GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[TailingsPond + 557]

On 11/17/2023 at 8:49 PM, Ecocharger said:

I think that you can rest assured that people do not buy a fossil fuel engine unless they plan to use it, and demand for those things remains strong.

See?

Edited November 20, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

3 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

No you said engine, he gave an example of a engine.

Nonsense, the claim was that purchasers of hybrids did not use their fossil fuel option....show some data to support that foolish idea.

Jay was just talking through his hat as usual.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 557]

1 minute ago, Ecocharger said:

Nonsense, the claim was that purchasers of hybrids did not use their fossil fuel option....show some data to support that foolish idea.

Plug in hybrids can avoid fossil fuel usage and many people would avoid using the fossil fuel option.  Electric energy is cheaper than gas.

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

2 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

Plug in hybrids can avoid fossil fuel usage and many people would avoid using the fossil fuel option.  Electric energy is cheaper than gas.

Nonsense, show us some data to support your mindless rants.

No one buys a fossil fuel vehicle engine and then not use it.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 557]

6 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

Nonsense, show us some data to support your mindless rants.

Almost $3000 a year in energy savings by avoiding gas usage.  You also don't need 4 oil changes for that 20,000Km.

https://electricvehicles.bchydro.com/learn/costs-of-electric-vehicles

Comparing fuel costs

Fuel costs are the most obvious way an EV can save you money over a gas-powered vehicle. Here's a fuel cost comparison to give you an idea. How much does it roughly cost to drive 20,000 kilometres a year?

• In a Chevy Bolt EV: around $478 (or $40/month) on electricity.
• In an equivalent gas-powered vehicle (Chevy Trax): around $3,340 (or $278/month) on gas.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

3 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

Almost $3000 a year in energy savings by avoiding gas usage.  You also don't need 4 oil changes for that 20,000Km.

https://electricvehicles.bchydro.com/learn/costs-of-electric-vehicles

Comparing fuel costs

Fuel costs are the most obvious way an EV can save you money over a gas-powered vehicle. Here's a fuel cost comparison to give you an idea. How much does it roughly cost to drive 20,000 kilometres a year?

• In a Chevy Bolt EV: around $478 (or $40/month) on electricity.
• In an equivalent gas-powered vehicle (Chevy Trax): around $3,340 (or $278/month) on gas.

 

No, that doesn't begin to provide support for your nonsense.

Show us data indicating that people with hybrids avoid using their fossil fuel function.

If there is any substance to your claims then you should be able to get some data on driver habits.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ecocharger

[notsonice + 1,168]

3 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Rob, spare us your personal logic.

Do you have any data whatsoever to support your claims that people who buy fossil fuel vehicles do not use the fossil fuel option? You have not shown us anything yet, old boy.

Rob, spare us your personal logic????
 

instead you post illogical BS here all the time...

 

maybe it is time for you to spare us your illogical personal BS views?????

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

On 11/17/2023 at 7:49 PM, Ecocharger said:

I think that you can rest assured that people do not buy a fossil fuel engine unless they plan to use it, and demand for those things remains strong.

I guess I missed your point by actually reading what you wrote. I gave you an example of fossil fuel engines that people buy with the hope of never using them. Exactly what you asked for!

As to PHEV well it is the most basic of economic principles, no data is needed. If you want to run a hybrid primarily on ICE then you will buy a much less expensive HEV that does not have a plug. If you spend extra to have a plug then you want to use the plug to make back your extra expense by using less expensive grid electricity. If you ever studied economics or simply had common sense or had a scintilla of honesty you would know that.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

I guess I missed your point by actually reading what you wrote. I gave you an example of fossil fuel engines that people buy with the hope of never using them. Exactly what you asked for!

As to PHEV well it is the most basic of economic principles, no data is needed. If you want to run a hybrid primarily on ICE then you will buy a much less expensive HEV that does not have a plug. If you spend extra to have a plug then you want to use the plug to make back your extra expense by using less expensive grid electricity. If you ever studied economics or simply had common sense or had a scintilla of honesty you would know that.

No, Jay, we were discussing fossil fuel engines in vehicles, and you seemed to think that people with plugin hybrids would ignore the fossil fuel engine and use only battery. Then I challenged you to show some data to support your claim and then , not surprisingly, you bailed out of the discussion.

So your ridiculous idea has no data support? I am not surprised to hear that.

[notsonice + 1,168]

5 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

No, Jay, we were discussing fossil fuel engines in vehicles, and you seemed to think that people with plugin hybrids would ignore the fossil fuel engine and use only battery. Then I challenged you to show some data to support your claim and then , not surprisingly, you bailed out of the discussion.

