GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Just now, Rob Plant said:

Sigh!

Again you select data that fits your narrative. What I stated is also factual, we can go round the houses on this forever if you want, but Ive got better things to do.

Yeah, my data starts with Brexit, that is not "my narrative" it is the only narrative that matters. What you stated is factual but it is cherry picked out of the entire timeline and not representative of the entire timeline. Since Brexit the UK is way behind the G7, that is a fact!

 

 

[turbguy + 1,436]

9 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The peak hours you speak of are just as everyone is coming home and it is super simple to program your car to not start charging until after peak hours. Plus it is going to be common for cars to be able to sell electricity to the market. Most drivers travel less than 50 miles in a day which means their car is mostly charged when they get home. They will be able to sell electricity from 5 to 9pm and then buy electricity from midnight to 6am. So there won't be rolling blackouts.

A lot of what you say is obvious to many here. There will be some fraction of drivers that either gets in a charging bind, or requires the vehicle during off-peak hours (like working a night shift).  They will be unable to take full advantage of off-peak charging.  Most the population will be able to do so. 

Meanwhile, fossil transportation fuels don’t seem to be re-priced hourly (yet).  Fossil transportation fuels have advantages, such as much cheaper “storage” available.  I can extend my vehicle’s range (if ever required) by about 100 miles+, by securely placing a filled 5 gallon fuel can in the bed of my pickup, then spending about 10 minutes to add that to the tank.

Edited September 29, 2023 by turbguy

[turbguy + 1,436]

I want to add to Jay's comments, particularly with regard to EV battery grid support, but I continue to get "FORBIDDEN" and other head-scratching errors. 

 

I'll try again later.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

A lot of what you say is obvious to many here. There will be some fraction of drivers that either gets in a charging bind, or requires the vehicle during off-peak hours (like working a night shift).  They will be unable to take full advantage of off-peak charging.  Most the population will be able to do so. 

Meanwhile, fossil transportation fuels don’t seem to be re-priced hourly (yet).  Fossil transportation fuels have advantages, such as much cheaper “storage” available.  I can extend my vehicle’s range (if ever required) by about 100 miles+, by securely placing a filled 5 gallon fuel can in the bed of my pickup, then spending about 10 minutes to add that to the tank.

You are the one who said there were going to be rolling blackouts so it does not appear to be so obvious. A small fraction of drivers in a bind does not cause rolling blackouts.

Working a night shift means you will charge during the day. With solar that is peak electric production so not a problem.

 

[TailingsPond + 505]

11 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The peak hours you speak of are just as everyone is coming home and it is super simple to program your car to not start charging until after peak hours. Plus it is going to be common for cars to be able to sell electricity to the market. Most drivers travel less than 50 miles in a day which means their car is mostly charged when they get home. They will be able to sell electricity from 5 to 9pm and then buy electricity from midnight to 6am. So there won't be rolling blackouts.

+1

Between smart programming and the "internet of things" a large number of plugged in batteries actually increases grid stability.

Another simple thing that would greatly help is slightly staggered work start times.  It would cut down on traffic congestion and smooth out peak power draw times.

Education programs telling people not to run their all their appliances at the same time after work is another very simple thing.  Even older appliances often have a delay feature.

Simple, nearly free changes can make a huge difference.  These people who think green energy is impossible are closed minded.  There is plenty of low hanging fruit.

[turbguy + 1,436]

4 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

+1

Between smart programming and the "internet of things" a large number of plugged in batteries actually increases grid stability.

Another simple thing that would greatly help is slightly staggered work start times.  It would cut down on traffic congestion and smooth out peak power draw times.

Education programs telling people not to run their all their appliances at the same time after work is another very simple thing.  Even older appliances often have a delay feature.

Simple, nearly free changes can make a huge difference.  These people who think green energy is impossible are closed minded.  There is plenty of low hanging fruit.

I cannot seriously disagree with your statement (expect for the "+1"). 

