + 1,323]

18 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Businesses have lost their rights to be open, Churches have lost their right to properly serve their members, their livelihoods have been stolen. The right to travel freely has been infringed and many others. Not only that but many other plans are being enacted to further nefarious plans that prevent the use of fossil fuels and to force people to pay more for energy and fossil fuel derived products. I could write much more but it is obvious to any thinking person. 

No shyt Sherlock, that’s what you do during a pandemic. You attempt to save lives. 

[Boat + 1,323]

16 hours ago, turbguy said:

True.  In this case, that remains to be seen.  Given prior court decisions, they will EASILY hold as not violating the Constitution.

And the state can indeed order you to be vaccinated, against your will.

The Constitution has no text protecting you from state orders against it.

And that's the way it is.

Eye rolls predicted.

I think you need to prove a state can force vaccination. But you could say for example that without proof of vaccination you can’t get on this plane or enter this building etc. You could also advertise a no mask requirement at a store. This is my understanding anyways.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

19 hours ago, turbguy said:

While I feel where you are coming from, what text of our Constitution does any of those points violate?  

Please, be specific.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment#:~:text=Amendment I,for a redress of grievances.

The constitution is 8th grade material for most, perhaps a refresher is needed. Speaking for myself a visit back to memory lane was in order. Age had allowed me to take to many short cuts on the fundamental truths it does represent.

Odd i just had a fleeting memory of dealing with engineering type's...so ive posted a few more links for the purpose painting by the colors...lol

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/first_amendment

https://pages.uoregon.edu/tgleason/j385/Interpretation.html

https://www.britannica.com/topic/First-Amendment

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt1_4_1/

Edited April 4, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[turbguy + 1,543]

1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

The constitution is 8th grade material for most, perhaps a refresher is needed. Speaking for myself a visit back to memory lane was in order. Age had allowed me to take to many short cuts on the fundamental truths it does represent.

Odd i just had a fleeting memory of dealing with engineering type's...so ive posted a few more links for the purpose painting by the colors...lol

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/first_amendment

https://pages.uoregon.edu/tgleason/j385/Interpretation.html

https://www.britannica.com/topic/First-Amendment

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt1_4_1/

I beleive it was 6th grade for myself.

In any event, can you please be specific as possible concerning what might be considered unconstitutional.  Any simple point would help. 

The Free Exercise Clause prohibits the government, in most but not all instances, from interfering with a person's practice of their religion.  For instance, the practice of plural marriage can be (and is) a crime.

You may feel your rights to personal liberty are absolute.   They are not.

Edited April 5, 2021 by turbguy

[turbguy + 1,543]

2 hours ago, Boat said:

I think you need to prove a state can force vaccination. But you could say for example that without proof of vaccination you can’t get on this plane or enter this building etc. You could also advertise a no mask requirement at a store. This is my understanding anyways.

https://www.mic.com/p/mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations-heres-what-states-employers-can-legally-require-29575218

Can governments require vaccinations?

The most intrusive policy would involve government mandating vaccination for all Americans, with the exception of those with a medical exemption.

People are often surprised to learn that states would likely have the legal right to enforce such a rule.

In the 1905 landmark case Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a state criminal law that required all adult inhabitants of Cambridge to get a smallpox vaccine or be fined. The Supreme Court explained that an individual’s liberty rights under the U.S. Constitution are not absolute and the mandatory vaccination law was necessary to promote public health and safety.

While Jacobson v. Massachusetts is over 100 years old, courts continue to rely on the reasoning of the case. State governments still occasionally enact broad compulsory vaccination policies. In 2019, in the midst of a measles outbreak, New York City mandated that anyone over six months of age who lived, went to school or worked in several ZIP codes within the city had to be vaccinated against measles or be subject to a fine.

Constitutional law is clear that states may require individual liberty to yield to reasonable public health regulations, including mandatory vaccination laws that threaten fines. As the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, which encompasses New York State, recently noted, arguments that such laws infringe impermissibly on liberty are “foreclosed.” States may also require vaccinations for school admission and forgo religious exemptions to such laws.

Edited April 4, 2021 by turbguy

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,554]

5 hours ago, turbguy said:

I beleive it was 6th grade for myself.

In any event, can you please be specific as possible concerning what might be considered unconstitutional.  Any simple point would help. 

The Free Exercise Clause prohibits the government, in most but not all instances, from interfering with a person's practice of their religion.  For instance, the practice of plural marriage can be (and is) a crime.

You may feel your rights to personal liberty are absolute.   They are not.

Turbguy not to flippant here, but living at 6000' and smoking bud..does that practice allow the expansion of thoughts to new levels? 

When one attempts to conflate a topic,their first response is generally...Who Me? I was just thinking hypothetically. Is that where we are here?

Edited April 5, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[surrept33 + 609]

14 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

The constitution is 8th grade material for most, perhaps a refresher is needed. Speaking for myself a visit back to memory lane was in order. Age had allowed me to take to many short cuts on the fundamental truths it does represent.