So your ridiculous idea has no data support? I am not surprised to hear that.

for a change why do you not post any data???? as usual all you do is post BS with nothing to back it

[TailingsPond + 557]

15 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

No, Jay, we were discussing fossil fuel engines in vehicles, and you seemed to think that people with plugin hybrids would ignore the fossil fuel engine and use only battery. Then I challenged you to show some data to support your claim and then , not surprisingly, you bailed out of the discussion.

So your ridiculous idea has no data support? I am not surprised to hear that.

They are not ignoring it at all - they are just avoiding it as much as possible because it is more expensive.

Simply imagine a cheapskate during a heat wave who refuses to turn on their home air conditioner.  Do you think they are ignoring their air conditioning unit? No, in fact they would like to use it but change their behaviours to save money.  No data is needed to understand this reality.

Similarly people often set their thermostats to low temperatures during the winter in order to save money.

"Put on a sweater!"  

Edited November 21, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

15 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Rob, spare us your personal logic.

Do you have any data whatsoever to support your claims that people who buy fossil fuel vehicles do not use the fossil fuel option? You have not shown us anything yet, old boy.

I am presuming you mean people who buy PHEV's

Why in Gods name would you use the ICE when it costs loads more than the battery?? Only a moron would do that. In any case in a PHEV the battery kicks in anyway unless you specifically choose ICE only which makes zero sense at it massively reduces your MPG.

These arent my personal claims just common sense and how PHEV's actually work!

You have shown zero facts or logic as to why the ICE would be used in preference to the cheaper battery, so here's your chance to show me and everyone else why you should. lets see what you can come up with other than deflection.

 

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

15 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Nonsense, show us some data to support your mindless rants.

No one buys a fossil fuel vehicle engine and then not use it.

TailingsPond has provided you with that now and yet you have no argument back, hmmm wonder why that is?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

On 11/20/2023 at 9:52 AM, Ecocharger said:

Nonsense, the claim was that purchasers of hybrids did not use their fossil fuel option....show some data to support that foolish idea.

Jay was just talking through his hat as usual.

No I said they try not to use the ICE.It is a backup for the longer drives.

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

16 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

They are not ignoring it at all - they are just avoiding it as much as possible because it is more expensive.

Simply imagine a cheapskate during a heat wave who refuses to turn on their home air conditioner.  Do you think they are ignoring their air conditioning unit? No, in fact they would like to use it but change their behaviours to save money.  No data is needed to understand this reality.

Similarly people often set their thermostats to low temperatures during the winter in order to save money.

"Put on a sweater!"  

What evidence do you have that they are ignoring it? You failed to show any data the last time I asked  you.

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

13 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

I am presuming you mean people who buy PHEV's

Why in Gods name would you use the ICE when it costs loads more than the battery?? Only a moron would do that. In any case in a PHEV the battery kicks in anyway unless you specifically choose ICE only which makes zero sense at it massively reduces your MPG.

These arent my personal claims just common sense and how PHEV's actually work!

You have shown zero facts or logic as to why the ICE would be used in preference to the cheaper battery, so here's your chance to show me and everyone else why you should. lets see what you can come up with other than deflection.

 

You have shown zero data to support your contention that people would avoid the fossil fuel option in the plugins....what makes you think that this is actually happening?

There should be some data on usage for plugin owners, so show us something to support your convictions.

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

26 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

No I said they try not to use the ICE.It is a backup for the longer drives.

And again, I challenged you to show some data to indicate how that usage is actually played out.

Otherwise you are just talking through your hat again.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

6 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

And again, I challenged you to show some data to indicate how that usage is actually played out.

Otherwise you are just talking through your hat again.

Well since you are incapable of doing economic research and showing your own data since you know you are wrong here ya go. 

It all comes down to the electric only range of the vehicle. The longer the electric range the more miles driven on electricity. It is a direct correlation. This fact destroys your position. The more electric range that is available the more the car is driven on grid electricity.

The average daily drive in the US is 37 miles so if people are maximizing their battery use then we should see cars with 37 mile electric range at 50% power share. And surprise surprise that is exactly what we see!!!

Until just recently most PHEV were in the 15-25 mile range now they are moving into the 30-40 mile range. They will be 50+ in a few years as the California ICE ban begins to take effect. It requires a minimum 50 mile electric range.

I'm sure this will have to be explained to you over and over and over...

 

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf

Again, the key to note is that the X axis is electric only range and the Y axis is the percent of miles driven in electric only mode. The more electric miles available the more they are a percentage of usage. This means that people are indeed choosing electric mode over ICE mode if the choice is available. Seems basic economic principles are again proven correct and Eco the non-economist wrong. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

Giant batteries drain economics of gas power plants

LONDON, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Giant batteries that ensure stable power supply by offsetting intermittent renewable supplies are becoming cheap enough to make developers abandon scores of projects for gas-fired generation world-wide.

