Rob Plant + 2,656 RP January 12 14 hours ago, Ecocharger said: So you just picked one random disaster from 2010? Just random, right? You did not pick it because it just happened to be the worst ever disaster? Are you sure about that.? https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/oil-and-chemical-spills/oil-spills/largest-oil-spills-affecting-us-waters-1969.html "Thousands of oil spills occur in U.S. waters each year, but most are small in size, spilling less than one barrel of oil. Yet since the iconic 1969 oil well blowout in Santa Barbara, California, there have been at least 44 oil spills, each over 10,000 barrels (420,000 gallons), affecting U.S. waters. The largest of which was the 2010 Deepwater Horizon well blowout in the Gulf of Mexico." Okay, so why don't we see a lot more dangerous spills? There should be more of those 2010 examples showing up, that was about 14 years ago. As a matter of fact, Rob, I do not see any spill on this list since 2010....what happened to your thesis? If you want to be US specific on oil spills since 2010 then here you go, but I'm sick of doing the research for your lazy ass, so next time you try looking for a change! Nearly 9 million gallons of crude oil have spilled from pipelines in the United States since 2010. As Bajak writes, the 1,300 crude oil spills since 2010 amounts to one every other day. How Much Oil Has Spilled From US Pipelines Since 2010 (businessinsider.com) You probably dont think this is significant either! Then consider that the US produces about 10-12% of oil globally and multiply up these spills! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,656 RP January 12 Then there's this Consistently unreliable: Oil spill data and transparency discourse Consistently unreliable: Oil spill data and transparency discourse - PMC (nih.gov) Another widely cited source is a 2011 study published by the Woodrow Wilson Center. This estimates 546 million gallons were spilled in Nigeria . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old-Ruffneck + 1,178 er January 12 4 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Then there's this Consistently unreliable: Oil spill data and transparency discourse Consistently unreliable: Oil spill data and transparency discourse - PMC (nih.gov) Another widely cited source is a 2011 study published by the Woodrow Wilson Center. This estimates 546 million gallons were spilled in Nigeria . WOW!!!! Not too hard to clean up that size of spill actually....... 490,000 gallons Size and capacityThe Olympic sized pool is 165 feet long by 56 feet wide (8 lap lanes, each 7 feet wide). It holds 490,000 gallons (almost 1/2 million gallons). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,656 RP January 12 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said: WOW!!!! Not too hard to clean up that size of spill actually....... 490,000 gallons Size and capacityThe Olympic sized pool is 165 feet long by 56 feet wide (8 lap lanes, each 7 feet wide). It holds 490,000 gallons (almost 1/2 million gallons). You try swimming in it! Also cover every square inch of the inside of your house and try living in it, including your bed, your clothes, your food etc. Edited January 12 by Rob Plant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 12 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said: WOW!!!! Not too hard to clean up that size of spill actually....... 490,000 gallons Size and capacityThe Olympic sized pool is 165 feet long by 56 feet wide (8 lap lanes, each 7 feet wide). It holds 490,000 gallons (almost 1/2 million gallons). Depends on how you define "clean up." A "small" spill on land is typically "cleaned up" by removing the dirty soil and putting it in a landfill. A spill into water uses a lot of booms and other stuff that ends up in a landfill or waste disposal site (swan hills). Edited January 12 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,384 DL January 12 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rob Plant said: No I didnt reference just 1 which was the last one and the worst, I also posted this link in the same post The 10 Worst Oil Spills in History (businessinsider.com) Take from it what you will If you honestly think a wind turbine falling into the sea is worse than any of these oil spills ecologically then youre crazy, and that was the point notsonice was originally making to Specinho! You said this "Give us some stats on eco-disaster caused by oil spills. Is it significant?" And I gave you the data from the last oil spill, you can argue all you like but those are the facts and data that you asked for! and yes I think that pretty bloody significant, dont you? Rob, you claimed "oil disaster"...and what do we see? There has been NO oil disaster worthy of making your list since 2010!! You are screaming your lungs out over nothing, as usual. Take a relaxant and sit down. Edited January 12 by Ecocharger 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,384 DL January 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rob Plant said: You try swimming in it! Also cover every square inch of the inside of your house and try living in it, including your bed, your clothes, your food etc. Sure, if you dunk your head into a barrel of oil it will be messy, so don't do that. But don't start screaming about problems which have not happened since 2010, people will begin to think that you are Chicken Little. Edited January 12 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,656 RP January 12 33 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Rob, you claimed "oil disaster"...and what do we see? There has been NO oil disaster worthy of making your list since 2010!! You are screaming your lungs out over nothing, as usual. Take a relaxant and sit down. I referred to the Macondo disater not oil disaster, are you saying the Horizon oil spill wasnt a disaster? People died! thousands upon thousands of animals were killed, livelihoods decimated, the ecology for hundreds of miles compromised. Yeah thats a disaster in my book When not if it happens again it will again be a disaster. If you think it isnt then youre a blind oil shill I have posted all the ongoing oil spills (1300) since 2010 in the US and the 546 million gallons spilled in Nigeria alone since 2011 and all you can say is "nothing to see here, move along!" No wonder you love coal! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,656 RP January 12 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Sure, if you dunk your head into a barrel of oil it will be messy, so don't do that. But don't start screaming about problems which have not happened since 2010, people will begin to think that you are Chicken Little. Youre showing how dumb you are now. "But don't start screaming about problems which have not happened since 2010" Theyre happenning all the time ffs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills I bet you wouldnt call me chicken to my face! Edited January 12 by Rob Plant Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,384 DL January 12 1 hour ago, Rob Plant said: I referred to the Macondo disater not oil disaster, are you saying the Horizon oil spill wasnt a disaster? People died! thousands upon thousands of animals were killed, livelihoods decimated, the ecology for hundreds of miles compromised. Yeah thats a disaster in my book When not if it happens again it will again be a disaster. If you think it isnt then youre a blind oil shill I have posted all the ongoing oil spills (1300) since 2010 in the US and the 546 million gallons spilled in Nigeria alone since 2011 and all you can say is "nothing to see here, move along!" No wonder you love coal! Rob, your list of oil disasters ENDED in 2010. Thank you for your list. The rest of your shrieking is over non-disaster material. But we have had a major energy disaster after 2010, and that was in Japan, and it was not oil related but nuclear related. If you want to worry over energy disasters, I suggest that you be concerned about nuclear and the horrific potential there to cause widespread disaster. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,384 DL January 12 (edited) 6 hours ago, Rob Plant said: Youre showing how dumb you are now. "But don't start screaming about problems which have not happened since 2010" Theyre happenning all the time ffs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills I bet you wouldnt call me chicken to my face! Rob, you are a joke. Those spills are small ones which were quickly dealt with. You are screaming like Chicken Little over minor stuff. If you want to panic, look at the real danger spots in the nuclear business. You should be trying to stop the next Chernobyl or Fukushima from happening. And, no, I am not interested in seeing your face. I have better faces to look at closer to home. Edited January 12 by Ecocharger 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,384 DL January 12 China is going all out to increase oil production and oil usage. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/China-Reports-Record-Oil-and-Natural-Gas-Production-in-2023.html "China achieved record-breaking crude oil and natural gas production in 2023, with unconventional gas contributing significantly to the overall figures. Despite fluctuations in demand and some disappointment among analysts, both domestic production and imports of energy commodities reached historic highs. While Chinese oil demand growth may slow in the future, its natural gas demand growth is likely to remain robust as it increases the use of natural gas in power generation." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 12 (edited) 3 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Rob, you are a joke. Those spills are small ones which were quickly dealt with. You are screaming like Chicken Little over minor stuff. If you want to panic, look at the real danger spots in the nuclear business. This guy considers the death of dozens of people "minor stuff." He also can't understand that environmental damage can't be "quickly dealt with." It can be hidden, downplayed, and forgotten but the damage is still there. Edited January 12 by TailingsPond 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
specinho + 441 January 13 (edited) On 1/12/2024 at 4:39 PM, Rob Plant said: This why EWO If wholesale gas gets cheaper, why don't bills for households go down too? The short version is that they do get cheaper, just not right away. Wholesale energy prices got dramatically more expensive in 2021, which had a knock-on effect on domestic utility bills. Wholesale gas got more expensive, which meant that electricity was in higher demand, making that more expensive too. In the graph below ⬇️ you can see that increases in the orange line (your bills) rise after peaks in the green line (wholesale gas prices) This is because almost all energy companies buy their power through a process called hedging, which is buying energy in advance. Why are energy bills still rising when wholesale prices have come down? | One Utility Bill Gas price has dropped from 4+ to 2.3.... haven't you noticed in the newsletter? Thanks to your prime minister. Another £ 2.5 billion free money for ukraine instead of reducing energy bills for citizens. Mismanagement of budget without knowing priority, yet overly generous on wasteful stuff is the primary reason why prices for essential including water and energy keep increasing worldwide. Edited January 13 by specinho 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old-Ruffneck + 1,178 er January 13 On 1/12/2024 at 8:18 AM, TailingsPond said: Depends on how you define "clean up." A "small" spill on land is typically "cleaned up" by removing the dirty soil and putting it in a landfill. A spill into water uses a lot of booms and other stuff that ends up in a landfill or waste disposal site (swan hills). You have no clue what you are even talking about on this matter. Please try to read some imformation on said subject before letting your fingers hit the keyboard. I won't be antagonist about this other than "suggesting" some reading on this. While it is unfortunate that folks die working in the oil industry, we have no alternative yet to OIL. Batteries and EV cars are very mother earth unfriendly also. So let's all quit driving and ride bikes. Not battery powered bikes either. Manual labor type of bikes. Just remember, even the paved roads with asphalt are oil based..... 