Odd i just had a fleeting memory of dealing with engineering type's...so ive posted a few more links for the purpose painting by the colors...lol

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/first_amendment

https://pages.uoregon.edu/tgleason/j385/Interpretation.html

https://www.britannica.com/topic/First-Amendment

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt1_4_1/

Well, let's see:

https://www.history.com/topics/united-states-constitution/marbury-v-madison

^- because the constitution has a lot of clauses that can conflict with each other (for example, the 1st amendment, 4th amendment, 10th amendment, and 14th amendment, and the commerce clause can be interpreted to apply to public health situations, and can limit what people, state, or federal government can do when/where/how).

so the principle of judicial review, as practiced since marbury vs madison seems to apply. 

 

4th/14th amendment - limit police powers 

10th amendment - gives a lot of leeway to states for self-governance

commerce clause - gives the federal government a lot of power to regulate things across states

 

All of these are contradictory in some sense or another (which is good, because that means multiple checks and balances, but it also means that our constitutional framework is remarkably adaptable). 

 

[joeschmoe + 2]

It's strange how Trump supporters take his lies as the biblical truth and jump on anyone disagreeing with him as liars. Fauci has decades of bipartisan experience and a reputation for integrity. Trump has been caught in huge lies from pornstar hush money payoffs, Ukraine blackmail, Russian money laundering,Trump University fraud, Trump foundation fraud, tax evasion, and of course his big lies about the election that incited his "patriotic" followers to attack the capitol.

Trump's reputation is as a liar, a troublemaker that insults and attacks everybody, especially those who refute his lies. His followers are starry eyed worshippers that would eat bullcrap if he told them it was a donut.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

2 hours ago, joeschmoe said:

It's strange how Trump supporters take his lies as the biblical truth and jump on anyone disagreeing with him as liars. Fauci has decades of bipartisan experience and a reputation for integrity. Trump has been caught in huge lies from pornstar hush money payoffs, Ukraine blackmail, Russian money laundering,Trump University fraud, Trump foundation fraud, tax evasion, and of course his big lies about the election that incited his "patriotic" followers to attack the capitol.

Trump's reputation is as a liar, a troublemaker that insults and attacks everybody, especially those who refute his lies. His followers are starry eyed worshippers that would eat bullcrap if he told them it was a donut.

Just couldn't stay away could you @Enthalpic? Your TDS runs deep. 

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

On 4/4/2021 at 4:40 PM, turbguy said:

https://www.mic.com/p/mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations-heres-what-states-employers-can-legally-require-29575218

Can governments require vaccinations?

The most intrusive policy would involve government mandating vaccination for all Americans, with the exception of those with a medical exemption.

People are often surprised to learn that states would likely have the legal right to enforce such a rule.

In the 1905 landmark case Jacobson v. Massachusetts, the United States Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of a state criminal law that required all adult inhabitants of Cambridge to get a smallpox vaccine or be fined. The Supreme Court explained that an individual’s liberty rights under the U.S. Constitution are not absolute and the mandatory vaccination law was necessary to promote public health and safety.

While Jacobson v. Massachusetts is over 100 years old, courts continue to rely on the reasoning of the case. State governments still occasionally enact broad compulsory vaccination policies. In 2019, in the midst of a measles outbreak, New York City mandated that anyone over six months of age who lived, went to school or worked in several ZIP codes within the city had to be vaccinated against measles or be subject to a fine.

Constitutional law is clear that states may require individual liberty to yield to reasonable public health regulations, including mandatory vaccination laws that threaten fines. As the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, which encompasses New York State, recently noted, arguments that such laws infringe impermissibly on liberty are “foreclosed.” States may also require vaccinations for school admission and forgo religious exemptions to such laws.

Was the smallpox vaccine experimental? Was the R naught of smallpox equivalent to Covid, which has never been actually measured? Colorado just stopped vaccinating after too many immediate adverse reactions. 

[surrept33 + 609]

5 hours ago, joeschmoe said:

It's strange how Trump supporters take his lies as the biblical truth and jump on anyone disagreeing with him as liars. Fauci has decades of bipartisan experience and a reputation for integrity. Trump has been caught in huge lies from pornstar hush money payoffs, Ukraine blackmail, Russian money laundering,Trump University fraud, Trump foundation fraud, tax evasion, and of course his big lies about the election that incited his "patriotic" followers to attack the capitol.

Trump's reputation is as a liar, a troublemaker that insults and attacks everybody, especially those who refute his lies. His followers are starry eyed worshippers that would eat bullcrap if he told them it was a donut.

Lest we forget about it, do we remember our "former leader of the free world" claim that he could "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" he said, referring to the major street in New York City that cuts through Manhattan's large commercial district. "It's, like, incredible."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-i-could-shoot-somebody-and-i-wouldnt-lose-any-voters/

I admire that panache, but perhaps we should heed more ancient wisdom? Every civilization since seems to have written a story sort of like this one: https://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/the-icarus-syndrome-execs-who-fly-too-close-to-the-sun-11851

I think it's a story for the ages.

But the problem is that Trump didn't shoot somebody on "5th avenue". He shot 31000 people on "5th avenue":

https://gothamist.com/news/coronavirus-statistics-tracking-epidemic-new-york

Perhaps Trump has not lived in NYC much lately, but do we dare ask what the value of human life is worth? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/03/28/coronavirus-latest-news/