Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, TailingsPond said: It is horse blinders not blinkers. Cars are not an investment, they are a liability. When you buy groceries do you call that an investment? Shockingly the value of food drops to zero fairly shortly after buying it. Of course cars are an investment.. The returns are mostly future. You are saying that consumer durables are not investments? What whacky school did you study at? https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/economics-econometrics-and-finance/durable-good "...it is appropriate to treat the expenditures on consumer durables as a form of investment that yields a flow of consumption services. " The loss of most of your investment in one year is far beyond the depreciation rates of fossil fuel cars...I guess that is why you drive a fossil fuel car. You are not as foolish as you pretend to be. Edited July 11 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 11 45 minutes ago, TailingsPond said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsCriICZ-nA It's really cool how fast they can do stuff. Like no joke they can fill your gas and change 4 tires in 2 seconds. While the EV racer is stalled in the pit taking hours to charge. The fossil fuel cars dominate racing, no audience will wait around for the EV to charge. You have me laughing, thanks for making my day. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 11 (edited) 3 hours ago, TailingsPond said: No, don't play the hypocrite card, very weak sauce. Do you own a helicopter, plane, or spaceship? Probably not, however, they still are really cool things. Does the fact you don't own any of those vehicles mean they suck? Likewise, I think chemotherapy saves lives, but I'm very happy that I don't need it. Does the fact I haven't bought any chemotherapeutic agents somehow make chemo less valuable? Try harder. Pathetic response...the fact is that fossil fuels cars make sense, so you own one. Just come clean and acknowledge it. You don't need to grovel around looking for an excuse. Edited July 11 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM July 11 (edited) 7 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Pathetic response...the fact is that fossil fuels cars make sense, so you own one. Just come clean and acknowledge it. You don't need to grovel around looking for an excuse. Peak oil already happened (China/India in 2024 is now with a decrease in Oil demand) and you are arguing about how great clunkers are?????? take a read of BPs latest on oil demand....now you can stop your babbling about oil demand being hot and getting hotter. BP , in their analysis , they assumed an increased demand out of China in 2024 when it is in actual decline so peak happened in 2019 with a dead cat bounce in 2023 no surprise that you keep babbling BS about your love for clunkers as your Luddite world is collapsing as you babble on.... get with reality and trade in your piece of crap clunker and get yourself, at least, an EV-plugin hybrid and clean up your act.......unless you really love breathing in crappy particulates The Guardian BP predicts global oil demand will peak in 2025, bringing to end rising emissions Report says peak will bring to end to rising emissions as wind and solar capacity surges, but gas forecasts likely to cause concern. . 7 hours ago Crude Oil Prices Today | OilPrice.com BP Predicts Global Oil Demand Will Peak In 2025 British Oil & Gas giant BP Plc has predicted that global oil demand will peak next year while wind and solar capacity will continue to grow... . 15 hours ago Edited July 11 by notsonice 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,013 GE July 11 19 hours ago, Ecocharger said: While the EV racer is stalled in the pit taking hours to charge. The fossil fuel cars dominate racing, no audience will wait around for the EV to charge. You must be epic stupid to think they would recharge the batteries instead of swapping. Pop out dead battery, pop in new one. Surely you have done this in your life with various devices. You can pretend the EV race cars will lose to fossil fuel but it is not true even according to F1 themselves. They know the EVs would dominate so are creating a new league. Should anyone take auto racing advice from a guy who wrote it takes a few minutes to refuel a car when in reality it is less than 2 seconds? Leave your biases at the door bud. 1 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,013 GE July 11 20 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Pathetic response...the fact is that fossil fuels cars make sense, so you own one. Just come clean and acknowledge it. You don't need to grovel around looking for an excuse. Our next car will be an EV. I'm not going to replace our working cars for no reason. There is no groveling man, I don't even care what you think. I'm just providing education. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM July 11 47 minutes ago, TailingsPond said: You must be epic stupid to think they would recharge the batteries instead of swapping. Pop out dead battery, pop in new one. Surely you have done this in your life with various devices. You can pretend the EV race cars will lose to fossil fuel but it is not true even according to F1 themselves. They know the EVs would dominate so are creating a new league. Should anyone take auto racing advice from a guy who wrote it takes a few minutes to refuel a car when in reality it is less than 2 seconds? Leave your biases at the door bud. Ecochump is not playing with a full deck of cards................ He actually does not have a spare battery for anything and he waits by his charger (s) (even with his phone) until they are fully charged......and he does not know better that he can also do some other task will the batteries charge up.....He clocks time everyday stuck in a watch the paint dry mentality he is unaware that you can swap battery packs........ as he is the King of the Luddites.........He is stuck in the past and he is unable to move forward 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 11 Fossil fuel cars rule, and will continue to rule. New fossil fuel auto technology still comes forward. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/The-Future-May-Not-Be-As-Electric-as-We-Think.html "Renault, China’s Geely, and Saudi Aramco are investing in new internal combustion engine technology. Renault and Geely are opting for an alternative way to achieve it, through fuel efficiency and other tech advancements in internal combustion. Affordability is one of the factors that make drivers loyal to the ICE technology." "Xinhua reported earlier this week that the total number of cars on Chinese roads had reached 440 million at the end of June. Of these, the data showed, new energy vehicles had a share of 24.72 million. Of these, 18.13 million were plug-in electric vehicles—what we commonly call EVs, and the rest were hybrids. In percentage terms, then, EVs represent barely a 4.1% of the Chinese market. In other words, even in the world’s biggest EV market, with billions spent on charging infrastructure and making EVs dirt cheap, most drivers still prefer internal combustion vehicles." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM July 11 2 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Fossil fuel cars rule, and will continue to rule. New fossil fuel auto technology still comes forward. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/The-Future-May-Not-Be-As-Electric-as-We-Think.html "Renault, China’s Geely, and Saudi Aramco are investing in new internal combustion engine technology. Renault and Geely are opting for an alternative way to achieve it, through fuel efficiency and other tech advancements in internal combustion. Affordability is one of the factors that make drivers loyal to the ICE technology." "Xinhua reported earlier this week that the total number of cars on Chinese roads had reached 440 million at the end of June. Of these, the data showed, new energy vehicles had a share of 24.72 million. Of these, 18.13 million were plug-in electric vehicles—what we commonly call EVs, and the rest were hybrids. In percentage terms, then, EVs represent barely a 4.1% of the Chinese market. In other words, even in the world’s biggest EV market, with billions spent on charging infrastructure and making EVs dirt cheap, most drivers still prefer internal combustion vehicles." "Renault, China’s Geely, and Saudi Aramco are investing in new internal combustion engine technology.????? yawn Saudi Aramco?????? they are building cars now??????? an internal combustion engine has its thermodynamic limitations ....remember when you took thermo in college??? the Otto cycle ring a bell.......you can only squeeze out a max of 35 percent conversion of fuel energy to useful energy out of an ICE engine and todays tech is already there.IE nothing more to squeeze unless you are one of the idiots who believes you can add water to the gas and get more energy.......a Luddite dream you keep hoping for a miracle as the rest of the world moves to EVs/ and Plug in Hybrids.........China is now at 50 percent new vehicle sales...Most Chinese now prefer EVs/plug in Hybrids when buying a new car and the China market is the biggest in the world..... Enjoy the Boom 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old-Ruffneck + 1,256 er July 12 2 hours ago, notsonice said: Saudi Aramco?????? they are building cars now??????? The Saudi oil giant likes to spread its eggs across several baskets, and it looks like the ICE basket is still quite popular. People are still buying a lot more internal combustion engine cars than electric vehicles. A lot of EV drivers want to go back to their internal combustion engine car. Things are not looking good for the electrification of transport, with the normal glitches of new technology still being sorted out. However, they are looking as robust as ever for internal combustion. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,013 GE July 12 23 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Of course cars are an investment.. The returns are mostly future. Depends on what you do with the car and your definition of investment. Do you consider tools an investment? A fancy snap-on socket set costs a lot and only depreciates over time. The tool may increase your ability to make money, but by itself it just loses money. Even if you need tools for your job getting cheaper tools than snap-on will provide a faster return on the "investment." If you deliver pizzas a car is a tool that increases your ability to make money. If you do work from a computer the car does not increase your income at all, only expenses. The value of the car in both cases decreases over time. The pizza guys car will be near worthless in a short time - I hope he got big tips to cover the wear and tear. A good investment requires no work on your part, just your initial buy in. You can buy some equities that pay a dividend, mutual funds, GICs, or even a decent saving account. Let the money work for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM July 12 19 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said: The Saudi oil giant likes to spread its eggs across several baskets, and it looks like the ICE basket is still quite popular. People are still buying a lot more internal combustion engine cars than electric vehicles. A lot of EV drivers want to go back to their internal combustion engine car. Things are not looking good for the electrification of transport, with the normal glitches of new technology still being sorted out. However, they are looking as robust as ever for internal combustion. Aramco is not building any ICE cars for from it...they are themselves at best working on better fuels out of their own refineries (which all are run for the most part by ex-pats) The Saudis themselves ....I do not think they have designed/built any of their gas or oil anything... and on cars ...they love to partner up with others...IE they will invest ...toss money in and let others do the work...... on EVs ...they want to be part of it...well sorta ...\once again they rely on partners Oil giant Saudi Arabia welcomes electric vehicles to the kingdom movinonconnect.com https://www.movinonconnect.com › nos-actualites › oil... Saudi Arabia, the world's second-largest oil producer, is developing its first electric vehicles. The year-old Riyadh startup Ceer Motors, a joint venture . California-based EV maker Lucid opens first-ever auto ... CNN https://www.cnn.com › business › lucid-saudi-arabia Sep 27, 2023 — Californian EV-maker Lucid has opened the first ever car manufacturing plant in Saudi Arabia, as the kingdom looks to establish itself as a ... Saudi Arabia wants to become a force in electric-vehicle ... The Economist https://www.economist.com › 2023/09/28 › saudi-arabi... Sep 28, 2023 — It says it wants to make 500,000 evs a year by 2030, roughly equivalent to annual demand for cars in Saudi Arabia today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TailingsPond + 1,013 GE July 12 35 minutes ago, Old-Ruffneck said: The Saudi oil giant likes to spread its eggs across several baskets, and it looks like the ICE basket is still quite popular. People are still buying a lot more internal combustion engine cars than electric vehicles. A lot of EV drivers want to go back to their internal combustion engine car. Things are not looking good for the electrification of transport, with the normal glitches of new technology still being sorted out. However, they are looking as robust as ever for internal combustion. I see lots of trucks in the city with no scratches on the box. They clearly do not work with them and should drive a EV for their city commutes. If you live in rural Alberta and work with it you probably need a ICE truck. Calgary and Edmonton urban commuters should use EVs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 12 5 hours ago, TailingsPond said: Our next car will be an EV. I'm not going to replace our working cars for no reason. There is no groveling man, I don't even care what you think. I'm just providing education. Education? It looks like you skipped yours, or you took some screwy course which claimed that consumer durables are not investments. Man, every undergrad taking Econ 100 knows better than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, TailingsPond said: Depends on what you do with the car and your definition of investment. Do you consider tools an investment? A fancy snap-on socket set costs a lot and only depreciates over time. The tool may increase your ability to make money, but by itself it just loses money. Even if you need tools for your job getting cheaper tools than snap-on will provide a faster return on the "investment." If you deliver pizzas a car is a tool that increases your ability to make money. If you do work from a computer the car does not increase your income at all, only expenses. The value of the car in both cases decreases over time. The pizza guys car will be near worthless in a short time - I hope he got big tips to cover the wear and tear. A good investment requires no work on your part, just your initial buy in. You can buy some equities that pay a dividend, mutual funds, GICs, or even a decent saving account. Let the money work for you. You still confused about consumer durables? You must have failed that Econ 100 course at Bushleague U. Do a little research before you spout your defective grasp of basic economic concepts. Consumer durables generally refers to substantial personal investments such as cars, refrigerators, washing machines, expensive televisions, furniture. A pocket screwdriver does not make the grade of a major purchase. In the aggregate, consumer durables are an important category of personal spending and wealth which impacts national product accounts. Edited July 12 by Ecocharger 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