Both you and Jay feel that EV battery powered "distributed generation" can be integrated into the grid at times of market need (or for personal "arbitrage on power") with a click of a whim.  I have two comments:

1.  Yes, it certainly is possible!

2. Significant alteration of existing hardware and distribution system management must occur.

In order to support item #2, reflect on the fact that distribution system was engineered to deliver power from a centralized source (aka, THE GRID) to  a bunch of "sinks" downstream.  It was not engineered to deliver from "sinks" that can change to a "source", contributing to distant sinks.

Hawaiian Electric has been dealing with a similar issue, in reaction to the deep penetration of rooftop solar generation in their rather limited areas, not interconnected with other islands.  They suffered a learning curve, and they are still dealing with emergent distribution system management and modification issues.  It just ain't that easy to quickly implement, particularly in larger systems than those in Hawaii.

Kinda like fast charger availability, that ain't that easy to be increased quickly.    

I smell some legislation on the horizon...

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by turbguy

[TailingsPond + 505]

18 minutes ago, turbguy said:

 

Both you and Jay feel that EV battery powered "distributed generation" can be integrated into the grid at times of market need (or for personal "arbitrage on power") with a click of a whim. 

 

I don't think widespread "selling power back to the grid" is will happen much soon.

What I think will, or should, happen is better demand-side management and houses having their own personal power reserves be it a plugged in car or a powerbank type thing.  Anything generated by panels etc. stays "in house" and just reduces your demand.  

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

39 minutes ago, turbguy said:

I cannot seriously disagree with your statement (expect for the "+1"). 

Both you and Jay feel that EV battery powered "distributed generation" can be integrated into the grid at times of market need (or for personal "arbitrage on power") with a click of a whim.  I have two comments:

1.  Yes, it certainly is possible!

2. Significant alteration of existing hardware and distribution system management must occur.

In order to support item #2, reflect on the fact that distribution system was engineered to deliver power from a centralized source (aka, THE GRID) to  a bunch of "sinks" downstream.  It was not engineered to deliver from "sinks" that can change to a "source", contributing to distant sinks.

Hawaiian Electric has been dealing with a similar issue, in reaction to the deep penetration of rooftop solar generation in their rather limited areas, not interconnected with other islands.  They suffered a learning curve, and they are still dealing with emergent distribution system management and modification issues.  It just ain't that easy to quickly implement, particularly in larger systems than those in Hawaii.

Kinda like fast charger availability, that ain't that easy to be increased quickly.    

I smell some legislation on the horizon...

 

Selling it back to the grid does not mean it needs to go further than the local household that is otherwise buying from the grid.

Beyond that, yes legislation is incoming.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

10 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Beyond that, yes legislation is incoming.

Your Green Future is looking brighter every day. Hmm a knife that cuts both ways...EWO is having a moment here..lol.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/09/19/electric-cars-better-environment-fossil-fuels/

CLIMATE COACH

Are electric cars really better for the environment

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

55 minutes ago, turbguy said:

I cannot seriously disagree with your statement (expect for the "+1"). 

Both you and Jay feel that EV battery powered "distributed generation" can be integrated into the grid at times of market need (or for personal "arbitrage on power") with a click of a whim.  I have two comments:

1.  Yes, it certainly is possible!

2. Significant alteration of existing hardware and distribution system management must occur.

In order to support item #2, reflect on the fact that distribution system was engineered to deliver power from a centralized source (aka, THE GRID) to  a bunch of "sinks" downstream.  It was not engineered to deliver from "sinks" that can change to a "source", contributing to distant sinks.

Hawaiian Electric has been dealing with a similar issue, in reaction to the deep penetration of rooftop solar generation in their rather limited areas, not interconnected with other islands.  They suffered a learning curve, and they are still dealing with emergent distribution system management and modification issues.  It just ain't that easy to quickly implement, particularly in larger systems than those in Hawaii.

