GREEN NEW DEAL = BLIZZARD OF LIES

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

10 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Theyre both hybrids ffs

Very different types of hybrids, if you mated any car with a buffalo it would still be a hybrid.

Dictionary

Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

 

 

 

 

 

hy·brid

/ˈhīˌbrid/

noun

 

1. 1.

   the offspring of two plants or animals of different species or varieties, such as a mule (a hybrid of a donkey and a horse).

   "the bird was a hybrid of a goose and a swan"

In the case at hand, one is powered only by ICE and the other can be powered only by the grid. What don't you understand? Because you just keep blowing up the entire argument and handing low hanging ammunition to eco and crew.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

4 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

One is powered only by ICE and the other can be powered only by the grid.

No HEV's are powered by ICE as the ICE helps recharge the battery along with regenerative breaking and PHEV's are powered by the battery recharged by plugging in to the mains supply and its ICE.

So they are 2 different types of hybrid, and I was specifically referring to PHEV's in my comment to ECO

BUT THEY ARE BOTH HYBRIDS!

The clue is in the H in their acronym!

I think youre getting mixed up with parallel hybrids and series hybrids

Your argument that PHEV's are giving ECO more ammunition is the wrong way round as you have to use ICE for a HEV car to recharge the battery, but it does improve MPG. However PHEV's you plug in and dont ever have to use ICE if you dont need to.

Agree?

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

1 minute ago, Rob Plant said:

No HEV's are powered by ICE as the ICE helps recharge the battery along with regenerative breaking and PHEV's are powered by the battery recharged by plugging in to the mains supply and its ICE.

So they are 2 different types of hybrid, and I was specifically referring to PHEV's in my comment to ECO

BUT THEY ARE BOTH HYBRIDS!

The clue is in the H in their acronym!

I think youre getting mixed up with parallel hybrids and series hybrids

Your argument that PHEV's are giving ECO more ammunition is the wrong way round as you have to use ICE for a HEV car to recharge the battery, but it does improve MPG. However PHEV's you plug in and dont ever have to use ICE if you dont need to.

Agree?

What are you talking about?? My entire post was saying that HEV and PHEV are very different because PHEV can be recharged from the grid. So you restate my post except that you claim you were talking about PHEV when you never used that term or the term pug-in while knowing full well if you just say hybrid that in the industry that means a non-plug ICE powered car. 

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

On 11/21/2023 at 9:05 AM, Rob Plant said:

I am presuming you mean people who buy PHEV's

Why in Gods name would you use the ICE when it costs loads more than the battery?? Only a moron would do that. In any case in a PHEV the battery kicks in anyway unless you specifically choose ICE only which makes zero sense at it massively reduces your MPG.

These arent my personal claims just common sense and how PHEV's actually work!

You have shown zero facts or logic as to why the ICE would be used in preference to the cheaper battery, so here's your chance to show me and everyone else why you should. lets see what you can come up with other than deflection.

 

Jay you say I never mentioned PHEV's 

Look again old man! Can you spot it in there or have you sat on your glasses?

Anyway I'm tired of this BS, Ive proven your BS statement to be false so lets move on.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Rob Plant

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

On 11/20/2023 at 9:04 AM, Rob Plant said:

"no one drives on Saturdays or Sundays"

Dont go to a game of football or baseball, dont take the kids out or go to the mall or the park, never take the wife our for a meal at the weekend or catch up with your mates (oh wait yeah I forgot you probably have none)???

hahahahaha really? they all stay home and do nothing! Maybe theryre all in care homes like yourself? Your life sucks!!!!

Daily miles driven in the US per driver is 25.9 according to this back in 2017 and that number is dropping.

Daily miles of travel per driver in the United States 2017 | Statista

So to use your logic that no one drives at the weekend (which is obviously wrong) equates to 36.26 miles a week (5 working days) so they'd have to drive on ICE for 12.5 miles on a round trip of 72.52 miles. Note this is "per driver" so you public transport BS is meaningless!

Do you still think a PHEV is mostly used as an ICE vehicle?

Oh there was this as well!

[Jay McKinsey + 1,489]

3 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

Jay you say I never mentioned PHEV's 

Look again old man! Can you spot it in there or have you sat on your glasses?

Anyway I'm tired of this BS, Ive proven your BS statement to be false so lets move on.

Of course you are tired and want this to go away  because you then  dragged up days old irrelevant posts where you happened to mention PHEV completely incongruous to the current comments. 

You restated my comments in your post as your own and claimed that I was saying the opposite!!!!!!