footeab@yahoo.com + 2,194 July 12 14 minutes ago, Ecocharger said: Education? It looks like you skipped yours, or you took some screwy course which claimed that consumer durables are not investments. Man, every undergrad taking Econ 100 knows better than that. Appears you did not get your education: Those are called DEPRECIATING ASSETS and have a depreciation table which everyone uses. NOT consumer durables and certainly NOT investments. Investments appreciate in a perfect world. A car does NOT appreciate. It depreciates. It is NOT an investment. In no circumstance does a refrigerator appreciate in value. In fact the second you buy these consumer "durables" such as a refrigerator, a loss of 50% happens instantly if you ever use it a single time. A car loses less per year, but lose value it certainly does. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Plant + 2,756 RP July 12 China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June | OilPrice.com As Eco says "Oil is hot and getting hotter" 🤣 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM July 12 4 hours ago, Rob Plant said: China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June | OilPrice.com As Eco says "Oil is hot and getting hotter" 🤣 some of the highlights....demand is worse than the 11 percent slump........as stockpiling is not real demand China has likely added 1.08 million bpd of crude to its commercial or strategic inventories in May, up from 830,000 bpd going to stockpiles in April, according to estimates by Reuters columnist Clyde Russell based on official Chinese data. bigger yet the article that you posted makes no mention of the effect of booming EV sales are having or the long term effect. and trying to find the article (which was just put out this morning) is not to be found on the home page????? I am not finding it all day 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 12 15 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said: Appears you did not get your education: Those are called DEPRECIATING ASSETS and have a depreciation table which everyone uses. NOT consumer durables and certainly NOT investments. Investments appreciate in a perfect world. A car does NOT appreciate. It depreciates. It is NOT an investment. In no circumstance does a refrigerator appreciate in value. In fact the second you buy these consumer "durables" such as a refrigerator, a loss of 50% happens instantly if you ever use it a single time. A car loses less per year, but lose value it certainly does. Looks like I have to continue educating the general public...tuition free. No, investments often depreciate with time, that is not the key to understanding the concept. "Investments" refers to products which generate a stream of output or services over a prolonged period of time. Period. Cars do not depreciate 75% in the first year, if that happens you have made a bad investment. Cars, like houses, do not always depreciate and could even sometimes appreciate depending on the market. https://www.progressive.com/answers/cars-that-appreciate-the-most/ "Most vehicles depreciate over time, but there are some cars that increase and appreciate in value. It's not always easy to predict which new models will become future classics and which will end up in the junkyard, but cars worth more decades later often share some common characteristics. They are typically rare, have design elements that were the first of their kind, and have a loyal fan base." The folks who bet on those Hummer EVs were hoping for special value to be attached to their investment. They were disappointed. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/economics-econometrics-and-finance/durable-good "...it is appropriate to treat the expenditures on consumer durables as a form of investment that yields a flow of consumption services. " I was once a successful tutor for first year economics students, it looks like I have to turn the page back and start over with some of the bloggers here. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 12 5 hours ago, Rob Plant said: China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June | OilPrice.com As Eco says "Oil is hot and getting hotter" 🤣 Oil is now bigger than ever in China. More than 99% of the transportation sector is fossil fuel based. China is investing in developing new fossil fuel cars in a big way. There may be temporary downturns in oil demand during recessionary pressures, such as the rpesent time, but the future is bright for oil in China. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/The-Future-May-Not-Be-As-Electric-as-We-Think.html "Renault, China’s Geely, and Saudi Aramco are investing in new internal combustion engine technology. Renault and Geely are opting for an alternative way to achieve it, through fuel efficiency and other tech advancements in internal combustion. Affordability is one of the factors that make drivers loyal to the ICE technology." Chinese road vehicles are overwhelmingly fossil fuel, 96%. "Xinhua reported earlier this week that the total number of cars on Chinese roads had reached 440 million at the end of June. Of these, the data showed, new energy vehicles had a share of 24.72 million. Of these, 18.13 million were plug-in electric vehicles—what we commonly call EVs, and the rest were hybrids. In percentage terms, then, EVs represent barely a 4.1% of the Chinese market. In other words, even in the world’s biggest EV market, with billions spent on charging infrastructure and making EVs dirt cheap, most drivers still prefer internal combustion vehicles." 