The long-term economics of gas-fired plants, used in Europe and some parts of the United States primarily to compensate for the intermittent nature of wind and solar power, are changing quickly, according to Reuters' interviews with more than a dozen power plant developers, project finance bankers, analysts and consultants.

They said some battery operators are already supplying back-up power to grids at a price competitive with gas power plants, meaning gas will be used less.

The shift challenges assumptions about long-term gas demand and could mean natural gas has a smaller role in the energy transition than posited by the biggest, listed energy majors.

In the first half of the year, 68 gas power plant projects were put on hold or cancelled globally, according to data provided exclusively to Reuters by U.S.-based non-profit Global Energy Monitor.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/giant-batteries-drain-economics-gas-power-plants-2023-11-21/

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well since you are incapable of doing economic research and showing your own data since you know you are wrong here ya go. 

It all comes down to the electric only range of the vehicle. The longer the electric range the more miles driven on electricity. It is a direct correlation. This fact destroys your position. The more electric range that is available the more the car is driven on grid electricity.

The average daily drive in the US is 37 miles so if people are maximizing their battery use then we should see cars with 37 mile electric range at 50% power share. And surprise surprise that is exactly what we see!!!

Until just recently most PHEV were in the 15-25 mile range now they are moving into the 30-40 mile range. They will be 50+ in a few years as the California ICE ban begins to take effect. It requires a minimum 50 mile electric range.

I'm sure this will have to be explained to you over and over and over...

 

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf

Again, the key to note is that the X axis is electric only range and the Y axis is the percent of miles driven in electric only mode. The more electric miles available the more they are a percentage of usage. This means that people are indeed choosing electric mode over ICE mode if the choice is available. Seems basic economic principles are again proven correct and Eco the non-economist wrong. 

You are full of jokes again. The findings of this study are not consistent with Green policies. Looks like PHEV drivers are still reliant heavily on fossil fuels.

You somehow skipped this,

"The analysis in this paper arrives at the following conclusions: Real-world electric drive share may be 26%–56% lower and real-world fuel consumption may be 42%–67% higher than assumed within EPA’s labeling program for light duty vehicles. We find that current PHEVs show electric drive shares much lower than assumed in EPA labeling. Figure ES1 shows the regulatory label curve of drive share during charge-depleting mode (black), or utility factor, in comparison to the new Fuelly (blue) and BAR (orange) datasets. Each circle represents data for one vehicle model, and the larger the circle, the greater the sample size for that model. The best-fit utility factor curves for each dataset are shown in their respective color. Despite the different methods for estimating utility factor between the two datasets, the resulting best-fit curves show similar trends. These new datasets present strong evidence that real-world electric drive share is far below the utility factor label rating. A consequence of this comparatively low electric drive share is that real world fuel consumption is 42%–67% higher than EPA label fuel consumption."

And this,

"Recent studies with user data from over 20,000 European PHEVs have shown that, in real-world usage conditions, the EDS of PHEVs falls far short of the UF curve assumed in the WLTP (Plötz et al., 2020; Plötz et al., 2022). For PHEVs owned by private individuals, the real-world fuel consumption is on average three times higher than the official WLTP values, while for company car PHEVs the fuel consumption is on average five times higher. Moreover, despite an increasing electric range and more public charging infrastructure, the deviation between real-world and official fuel consumption of PHEVs in Europe is observed to be growing."

"In effect, the emissions benefit of PHEVs in Europe is much less than assumed to qualify for the substantial purchase subsidies and further tax incentives (Bieker et al., 2022). In addition, the unrealistic CO2 emission values of PHEVs allow manufacturers to comply with the European Commission’s CO2 standards without appropriately reducing emissions. Compared to meeting the CO2 standards by truly reducing the fuel consumption of combustion engine cars or deploying a higher share of battery electric vehicles, a higher share of PHEVs corresponds to an increase of real-world and life-cycle emissions (Bieker, 2022b). On average, each newly registered PHEV in Europe corresponds to additional emissions of 10 to 15 metric tons of CO2 (Federal Environmental Agency, 2021)."

 

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

5 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well since you are incapable of doing economic research and showing your own data since you know you are wrong here ya go. 

It all comes down to the electric only range of the vehicle. The longer the electric range the more miles driven on electricity. It is a direct correlation. This fact destroys your position. The more electric range that is available the more the car is driven on grid electricity.

The average daily drive in the US is 37 miles so if people are maximizing their battery use then we should see cars with 37 mile electric range at 50% power share. And surprise surprise that is exactly what we see!!!

Until just recently most PHEV were in the 15-25 mile range now they are moving into the 30-40 mile range. They will be 50+ in a few years as the California ICE ban begins to take effect. It requires a minimum 50 mile electric range.

I'm sure this will have to be explained to you over and over and over...