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old-Ruffneck + 1,178 er January 13 On 1/12/2024 at 8:15 AM, Rob Plant said: You try swimming in it! Also cover every square inch of the inside of your house and try living in it, including your bed, your clothes, your food etc. Do you drive? Take meds, or even dress in anything other than 100% cotton, which also uses by-products of oil to help it grow. Almost everything in everyday lives uses OIL. Get over bashing it as your being a hypocrite/no possible way to live in todays society without oil. Get educated before you hit the keyboard. Inquiring minds wanna know how you get by without a car, shampoo, plastics etc. Teach us all how to live without oil please. 2 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 14 (edited) 12 hours ago, Old-Ruffneck said: You have no clue what you are even talking about on this matter. Please try to read some imformation on said subject before letting your fingers hit the keyboard. I won't be antagonist about this other than "suggesting" some reading on this. While it is unfortunate that folks die working in the oil industry, we have no alternative yet to OIL. Batteries and EV cars are very mother earth unfriendly also. So let's all quit driving and ride bikes. Not battery powered bikes either. Manual labor type of bikes. Just remember, even the paved roads with asphalt are oil based..... Yes, we should all ride more bicycles. One of my good bicycling buddies (yes pedal bikes) works as a biologist for Enbridge. He told me that their preferred form of "remediation" was land-filling contaminated soil. Yes, there are times when the government won't allow that, or the spill is too distant from large landfills, and so they have to treat on site with more costly measures. Keep defending human deaths as minor. Edited January 14 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 14 11 hours ago, Old-Ruffneck said: Do you drive? Take meds, or even dress in anything other than 100% cotton, which also uses by-products of oil to help it grow. Almost everything in everyday lives uses OIL. Get over bashing it as your being a hypocrite/no possible way to live in todays society without oil. Get educated before you hit the keyboard. Inquiring minds wanna know how you get by without a car, shampoo, plastics etc. Teach us all how to live without oil please. Medicines and plastics make up a small portion of oil consumption. The fact is the vast majority of oil is burnt for energy. Try to show me otherwise. Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 14 On 1/12/2024 at 11:21 AM, Ecocharger said: Rob, your list of oil disasters ENDED in 2010. Thank you for your list. The rest of your shrieking is over non-disaster material. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disaster Tell that to all the innocent people who died in 2013. You are a horrible person. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old-Ruffneck + 1,178 er January 14 6 hours ago, TailingsPond said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-Mégantic_rail_disaster Tell that to all the innocent people who died in 2013. You are a horrible person. You read the story? While it is very sad many folks perished the cause was not oil. The MMA has alleged that the lead locomotive was tampered with after Harding had left; that the diesel engine was shut down, thereby disabling the compressor powering the air brakes, which allowed the train to roll downhill from Nantes into Lac-Mégantic once the air pressure dropped in the reservoirs on the cars.[45] Teamsters Canada Rail Conference vice-president Doug Finnson disputed this theory, stating that the key braking system on a stopped, unsupervised train are the hand brakes, which are completely independent from the motor-powered compressor that feeds the air brakes.[69] With all the locomotives shut down, the air compressor no longer supplied air to the air brake system. As air leaked from the brake system, the main air reservoirs were slowly depleted, gradually reducing the effectiveness of the locomotive air brakes. At 00:56, the air pressure had dropped to a point at which the combination of locomotive air brakes and hand brakes could no longer hold the train, and it began to roll downhill toward Lac-Mégantic, just over 11 kilometres (7 mi) away.[39][70] A witness recalled watching the train moving slowly toward Lac-Mégantic without the locomotive lights on.[71] The track was not equipped with track circuits to alert the rail traffic controller to the presence of a runaway train.