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 12 1 hour ago, notsonice said: some of the highlights....demand is worse than the 11 percent slump........as stockpiling is not real demand China has likely added 1.08 million bpd of crude to its commercial or strategic inventories in May, up from 830,000 bpd going to stockpiles in April, according to estimates by Reuters columnist Clyde Russell based on official Chinese data. bigger yet the article that you posted makes no mention of the effect of booming EV sales are having or the long term effect. and trying to find the article (which was just put out this morning) is not to be found on the home page????? I am not finding it all day I had to correct your numbers, buddy. Only 4% of Chinese road vehicles are EV, which means 96% are fossil fuel. In California, the numbers are 3% EV and 97% fossil fuel. No real difference there, China is still fossil fuel based transport and China is developing new fossil fuel auto technology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM July 12 1 hour ago, Ecocharger said: I had to correct your numbers, buddy. Only 4% of Chinese road vehicles are EV, which means 96% are fossil fuel. In California, the numbers are 3% EV and 97% fossil fuel. No real difference there, China is still fossil fuel based transport and China is developing new fossil fuel auto technology. I had to correct your numbers, buddy.?????? not my numbers they are Oilprice's if you want you can send them an email and tell them that you are correcting them...I am sure they will do a retraction of their article super fast....Ha ha ha China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June | OilPrice.com as for Chinas EVs New car sales is at 50 percent..... and are now replacing clunkers on the road at a rate of over 5 million a year this year alone....2025 oh boy it will be a fire sale of clunkers as no new dealer will want a clunker for a trade in.... Try trading in your clunker in China....they will give you scrap value as the market for used clunkers is going to crap in China..... Rome was not built in a day...Looks look in China the road to over 90 percent new sales of EVs/Pluggins is only going to take 3 more years to build 2027 and new clunker sales in China....Less than 2 million a year......... Enjoy the slumps in Oil ...... more to come Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ecocharger + 1,486 DL July 14 (edited) On 7/12/2024 at 4:46 PM, notsonice said: I had to correct your numbers, buddy.?????? not my numbers they are Oilprice's if you want you can send them an email and tell them that you are correcting them...I am sure they will do a retraction of their article super fast....Ha ha ha China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June China's Crude Oil Imports Slump 11% in June | OilPrice.com as for Chinas EVs New car sales is at 50 percent..... and are now replacing clunkers on the road at a rate of over 5 million a year this year alone....2025 oh boy it will be a fire sale of clunkers as no new dealer will want a clunker for a trade in.... Try trading in your clunker in China....they will give you scrap value as the market for used clunkers is going to crap in China..... Rome was not built in a day...Looks look in China the road to over 90 percent new sales of EVs/Pluggins is only going to take 3 more years to build 2027 and new clunker sales in China....Less than 2 million a year......... Enjoy the slumps in Oil ...... more to come Only 4% of Chinese road vehicles are EV, which means 96% are fossil fuel. In California, the numbers are 3% EV and 97% fossil fuel. No real difference there, China is still fossil fuel based transport and China is developing new fossil fuel auto technology. Enjoy. Edited July 14 by Ecocharger Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notsonice + 1,266 DM July 14 4 hours ago, Ecocharger said: Only 4% of Chinese road vehicles are EV, which means 96% are fossil fuel. In California, the numbers are 3% EV and 97% fossil fuel. No real difference there, China is still fossil fuel based transport and China is developing new fossil fuel auto technology. Enjoy. try to keep up Luddite Only 4% of Chinese road vehicles are EV, which means 96% are fossil fuel.????? you are living in the past, Luddite times are changing fast in less than 6 months EVs are now over 7% of the vehicles on the road and fossil fueled.........less than 93 % are clunkers ......in less than a year EVs sales doubled in China at this pace clunkers will be less than 50 percent of the vehicles on the road in China in less than 7 years clunkers are being scrapped on a mass scale and the EVs are now a majority of sales and Oil demand ....you need to change your tune from hot and getting hotter to abandon ship .....we hit an iceberg.........everyman for himself (OPEC is toast) enjoy the read Clunkers are on the way out........ At the end of June, China's NEV ownership reached 24.72 million vehicles, accounting for 7.18 percent of the total vehicle ownership of 440 million, according to data released today by China's Ministry of Public Security (MPS). https://cnevpost.com/2024/07/08/china-nev-ownership-25-million-jun-2024/ as of the end of June 2024, China's BEV ownership amounted to 18.134 million vehicles, accounting for 73.35 percent of the total NEVs. China's new energy-vehicle (NEV) ownership continues to grow, as penetration approaches 50 percent.6 days ago China's NEV ownership reaches 24.72 million by end of Jun CnEVPost https://cnevpost.com › Industry News https://cnevpost.com/2024/07/12/china-2024-nev-sales-expected-11-5-million-caam/ A total of 11.5 million units means that China's NEV sales will exceed the 10 million mark for the first time in 2024, representing a growth rate of 22 percent.2 days ago China's 2024 NEV sales expected to reach 11.5 million, says ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Old-Ruffneck + 1,256 er July 14 6 hours ago, notsonice said: At the end of June, China's NEV ownership reached 24.72 million vehicles, accounting for 7.18 percent of the total vehicle ownership of 440 million, according to data released today by China's Ministry of Public Security (MPS). And you believe China's Ministry of Public Security?? Wow, you are what you preach Luddite!! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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