Kinda like fast charger availability, that ain't that easy to be increased quickly.    

I smell some legislation on the horizon...

 

I'm taken back a bit Turbguy, foundational thoughts. Although watered down a smidge still refreshing.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/post-reports/the-hidden-toll-of-electric-cars-part-1/

The hidden toll of electric cars, Part 1

As the demand for electric vehicles soars and more minerals are needed for production, manganese mine workers in South Africa are experiencing mysterious health problems.

Tuesday, September 5, 2023

Edited September 30, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[TailingsPond + 505]

7 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/post-reports/the-hidden-toll-of-electric-cars-part-1/

As the demand for electric vehicles soars and more minerals are needed for production

Do you read your posts?

One post you say EVs are dead the next you say huge EV demand is taking a toll.

Pick one.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

21 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

Do you read your posts?

One post you say EVs are dead the next you say huge EV demand is taking a toll.

Pick one.

It's amazing you even breathe air correctly....then again that is merely a assumption.

Yes I've stated EV demand is dying a quick death, it's is you stating the "Huge" in demand. Odd is it not, EV demand peaked @7 % penetration and now that speed bump is not only disrupting world wide financial markets the toll on human health is Yuge! 

I leave with you.

 

[TailingsPond + 505]

45 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 

 

As the demand for electric vehicles soars

Your own posts says EV demand is soaring.

 

Do you read your own posts?

[TailingsPond + 505]

6 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

 

Yes I've stated EV demand is dying a quick death, it's is you stating the "Huge" in demand.

 

Look at your own post.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

3 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

Look at your own post.

Cut and paste your perception...lmao

[TailingsPond + 505]

3 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Cut and paste your perception.

Try to understand that the same people who complain about EV electricity drain, and pollution from mining minerals for EVs, are also saying that EV are on decline.

Can you not understand the logic conflict there?  If EV's are going away, then you do not have to worry about large drains on the electric network or new mining pollution.

It looks really silly to complain about a problem you say will not exist.

[turbguy + 1,436]

4 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Selling it back to the grid does not mean it needs to go further than the local household that is otherwise buying from the grid.

Beyond that, yes legislation is incoming.

While true that distributed generation may not have to "go very far", IF PENETRATION ISN'T TOO DEEP.

With significant penetration, your neighboring households are also now "sources" rather than "sinks", and generation must be being used at more distant realms.

When the output current from any distributed generation leaves your household, it FIRST, passes through a distribution transformer, to step the voltage up for the medium voltage distribution circuit, then passes through another distribution step-down transformer to supply any other household.

Reflect on the fact that distribution-level transformers are NOT designed to handle back-feed current anywhere near the same rating and lifetime when used in the "normal feed" direction.  The wind industry found that out the hard way, when they used distribution-level step-down transformers to step up output voltage to the grid, as a means to save a few bucks, since they are manufactured if much greater quantities than proper step-up transformers (that have a minuscule market).

They lost.

...and proper transformers ain't cheap.

Edited September 30, 2023 by turbguy

[turbguy + 1,436]

4 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

I don't think widespread "selling power back to the grid" is will happen much soon.

What I think will, or should, happen is better demand-side management and houses having their own personal power reserves be it a plugged in car or a powerbank type thing.  Anything generated by panels etc. stays "in house" and just reduces your demand.  

I gotta admit, as long as your EV (or any other power bank) is placed OUTSIDE your home, that could work.  You will need to select and dedicate circuits to solar system power within your home.  Or at LEAST have proper transfer switches in place when the sun goes down and any storage runs low.

While I realize that there are commercial offerings for home battery storage, I personally refuse to have a chemical battery storage system located within my residence. 

Eventually, EV's are going to require pre-fire detection systems, coupled with AI to disconnect and then move the EV to a safer location, hopefully being capable to open an automatic garage door first.

Regulations are coming. I don't know when, but they are coming.

Watch this space.