To say I was getting confused by parallel and series hybrids is idiotic!!

You never mentioned PHEV or Plug-in in your posts of today.

Regenerative braking is irrelevant. The energy it is recapturing either came from the grid or ICE. Clearly you do not understand what is going on here. The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. This means that a system always has the same amount of energy, unless it's added from the outside.

It is crystal clear what you did.  Here it is again from a few posts above:

Again, in your post you acknowledge that they are 2 different hybrids, exactly what i said in my post, and then you refuse to acknowledge that they have two distinct names. 

What is wrong with you?

The plain auto hybrid name came about because it came first so it gets to be called just hybrid. All subsequent hybrids have to be distinguished by a different name. FCEV is also a hybrid but it is called by a different name. Absolutely no one calls it just a hybrid. Although by your definition it should.

I guess you think a hinny and a mule are the same hybrid thing?

Face it, you are a sales guy, I have known only one sales guy who was accused of being smart about anything but sales. In fact my experience is that you guys are otherwise as dumb as they come. 

Back when I was the business manager for the hottest supercomputer business division in Si Valley (my customers were a who's who of the military industrial complex and almost every national lab, I had a black budget, I just dropped my division expenses into an obscure unlabeled slot no questions asked, yes it was the 90's) we went on a retreat that included a tour of the history of the California desert that was super intellectual, set up by my superiors, and the sales guys were nothing but indigant puking jackasses. Never seen anything different. Thinking about it I know exactly one sales guy, as mentioned above, who unfortunately never worked for me that is actually intelligent.

I of course do not include my sales engineers who were the smart core of real sales and marketing activity. A completely different group.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Jay McKinsey

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

1 hour ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Of course you are tired and want this to go away  because you then  dragged up days old irrelevant posts where you happened to mention PHEV completely incongruous to the current comments. 

You restated my comments in your post as your own and claimed that I was saying the opposite!!!!!!

To say I was getting confused by parallel and series hybrids is idiotic!!

You never mentioned PHEV or Plug-in in your posts of today.

Regenerative braking is irrelevant. The energy it is recapturing either came from the grid or ICE. Clearly you do not understand what is going on here. The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. This means that a system always has the same amount of energy, unless it's added from the outside.

It is crystal clear what you did.  Here it is again from a few posts above:

Again, in your post you acknowledge that they are 2 different hybrids, exactly what i said in my post, and then you refuse to acknowledge that they have two distinct names. 

What is wrong with you?

The plain auto hybrid name came about because it came first so it gets to be called just hybrid. All subsequent hybrids have to be distinguished by a different name. FCEV is also a hybrid but it is called by a different name. Absolutely no one calls it just a hybrid. Although by your definition it should.

I guess you think a hinny and a mule are the same hybrid thing?

Face it, you are a sales guy, I have known only one sales guy who was accused of being smart about anything but sales. In fact my experience is that you guys are otherwise as dumb as they come. 

Back when I was the business manager for the hottest supercomputer business division in Si Valley (my customers were a who's who of the military industrial complex and almost every national lab, I had a black budget, I just dropped my division expenses into an obscure unlabeled slot no questions asked, yes it was the 90's) we went on a retreat that included a tour of the history of the California desert that was super intellectual, set up by my superiors, and the sales guys were nothing but indigant puking jackasses. Never seen anything different. Thinking about it I know exactly one sales guy, as mentioned above, who unfortunately never worked for me that is actually intelligent.

I of course do not include my sales engineers who were the smart core of real sales and marketing activity. A completely different group.

 

God youre tedious and full of BS!

I clearly point out I have been referring to PHEV's for days when you lie and say Ive never mentioned them and then I prove youre wrong which you cant deny and you come up with all sorts of BS, so youre either a liar or you cant read. Its one or the other and thats a fact!

Why arent you retired old man?

Never been successful in business? I thought not!

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Rob Plant

[Polyphia + 77]

While

22 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

God youre tedious and full of BS!

I clearly point out I have been referring to PHEV's for days when you lie and say Ive never mentioned them and then I prove youre wrong which you cant deny and you come up with all sorts of BS, so youre either a liar or you cant read. Its one or the other and thats a fact!

Why arent you retired old man?

Never been successful in business? I thought not!

 

While I truly enjoy what you (Rob and Jay) post, this latest set of back-and-forths has made me wonder--did Eco hack both of your accounts and start to carry out a conversation with himself?

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

8 minutes ago, Polyphia said:

While

While I truly enjoy what you (Rob and Jay) post, this latest set of back-and-forths has made me wonder--did Eco hack both of your accounts and start to carry out a conversation with himself?