[46] About ten minutes before the derailment occurred, firefighter Jean-Luc Montminy, who was heading home after helping put out the fire on the original locomotive of the train, was stopped at a railway crossing located on Quebec Route 161, located just south-east of where the train began to roll. He stated that the crossing had activated and was warning of an oncoming train, but after waiting for some time, he heard no horn or any signal that a train was approaching. Thinking that the crossing was malfunctioning, he proceeded over the intersection when just as he had finished crossing, a train without its headlights or horn passed through at a very fast speed. Montminy recognized that it was the same train he had responded to hours earlier, and quickly returned to Nantes to inform other firefighters about what he had just witnessed.[72] Gathering momentum on the long downhill slope, the train entered the town of Lac-Mégantic at high speed.[73][45][74] The TSB's final report concluded that the train was travelling at 105 kilometres per hour (65 mph), more than six times the typical speed for that location.[39][40] The rail line in this area is on a curve and has a speed limit for trains of 16 kilometres per hour (10 mph)[74] as it is located at the west end of the Mégantic rail yard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,141 January 14 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said: You read the story? While it is very sad many folks perished the cause was not oil. The MMA has alleged that the lead locomotive was tampered with after Harding had left; that the diesel engine was shut down, thereby disabling the compressor powering the air brakes, which allowed the train to roll downhill from Nantes into Lac-Mégantic once the air pressure dropped in the reservoirs on the cars.[45] Teamsters Canada Rail Conference vice-president Doug Finnson disputed this theory, stating that the key braking system on a stopped, unsupervised train are the hand brakes, which are completely independent from the motor-powered compressor that feeds the air brakes.[69] With all the locomotives shut down, the air compressor no longer supplied air to the air brake system. As air leaked from the brake system, the main air reservoirs were slowly depleted, gradually reducing the effectiveness of the locomotive air brakes. At 00:56, the air pressure had dropped to a point at which the combination of locomotive air brakes and hand brakes could no longer hold the train, and it began to roll downhill toward Lac-Mégantic, just over 11 kilometres (7 mi) away.[39][70] A witness recalled watching the train moving slowly toward Lac-Mégantic without the locomotive lights on.[71] The track was not equipped with track circuits to alert the rail traffic controller to the presence of a runaway train.[46] About ten minutes before the derailment occurred, firefighter Jean-Luc Montminy, who was heading home after helping put out the fire on the original locomotive of the train, was stopped at a railway crossing located on Quebec Route 161, located just south-east of where the train began to roll. He stated that the crossing had activated and was warning of an oncoming train, but after waiting for some time, he heard no horn or any signal that a train was approaching. Thinking that the crossing was malfunctioning, he proceeded over the intersection when just as he had finished crossing, a train without its headlights or horn passed through at a very fast speed. Montminy recognized that it was the same train he had responded to hours earlier, and quickly returned to Nantes to inform other firefighters about what he had just witnessed.[72] Gathering momentum on the long downhill slope, the train entered the town of Lac-Mégantic at high speed.[73][45][74] The TSB's final report concluded that the train was travelling at 105 kilometres per hour (65 mph), more than six times the typical speed for that location.[39][40] The rail line in this area is on a curve and has a speed limit for trains of 16 kilometres per hour (10 mph)[74] as it is located at the west end of the Mégantic rail yard. What is truly pathetic is that all the Railroad lines have not had computerized control for speed and their GPS location. No human hand other than STOP should even be required to run a train. Gets back for why all trains should be underground or overhead under computer control. Apparently only Japan has gotten the memo back in the 1970's. Neither the USA nor EU got the memo. The numbers are truly SHOCKING Japan had a TOTAL of 3 derailments and 5 casualties in their ENTIRE country... https://www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/statistics_rail.html ***** Japan does not include people committing suicide by train ***** Neither does anyone else... So, for equivalent populations of USA/EU Japan would have ~9 derailments and 15 causualties... Meanwhile in USA in 2022: 2201 collissions, 272 fatalities and 824 severe injuries... Not including employee etc would be my guess in these numbers. https://oli.org/track-statistics/collisions-casualties-year Meanwhile in EU it is even worse: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Railway_safety_statistics_in_the_EU In 2022, there were 1 615 significant railway accidents in the EU, with a total of 808 persons killed and 593 seriously injured. Welcome to reality folks, BIG STEEL heavy machines are dangerous. EDIT: Meanwhile: Aircraft WORLDWIDE have less than 1000 deaths per year. This includes Joe in his homebuillt who doesn't know how to fly and ultralights who get one puff of wind downdraft and smack into a cliff. EDIT: USA in last 20 years of commercial aviation has had a total of 150 deaths and zero in the last 10 years. 2 people have died on a plane which were counted from some dumb ass reason... SO, solutions for safe effective travel exist, depends on political will to change. Edited January 14 by footeab@yahoo.com 1 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 14 4 hours ago, Old-Ruffneck said: You read the story? While it is very sad many folks perished the cause was not oil. The MMA has alleged that the lead locomotive was tampered with after Harding had left; that the diesel engine was shut down, thereby disabling the compressor powering the air brakes, which allowed the train to roll downhill from Nantes into Lac-Mégantic once the air pressure dropped in the reservoirs on the cars.