GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

GM and Ford Are Leaving Electric Vehicle Stocks in the Dust

If you had to guess at the start of the year which electric vehicle stocks would produce the best returns by the beginning of June, you would have likely been wrong. It's been a bloodbath for the most part.

Shares of industry leader Tesla are down around 15% year to date, and they're down more than 30% from their recent high. Upstarts like Workhorse, Lordstown Motors, and Canoo have suffered even steeper declines. Investors are no longer giving the benefit of the doubt to pre-revenue electric vehicle companies.

The inevitable is beginning,

https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/06/04/gm-and-ford-are-leaving-electric-vehicle-stocks-in/

[-trance + 114]

5 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

There are no company cars... 

If you say so!

[QuarterCenturyVet + 312]

None of this matters. Wind and solar are a joke. People that believe wind and solar are going to be the savior of gaia are a joke. 

 https://youtu.be/3ZsXyDkyrCk

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

4 hours ago, -trance said:

If you say so!

Ah, another definition shaver who believes the vast minority actually matters....

Do you ever look in the mirror?

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,190]

9 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Then there's the difference between US leasing fools and European ones

You do waste a lot of $$$ on healthcare though

Can't say you are wrong there... USA has 75% Socialist Healthcare and 25% Capitalist though it is closer to only ~15% now.  Worst of both worlds.  Go one way or the other.  I am old enough to remember  when health care was cheap and prices posted at the doctors office and you PAID at the office.  Doing this alone saves ~ 33% of the cost of normal health care instead of shipping, delaying bookeeping, with a 3rd party in between jacking up the prices.  Yes, you can still find doctors who do everything in house but they are almost all rural places with a minority of the population. 

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

2 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Can't say you are wrong there... USA has 75% Socialist Healthcare and 25% Capitalist though it is closer to only ~15% now.  Worst of both worlds.  Go one way or the other.  I am old enough to remember  when health care was cheap and prices posted at the doctors office and you PAID at the office.  Doing this alone saves ~ 33% of the cost of normal health care instead of shipping, delaying bookeeping, with a 3rd party in between jacking up the prices.  Yes, you can still find doctors who do everything in house but they are almost all rural places with a minority of the population. 

I have recently had a brush with this managed health care. I am of the age to now where medicare is available to me so searching for a doctor is in order and taking a closer look at the guidelines....I do not believe at this point i will be using the network to much, medicare is very is a very questionable system...lol there doctors actually assume the patient is a well idiot...maybe grateful...Almost a take or leave it approach..

[Ecocharger + 1,473]

21 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

This maybe true in the US but in Europe tax incentives for both individuals and companies actually mean it makes economic sense to drive these. That is why you see significant growth/traction in EV sales and market share in Europe. If you drive a company leased vehicle in the UK you would be mad to drive anything other than an EV or a hybrid, but even the hybrids are being hiked in tax now.

Leasing means no massive outlay for the vehicle which currently is prohibitive to your average person.  You can lease a Tesla model 3 for £365 per month

https://www.sprintcontracts.com/car-leasing/tesla/model-3-saloon

Are company leased or privately leased vehicles not popular in the US??? If they are you will undoubtedly see them take significant market share if the same tax incentives are offered.

The only think that can stop the growth in EV's are huge increased battery costs and a level playing field on the tax implications for companies and individuals between ICE and EV's. I think new tech on batteries will negate this problem and its political suicide for any government not to go green as it seems the vast majority of people dont read or understand the science on climate change.

We will see, and are already seeing, huge price increases for battery inputs, and this is long before the ramp-up in production numbers for EV's.

The public will soon get caught up with the science. You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time. 

[Ecocharger + 1,473]

On 6/3/2021 at 11:57 PM, ronwagn said:

Many less expensive models are available worldwide though. https://fossbytes.com/cheapest-electric-cars/

But not here.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

3 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

We will see, and are already seeing, huge price increases for battery inputs, and this is long before the ramp-up in production numbers for EV's.

 

HaHa It is going to be a lot of fun watching you crash and burn. Pay attention and get an education in economics. Let's check in with reality and see how we are doing:

Lithium = Far below what it was a few years ago.