You make a valid point, and the back and forth demeans us both!

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:49 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

That is of course irrelevant because your argument was not that they were driving on electricity as much as the EPA estimated. Your argument was that people were still using ICE over prevalence for plug in grid power in their PHEV. The report clearly shows that they are driving their PHEV on electricity to the extent the battery allows . Which was my complete argument. 

Yes the EPA overestimated and that is irrelevant (They are famous for getting everything about renewables adoption wrong! Apparently they are hiring incompetent economists from your alma matter). The report clearly shows that people are driving their PHEV to the extent possible based on the electric battery range of the vehicle. They are only using ICE when the battery runs out. Your argument is demolished!!!

As to Europe, which is not the USA that we have been discussing - Yes that is because of oddities in their system of company cars and misaligned subsidies which has now been fixed in the past year because of reports like this(and why PHEV sales in Germany are down 50% ). But that of course is not in the data yet and this data was just the US.

The average daily drive in the US is 37 miles so if people are maximizing their battery use then we should see cars with 37 mile electric range at 50% power share. And surprise surprise that is exactly what we see!!!

If a PHEV has 20-25 miles electric range then we should see 30-35% electric power share if users are maximizing use of charging and that is exactly what we see!!!!!!!!

No the point is that public policy is dedicated to reducing CO2 based on patently false premises.

"Recent studies with user data from over 20,000 European PHEVs have shown that, in real-world usage conditions, the EDS of PHEVs falls far short of the UF curve assumed in the WLTP (Plötz et al., 2020; Plötz et al., 2022). For PHEVs owned by private individuals, the real-world fuel consumption is on average three times higher than the official WLTP values, while for company car PHEVs the fuel consumption is on average five times higher. Moreover, despite an increasing electric range and more public charging infrastructure, the deviation between real-world and official fuel consumption of PHEVs in Europe is observed to be growing."

"In effect, the emissions benefit of PHEVs in Europe is much less than assumed to qualify for the substantial purchase subsidies and further tax incentives (Bieker et al., 2022). In addition, the unrealistic CO2 emission values of PHEVs allow manufacturers to comply with the European Commission’s CO2 standards without appropriately reducing emissions. Compared to meeting the CO2 standards by truly reducing the fuel consumption of combustion engine cars or deploying a higher share of battery electric vehicles, a higher share of PHEVs corresponds to an increase of real-world and life-cycle emissions (Bieker, 2022b). On average, each newly registered PHEV in Europe corresponds to additional emissions of 10 to 15 metric tons of CO2 (Federal Environmental Agency, 2021)."

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

No the point is that public policy is dedicated to reducing CO2 based on patently false premises.

"Recent studies with user data from over 20,000 European PHEVs have shown that, in real-world usage conditions, the EDS of PHEVs falls far short of the UF curve assumed in the WLTP (Plötz et al., 2020; Plötz et al., 2022). For PHEVs owned by private individuals, the real-world fuel consumption is on average three times higher than the official WLTP values, while for company car PHEVs the fuel consumption is on average five times higher. Moreover, despite an increasing electric range and more public charging infrastructure, the deviation between real-world and official fuel consumption of PHEVs in Europe is observed to be growing."

"In effect, the emissions benefit of PHEVs in Europe is much less than assumed to qualify for the substantial purchase subsidies and further tax incentives (Bieker et al., 2022). In addition, the unrealistic CO2 emission values of PHEVs allow manufacturers to comply with the European Commission’s CO2 standards without appropriately reducing emissions. Compared to meeting the CO2 standards by truly reducing the fuel consumption of combustion engine cars or deploying a higher share of battery electric vehicles, a higher share of PHEVs corresponds to an increase of real-world and life-cycle emissions (Bieker, 2022b). On average, each newly registered PHEV in Europe corresponds to additional emissions of 10 to 15 metric tons of CO2 (Federal Environmental Agency, 2021)."

No you kept asking for data that showed how much people drove on the battery, as you claimed all hybrids were ICE which theyre not.

That has now been given to you by Jay and shows that people max out the battery (no surprise as its way cheaper to do so)

Your most recent post is a defelection

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

13 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

No you kept asking for data that showed how much people drove on the battery, as you claimed all hybrids were ICE which theyre not.

That has now been given to you by Jay and shows that people max out the battery (no surprise as its way cheaper to do so)

Your most recent post is a defelection

No, the issue of the article was and is public policy assumptions, which are too optimistic for plug-ins and EVs.