[45] Teamsters Canada Rail Conference vice-president Doug Finnson disputed this theory, stating that the key braking system on a stopped, unsupervised train are the hand brakes, which are completely independent from the motor-powered compressor that feeds the air brakes.[69] With all the locomotives shut down, the air compressor no longer supplied air to the air brake system. As air leaked from the brake system, the main air reservoirs were slowly depleted, gradually reducing the effectiveness of the locomotive air brakes. At 00:56, the air pressure had dropped to a point at which the combination of locomotive air brakes and hand brakes could no longer hold the train, and it began to roll downhill toward Lac-Mégantic, just over 11 kilometres (7 mi) away.[39][70] A witness recalled watching the train moving slowly toward Lac-Mégantic without the locomotive lights on.[71] The track was not equipped with track circuits to alert the rail traffic controller to the presence of a runaway train.[46] About ten minutes before the derailment occurred, firefighter Jean-Luc Montminy, who was heading home after helping put out the fire on the original locomotive of the train, was stopped at a railway crossing located on Quebec Route 161, located just south-east of where the train began to roll. He stated that the crossing had activated and was warning of an oncoming train, but after waiting for some time, he heard no horn or any signal that a train was approaching. Thinking that the crossing was malfunctioning, he proceeded over the intersection when just as he had finished crossing, a train without its headlights or horn passed through at a very fast speed. Montminy recognized that it was the same train he had responded to hours earlier, and quickly returned to Nantes to inform other firefighters about what he had just witnessed.[72] Gathering momentum on the long downhill slope, the train entered the town of Lac-Mégantic at high speed.[73][45][74] The TSB's final report concluded that the train was travelling at 105 kilometres per hour (65 mph), more than six times the typical speed for that location.[39][40] The rail line in this area is on a curve and has a speed limit for trains of 16 kilometres per hour (10 mph)[74] as it is located at the west end of the Mégantic rail yard. The explosion was from the oil. Yes, it was a rail accident but once again the death and destruction was from the oil. If that train was full of grain do you think the destruction would have been the same? Of course not. Furthermore, according your "logic" none of the other disasters would be due to oil either. After all the oil itself didn't cause the spills, it's the tankers, pipelines, rigs, etc. that fail. Try to understand that without the oil operations there would be no accidents involving oil, ever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 14 (edited) 4 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Gets back for why all trains should be underground or overhead under computer control. Apparently only Japan has gotten the memo back in the 1970's. Neither the USA nor EU got the memo. The numbers are truly SHOCKING Yeah, a small island nation is clearly the same as a nation the size of Canada or USA. 378,000 square Km for Japan versus 9,985,000 square Km for Canada. Perhaps, just perhaps, a one-size-fits all infrastructure solution is not the best way to go. Laughable. Edited January 14 by TailingsPond Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,141 January 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, TailingsPond said: Yeah, a small island nation is clearly the same as a nation the size of Canada or USA. 378,000 square Km for Japan versus 9,985,000 square Km for Canada. Perhaps, just perhaps, a one-size-fits all infrastructure solution is not the best way to go. Laughable. Hey lazy bones who can't be bothered to look basic shit up: Japan is as large as the ENTIRE Eastern Coast of USA and has ~120Million people. USA East Coast has a population of ~120 Million over same area. The deaths and collisions are not happening in bumpkin backwoods Wyoming... Only injuries in Wyoming were by RR employees repairing track etc. There were a couple fatalities by train hobo's though... Otherwise--> Zero collisions in 2023. https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/publicsite/Query/CasualitiesReport.aspx Edited January 14 by footeab@yahoo.com 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 505 GE January 14 (edited) 18 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Hey lazy bones who can't be bothered to look basic shit up: Japan is as large as the ENTIRE Eastern Coast of USA and has ~120Million people. USA East Coast has a population of ~120 Million over same area. The deaths and collisions are not happening in bumpkin backwoods Wyoming... Only injuries in Wyoming were by RR employees repairing track etc. There were a couple fatalities by train hobo's though... Otherwise--> Zero collisions in 2023. https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/publicsite/Query/CasualitiesReport.aspx How much area does a line define? I showed you numbers demonstrating the ridiculousness of your idea. I was not lazy at all. Fact is most railroads in north America are just crossing relatively flat, boring, land. The idea that all railroads should be underground or elevated is so silly, ludicrous. PS New York already has subways. Edited January 14 by TailingsPond 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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