Graphite = Nothing to see here:

Nickel = Chart speaks for itself:

Cobalt = Well off its peak earlier this year in March and on its way down:

Manganese = Dull

Copper is a minor input to batteries. It is however the primary component used in the EV motor and yes it is at all time high:

An EV uses about 180 pounds of copper for the entire car. https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1rj32hqxy8c51/coppers-large-role-in-growing-electric-vehicle-production

However here is where you start babbling incoherently and no doubt telling us the comparative input costs of ICE are irrelevant.  Let's take a look at steel, as it is the primary input to an ICE engine and transmission. On average an ICE uses 440 pounds of steel for engine and transmission. https://www.worldsteel.org/steel-by-topic/steel-markets/automotive.html#:~:text=On average%2C 900 kg of steel is used per vehicle.&text=23% is in the drive,rolled high-strength steel strip. 

YIKES!! 

Good thing you will be able to buy a low cost EV!

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[ronwagn + 6,290]

13 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

But not here.

Why do you think that is? We allow much more dangerous vehicles such as motorbikes and motorcycles. 

[-trance + 114]

19 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

Why do you think that is? We allow much more dangerous vehicles such as motorbikes and motorcycles. 

Good question.

I imagine mostly because motorcycle accidents almost always only kill the driver of the motorcycle.

Once passengers become involved, and the lives of passengers in the other vehicle become at risk, safety standards kick in that greatly increase the cost.  Airbags, ABS brakes / traction control, minimum crash tests standards.  I bet some super cheap EV's don't even have daytime running lights (waste of power, but it's law here to have them).

Even backup cameras are shown to save enough children's lives they will be required soon - if not already.

Edited June 5, 2021 by -trance

[ronwagn + 6,290]

4 minutes ago, -trance said:

Good question.

I imagine mostly because motorcycle accidents almost always only kill the driver of the motorcycle.

Once passengers become involved, and the lives of passengers in the other vehicle become at risk, safety standards kick in that greatly increase the cost.  Airbags, ABS brakes / traction control, minimum crash tests standards.  I bet some super cheap EV's don't even have daytime running lights (waste of power, but it's law here to have them).

Even backup camera's are shown to save enough children's lives they will be required soon - if not already.

I assume that the price would have to double to meet our standards but that would still beat anything we offer. The same for Europe and other Western countries. 

Motorcycles can kill deer and humans. They can also cause multicar accidents and are a real nuisance on freeways if they are passing vehicles stuck in traffic. Even bicycles or electrified bikes can seriously harm pedestrians. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by ronwagn

[-trance + 114]

3 minutes ago, ronwagn said:

I assume that the price would have to double to meet our standards but that would still beat anything we offer. The same for Europe and other Western countries. 

 

Slightly off topic but my friends rich dad had his fancy golf cart upgraded so it went stupid fast and lasted all day.  It was so dangerous, but fun. If you went anywhere near top speed and took a corner you could easily roll the thing. It even had lightweight wheels and custom paint. 

The country club wasn't a fan of it... but he was an early investor (two properties, a marina spot, club/golf membership).  Yes, two properties; he got annoyed with his kids bringing riffraff like me around his house so he bought a second place for guests.

Guaranteed his golf cart cost way more than some made in India EV.

 

Sadly, when his wife died he sold everything off and moved away - no more mooching country club life for me. 

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

14 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

But not here.

Please see my entry on the Kandi. The last entry, it shows a red car. Great reviews. It is available in Colorado and will be sold in dealerships. I am not sure about all state availability. 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

56 minutes ago, -trance said:

 

Slightly off topic but my friends rich dad had his fancy golf cart upgraded so it went stupid fast and lasted all day.  It was so dangerous, but fun. If you went anywhere near top speed and took a corner you could easily roll the thing. It even had lightweight wheels and custom paint. 

The country club wasn't a fan of it... but he was an early investor (two properties, a marina spot, club/golf membership).  Yes, two properties; he got annoyed with his kids bringing riffraff like me around his house so he bought a second place for guests.

Guaranteed his golf cart cost way more than some made in India EV.