Jay was the one who was trying to deflect away from the focus of the article. You have it backwards, Rob.

Read,

"Recent studies with user data from over 20,000 European PHEVs have shown that, in real-world usage conditions, the EDS of PHEVs falls far short of the UF curve assumed in the WLTP (Plötz et al., 2020; Plötz et al., 2022). For PHEVs owned by private individuals, the real-world fuel consumption is on average three times higher than the official WLTP values, while for company car PHEVs the fuel consumption is on average five times higher. Moreover, despite an increasing electric range and more public charging infrastructure, the deviation between real-world and official fuel consumption of PHEVs in Europe is observed to be growing."

"In effect, the emissions benefit of PHEVs in Europe is much less than assumed to qualify for the substantial purchase subsidies and further tax incentives (Bieker et al., 2022). In addition, the unrealistic CO2 emission values of PHEVs allow manufacturers to comply with the European Commission’s CO2 standards without appropriately reducing emissions. Compared to meeting the CO2 standards by truly reducing the fuel consumption of combustion engine cars or deploying a higher share of battery electric vehicles, a higher share of PHEVs corresponds to an increase of real-world and life-cycle emissions (Bieker, 2022b). On average, each newly registered PHEV in Europe corresponds to additional emissions of 10 to 15 metric tons of CO2 (Federal Environmental Agency, 2021)."

Edited November 23, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

EV sales have hit a brick wall with EV unsold inventory piling up unsold in American sales lots.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/US-EV-Market-To-Cross-Million-Unit-Mark-in-2023-As-Demand-Slows.html

".... there remains an inventory problem, with EV stockpiles up 506% from a year ago, while electric vehicles linger on lots for long periods of time, according to an October report from CarGurus, signaling slowing demand. "

Edited November 23, 2023 by Ecocharger

[TailingsPond + 557]

11 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

EV sales have hit a brick wall with EV unsold inventory piling up unsold in American sales lots.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/US-EV-Market-To-Cross-Million-Unit-Mark-in-2023-As-Demand-Slows.html

".... there remains an inventory problem, with EV stockpiles up 506% from a year ago, while electric vehicles linger on lots for long periods of time, according to an October report from CarGurus, signaling slowing demand. "

If you actually read the whole article it says EV sales are setting records.  Growth is growth, remember?   

"sales of electric vehicles in the United States will clock in at 1.3-1.4 million units in the current year, marking the first time ever EV sales in the country have crossed the 1-million mark.

If that estimate turns out to be accurate, it will mean 9% of new car sales in 2023 are electric compared to 7.3% in 2022."

Edited November 24, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

1 hour ago, TailingsPond said:

If you actually read the whole article it says EV sales are setting records.  Growth is growth, remember?   

China dumping cheap EV'S will not save the decline, but only hasten the demise. The next few months should be hilarious, 

We want a European Green Deal, not a Chinese one!” Weber said in response to von der Leyen’s speech. “We don’t want to see Chinese electric vehicles benefiting from our ambitious climate approach,” he added.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/electric-cars/news/von-der-leyen-faces-pushback-for-chinese-electric-vehicle-investigation/

Edited November 24, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

14 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

China dumping cheap EV'S will not save the decline, but only hasten the demise.

How does this reflect on the YOY growth in the US market that TailingsPond stated above as to my knowledge no Chinese EV's are on sale there yet?

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

16 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

China dumping cheap EV'S will not save the decline, but only hasten the demise. The next few months should be hilarious, 

We want a European Green Deal, not a Chinese one!” Weber said in response to von der Leyen’s speech. “We don’t want to see Chinese electric vehicles benefiting from our ambitious climate approach,” he added.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/electric-cars/news/von-der-leyen-faces-pushback-for-chinese-electric-vehicle-investigation/

Protecting the huge auto manufacturers in Europe is obviously a big issue to Europeans as it would be with any cheaper product ie cheap steel. Import duties are clearly going to be imposed on companies like BYD.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

7 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

Protecting the huge auto manufacturers in Europe is obviously a big issue to Europeans as it would be with any cheaper product ie cheap steel. Import duties are clearly going to be imposed on companies like BYD.

It would seem Germany, Sweden  and the UK I believe have formed a alliance with China...China does not deal with betrayal lightly...Covid comes to mind.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,550]

28 minutes ago, Rob Plant said:

How does this reflect on the YOY growth in the US market that TailingsPond stated above as to my knowledge no Chinese EV's are on sale there yet?

Read closely. One statement of fact and one statement of speculation and conjecture.