Edited September 30, 2023 by turbguy

[TailingsPond + 505]

9 hours ago, turbguy said:

Eventually, EV's are going to require pre-fire detection systems, coupled with AI to disconnect and then move the EV to a safer location, hopefully being capable to open an automatic garage door first.

 

They already have thermometers and volt meters which can adjust charging rate, increase cooling (fans), or sound alarms. 

The burning car actually driving itself out of the garage is a cool idea - and totally possible.

[TailingsPond + 505]

9 hours ago, turbguy said:

 

 I personally refuse to have a chemical battery storage system located within my residence. 

You know this is not true.

Your smartphone etc.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

24 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

You know this is not true.

Your smartphone etc.

It's a order of magnitude thingy..

1.Tailing Ponds

2. 

[Old-Ruffneck + 1,178]

No Energy Transition Unless Tech Can Make It Cost Competitive: BlackRock | OilPrice.com

 

This the reality of it all. Those so called intellectual thinkers on here live in a fantasy world where everythink is green. Some wealthier nations may adopt , but the majority of the world can't affort "green technology" and willl still burn coal and liquid fuels. 

You posters know who you are. Wake the fuck up already.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

14 hours ago, turbguy said:

While true that distributed generation may not have to "go very far", IF PENETRATION ISN'T TOO DEEP.

With significant penetration, your neighboring households are also now "sources" rather than "sinks", and generation must be being used at more distant realms.

When the output current from any distributed generation leaves your household, it FIRST, passes through a distribution transformer, to step the voltage up for the medium voltage distribution circuit, then passes through another distribution step-down transformer to supply any other household.

Reflect on the fact that distribution-level transformers are NOT designed to handle back-feed current anywhere near the same rating and lifetime when used in the "normal feed" direction.  The wind industry found that out the hard way, when they used distribution-level step-down transformers to step up output voltage to the grid, as a means to save a few bucks, since they are manufactured if much greater quantities than proper step-up transformers (that have a minuscule market).

They lost.

...and proper transformers ain't cheap.

Well everyone seems to be able to put solar panels on their roofs and that feeds back into the grid. How is using a battery to feed into the grid different? In California there is no technical requirement to send electricity to the grid:

California Assembly Bill 920 allows PG&E and other state utilities to offer payment for surplus energy sent back to the electric grid by your home or business’ renewable energy systems. Our NSC program is based on this bill. Get answers to queries about NSC.

You are automatically enrolled as an existing Net Energy Metering (NEM) customer. If your home generates surplus energy over the total 12-month True-up cycle, a credit will be added to your True-up bill.

[turbguy + 1,436]

6 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well everyone seems to be able to put solar panels on their roofs and that feeds back into the grid. How is using a battery to feed into the grid different? In California there is no technical requirement to send electricity to the grid:

Since both solar and battery require power electronic inverters to generate to the grid, there is not much difference,

When penetration reaches very high levels, these inverters better be of the "grid-forming" type, and distribution system issue will arise.

I am certain there are, at a minimum, technical safety requirements for an interconnect permit.

As far as I know, all counties and cities in California require permits for rooftop solar installations. The specific permitting process can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but all jurisdictions will require you to submit a permit application and pay a permit fee. Some jurisdictions may also require you to obtain a building permit or an electrical permit, or even both.

Here are some of the key technical requirements for connecting rooftop solar to the grid in CALISO:

• System size: Rooftop solar systems must be sized appropriately for the customer's electrical load and the capacity of the local electrical circuit.
• Interconnection equipment: Rooftop solar systems must be interconnected to the grid using approved interconnection equipment. This equipment includes a solar inverter, disconnect switches, and other safety devices.
• Metering: Rooftop solar systems must be equipped with a meter that measures the amount of electricity generated by the system. This meter allows the customer to be credited for the electricity they generate and sell back to the utility.
• Safety certification: Rooftop solar systems must be certified by a qualified testing laboratory to ensure that they meet all applicable safety standards.