 

Sadly, when his wife died he sold everything off and moved away - no more mooching country club life for me. 

 

Please see my entry on the Kandi. The last entry, it shows a red car. Great reviews. It is available in Colorado and will be sold in dealerships. I am not sure about all state availability.

[Ecocharger + 1,473]

12 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

HaHa It is going to be a lot of fun watching you crash and burn. Pay attention and get an education in economics. Let's check in with reality and see how we are doing:

Lithium = Far below what it was a few years ago.

Graphite = Nothing to see here:

Nickel = Chart speaks for itself:

Cobalt = Well off its peak earlier this year in March and on its way down:

Manganese = Dull

Copper is a minor input to batteries. It is however the primary component used in the EV motor and yes it is at all time high:

An EV uses about 180 pounds of copper for the entire car. https://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b1rj32hqxy8c51/coppers-large-role-in-growing-electric-vehicle-production

However here is where you start babbling incoherently and no doubt telling us the comparative input costs of ICE are irrelevant.  Let's take a look at steel, as it is the primary input to an ICE engine and transmission. On average an ICE uses 440 pounds of steel for engine and transmission. https://www.worldsteel.org/steel-by-topic/steel-markets/automotive.html#:~:text=On average%2C 900 kg of steel is used per vehicle.&text=23% is in the drive,rolled high-strength steel strip. 

YIKES!! 

Good thing you will be able to buy a low cost EV!

 

 

 

Your own charts show a recent run-up in battery inputs costs, and the supposed ramp-up in production has not really begun yet. No hope for those scarce inputs.

You made a wise decision to stick with your ICE vehicle and avoid the EV's, Jay. Very wise.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,473]

2 hours ago, ronwagn said:

Why do you think that is? We allow much more dangerous vehicles such as motorbikes and motorcycles. 

The cheap EV's are not to the American taste, they do not measure up to what is available from ICE manufacturers, SUV's are all the rage in North America. I own one myself, my wife would not tolerate a glorified golf cart.

[ronwagn + 6,290]

33 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

The cheap EV's are not to the American taste, they do not measure up to what is available from ICE manufacturers, SUV's are all the rage in North America. I own one myself, my wife would not tolerate a glorified golf cart.

I think you are generalizing. There is a big potential market for an inexpensive electric vehicle IMHO. Please watch the youtube video on the Kandi that I posted. Watch the reactions of the testers and they speak of the interest of other Texans who see it. Did you see  my post on the Kandi?

[-trance + 114]

1 minute ago, ronwagn said:

I think you are generalizing. There is a big potential market for an inexpensive electric vehicle IMHO. Please watch the youtube video on the Kandi that I posted. Watch the reactions of the testers and they speak of the interest of other Texans who see it. Did you see  my post on the Kandi?

No, re-post it.

Does it have air conditioning and cruise control?  There are some minimum comforts people demand.

 

[ronwagn + 6,290]

24 minutes ago, -trance said:

No, re-post it.

Does it have air conditioning and cruise control?  There are some minimum comforts people demand.

 

It is still there, they don't go away. A/C yes probably no cruise. It seems kind of useless for driving around town. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

4 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Your own charts show a recent run-up in battery inputs costs, and the supposed ramp-up in production has not really begun yet. No hope for those scarce inputs.

You made a wise decision to stick with your ICE vehicle and avoid the EV's, Jay. Very wise.

Nothing like that skyrocketing steel price. Batteries will be cheap by comparison. ICE is doomed. HaHa 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

BEV share in Germany continues its rapid climb.

[specinho + 470]

when one really wants to promote something..........

 

[Ecocharger + 1,473]

18 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Nothing like that skyrocketing steel price. Batteries will be cheap by comparison. ICE is doomed. HaHa 

Jay, you were very wise to stick with your ICE and avoid the EV, good choice.

[Ecocharger + 1,473]

18 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

BEV share in Germany continues its rapid climb.

Again, you are only looking at registrations of new vehicles, not the total vehicle stock.  The EV percentage is still very very tiny in Germany and the EU. A small number of EV's, but they generate a lot of hot air.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Ecocharger