If you actually read the whole article it says EV sales are setting records.  Growth is growth, remember?   

[ China dumping 350000 in the EU.

 

"sales of electric vehicles in the United States will clock in at 1.3-1.4 million units in the current year, marking the first time ever EV sales in the country have crossed the 1-million mark.

Ohh plzz...LMAO that's 400k in two months!

Edited November 24, 2023 by Eyes Wide Open

[Rob Plant + 2,694]

3 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

It would seem Germany, Sweden  and the UK I believe have formed a alliance with China...China does not deal with betrayal lightly...Covid comes to mind.

The UK isnt in the EU so will do their own thing with China, frankly I dont care what Germany and Sweden do.

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

10 hours ago, TailingsPond said:

If you actually read the whole article it says EV sales are setting records.  Growth is growth, remember?   

"sales of electric vehicles in the United States will clock in at 1.3-1.4 million units in the current year, marking the first time ever EV sales in the country have crossed the 1-million mark.

If that estimate turns out to be accurate, it will mean 9% of new car sales in 2023 are electric compared to 7.3% in 2022."

If you read the article it says that recent sales of EVs have stalled in a major way.

In case you didn't know, "slowing demand" means "slowing demand".

EVs unsold inventory is piling up unsold in American sales lots.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/US-EV-Market-To-Cross-Million-Unit-Mark-in-2023-As-Demand-Slows.html

".... there remains an inventory problem, with EV stockpiles up 506% from a year ago, while electric vehicles linger on lots for long periods of time, according to an October report from CarGurus, signaling slowing demand. "

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ecocharger

[notsonice + 1,168]

10 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

If you read the article it says that recent sales of EVs have stalled in a major way.

In case you didn't know, "slowing demand" means "slowing demand".

EVs unsold inventory is piling up unsold in American sales lots.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/US-EV-Market-To-Cross-Million-Unit-Mark-in-2023-As-Demand-Slows.html

".... there remains an inventory problem, with EV stockpiles up 506% from a year ago, while electric vehicles linger on lots for long periods of time, according to an October report from CarGurus, signaling slowing demand. "

and yet sales are increasing and demand is increasing..........

Rome was not built overnight........

Evs are getting less expensive with time..........basic economics Price goes down and demand goes up

Enjoy the transition

Edited November 24, 2023 by notsonice

[TailingsPond + 557]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

If you read the article it says that recent sales of EVs have stalled in a major way.

Slowed growth is still growth.  Record sales are record sales. Do not call up down.  

Funny how you would understand this concept if it was about oil. 

If you don't like the actual data in the articles don't post them!

FYI 7.3 percentage points to 9% percentage points is a 23.3 percent YOY growth in sales fraction.  This also means ICE lost that portion of market share. 

For those weak in math percentage points and percent are different.  (9 - 7.3)/7.3 = 0.233

Edited November 24, 2023 by TailingsPond

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

30 minutes ago, TailingsPond said:

Slowed growth is still growth.  Record sales are record sales. Do not call up down.  

Funny how you would understand this concept if it was about oil. 

If you don't like the actual data in the articles don't post them!

FYI 7.3 percentage points to 9% percentage points is a 23.3 percent YOY growth in sales fraction.  This also means ICE lost that portion of market share. 

For those weak in math percentage points and percent are different.  (9 - 7.3)/7.3 = 0.233

You are missing the current trend by looking at annual changes.

Currently  "there remains an inventory problem, with EV stockpiles up 506% from a year ago, while electric vehicles linger on lots for long periods of time", whereas fossil fuel vehicles are still selling well without any inventory problems.

That means bad news for the EVs piling up on sales lots. Inventory buildups translate into production declines and market share loss.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,401]

10 hours ago, Rob Plant said:

How does this reflect on the YOY growth in the US market that TailingsPond stated above as to my knowledge no Chinese EV's are on sale there yet?

Rob, there are current EV sales problems in the U.S. with giant inventory buildups of EVs.

And as I pointed out above, there is no policy reason to promote hybrids,

 "For PHEVs owned by private individuals, the real-world fuel consumption is on average three times higher than the official WLTP values, while for company car PHEVs the fuel consumption is on average five times higher. Moreover, despite an increasing electric range and more public charging infrastructure, the deviation between real-world and official fuel consumption of PHEVs in Europe is observed to be GROWING."

So just as I claimed above, as we get more range to electric vehicles and increased public recharging, the consumption of fossil fuels by PHEVs actually increases relative to the expected projection. That is the reality.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Ecocharger