 

https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-phev-us-dec22.pdf

Again, the key to note is that the X axis is electric only range and the Y axis is the percent of miles driven in electric only mode. The more electric miles available the more they are a percentage of usage. This means that people are indeed choosing electric mode over ICE mode if the choice is available. Seems basic economic principles are again proven correct and Eco the non-economist wrong. 

Sorry, Jay, but there seems to be a large disagreement on whether or not PHEVs reduce gasoline usage.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/22/plug-in-hybrids-use-more-gas-than-estimated-dieselgate-whistleblower-says/

"Plug-in hybrids use far more gasoline in the real world than regulatory agencies account for, according to a new analysis of data by the International Council on Clean Transportation, the research group that broke the Volkswagen dieselgate scandal.

The ICCT analyzed data both from Fuelly, an app which helps drivers track their fuel efficiency, and from the California Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR). It then compared this data to regulatory agency estimates and found that PHEVs are not driving on electric power nearly as often as the EPA had assumed they are."

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

Sorry, Jay, but there seems to be a large disagreement on whether or not PHEVs reduce gasoline usage.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/22/plug-in-hybrids-use-more-gas-than-estimated-dieselgate-whistleblower-says/

"Plug-in hybrids use far more gasoline in the real world than regulatory agencies account for, according to a new analysis of data by the International Council on Clean Transportation, the research group that broke the Volkswagen dieselgate scandal.

The ICCT analyzed data both from Fuelly, an app which helps drivers track their fuel efficiency, and from the California Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR). It then compared this data to regulatory agency estimates and found that PHEVs are not driving on electric power nearly as often as the EPA had assumed they are."

That is of course irrelevant because your argument was not that they were driving on electricity as much as the EPA estimated. Your argument was that people were still using ICE over prevalence for plug in grid power in their PHEV. The report clearly shows that they are driving their PHEV on electricity to the extent the battery allows . Which was my complete argument. 

Yes the EPA overestimated and that is irrelevant (They are famous for getting everything about renewables adoption wrong! Apparently they are hiring incompetent economists from your alma matter). The report clearly shows that people are driving their PHEV to the extent possible based on the electric battery range of the vehicle. They are only using ICE when the battery runs out. Your argument is demolished!!!

As to Europe, which is not the USA that we have been discussing - Yes that is because of oddities in their system of company cars and misaligned subsidies which has now been fixed in the past year because of reports like this(and why PHEV sales in Germany are down 50% ). But that of course is not in the data yet and this data was just the US.

The average daily drive in the US is 37 miles so if people are maximizing their battery use then we should see cars with 37 mile electric range at 50% power share. And surprise surprise that is exactly what we see!!!

If a PHEV has 20-25 miles electric range then we should see 30-35% electric power share if users are maximizing use of charging and that is exactly what we see!!!!!!!!

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

10 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

You have shown zero data to support your contention that people would avoid the fossil fuel option in the plugins....what makes you think that this is actually happening?

There should be some data on usage for plugin owners, so show us something to support your convictions.

For Gods sake man as Ive already told you thats how PHEV's work! When you are driving a PHEV the battery will automatically be used when you pull away from a junction or when you accelerate and when you break it charges the battery back up. Generally the car will automatically be trying to use as much battery as it can without draining it too rapidly, and thats when ICE kicks in. However if you want to most PHEV's have the option choose all electric or all ICE as well, so its drivers choice.

As Ive already stated because of massively improving MPG and the cost differential between battery and ICE you would always want to use the battery as much as possible. This is a fact and blatant common sense unless you love wasting money unnecessarily!

If you insist on data for that then look up the definitions stupid, idiotic, and moron as those are the only ones who would choose ICE.

 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

9 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

For Gods sake man as Ive already told you thats how PHEV's work! When you are driving a PHEV the battery will automatically be used when you pull away from a junction or when you accelerate and when you break it charges the battery back up. Generally the car will automatically be trying to use as much battery as it can without draining it too rapidly, and thats when ICE kicks in. However if you want to most PHEV's have the option choose all electric or all ICE as well, so its drivers choice.

As Ive already stated because of massively improving MPG and the cost differential between battery and ICE you would always want to use the battery as much as possible. This is a fact and blatant common sense unless you love wasting money unnecessarily!

If you insist on data for that then look up the definitions stupid, idiotic, and moron as those are the only ones who would choose ICE.

 

And you continue to conflate HEV with PHEV. Everything you describe about operation is as true of an ICE powered HEV as a grid powered PHEV with an ICE backup. The distinction between the two is only the plug from the grid.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

1 minute ago, Jay McKinsey said:

And you continue to conflate HEV with PHEV. Everything you describe about operation is as true of an ICE powered HEV as a grid powered PHEV with an iCE backup. The distinction between the two is only the plug from the grid.

Theyre both hybrids ffs