Should the US government be on the hook for $15 billion?

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

16 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The Presidential Permit is only for crossing the border, not constructing the right of way:

By virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States of America, I hereby grant permission, subject to the conditions herein set forth, to TransCanada Keystone Pipeline, L.P. (hereinafter referred to as the “permittee”), to construct, connect, operate, and maintain pipeline facilities at the international border of the United States and Canada at Phillips County, Montana, for the import of oil from Canada to the United States.

The term “Border facilities,” as used in this permit, means those parts of the Facilities consisting of a 36-inch diameter pipeline extending from the international border between the United States and Canada at a point in Phillips County, Montana, to and including the first mainline shut-off valve in the United States located approximately 1.2 miles from the international border, and any land, structures, installations, or equipment appurtenant thereto.

Sure, but the question is, have such Presidential permits been REQUIRED for other American pipeline companies which also cross the border? That goes to the issue of "national treatment".

Edited July 17, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

16 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Biden's best move now would be to cancel the Dakota Access Pipeline that also crosses the Sioux lands and is currently held up for the same environmental reasons and say "See I treated them equally". The more pipeline projects he cancels the better.

If Biden & Co. take steps now to level the playing field for Keystone with respect to other pipeline companies, I think that the time-frame has nevertheless already been determined for this particular action. The Presidential Permit itself looks to be something issued by President Trump during the previous administration, and this case even predates Trump, citing developments during the Obama years. So the time frame is probably at least ten years.

The action has already been filed prior to any prospective remedial action....it wouldn't matter.

I think that Biden & Co. right now want as much as possible oil to flow into America to ease the price-at-the-pump for gasoline, which is causing economic pain to Biden's grassroots supporters.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

10 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

If Biden & Co. take steps now to level the playing field for Keystone with respect to other pipeline companies, I think that time has nevertheless already run out for this particular action. The Presidential Permit itself looks to be something issued by President Trump during the previous administration, and this case even predates Trump, citing developments during the Obama years. So the time frame is probably at least ten years.

The only time limit is what the lawyers can convince the tribunal to accept. The fact that it has run for so long bodes well for adding a few more years on to get the full picture.

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

12 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The only time limit is what the lawyers can convince the tribunal to accept. The fact that it has run for so long bodes well for adding a few more years on to get the full picture.

Again, I have no law degree, but read extensively for a couple of actions.

The idea that Biden & Co. could take remedial action now to validate themselves with respect to "national treatment" would have no effect on the previous years' worth of "non-national treatment". If Biden & Co. were to unilaterally compensate Keystone from out of the blue at this time, they would be given credit for this on the final tab for damages. But the bottom line is that the damages have already been done under a systemic regime of government practice which may have violated national treatment. To say that now starting next year there will no longer be a violation of national treatment is a day late and a dollar short.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

5 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Again, I have no law degree, but read extensively for a couple of actions.

The idea that Biden & Co. could take remedial action now to validate themselves with respect to "national treatment" would have no effect on the previous years' worth of "non-national treatment". If Biden & Co. were to unilaterally compensate Keystone from out of the blue at this time, they would be given credit for this on the final tab for damages. But the bottom line is that the damages have already been done under a systemic regime of government practice which may have violated national treatment. To say that now starting next year there will no longer be a violation of national treatment is a day late and a dollar short.

The core of national treatment is a comparison to how others have been treated. It is absolutely relevant to look at treatment both before and after plaintiff's case. 

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,192]

On 7/16/2021 at 8:05 PM, Jay McKinsey said:

Biden's best move now would be to cancel the Dakota Access Pipeline that also crosses the Sioux lands and is currently held up for the same environmental reasons and say "See I treated them equally". The more pipeline projects he cancels the better.

I would gladly cut off California of all oil/ng products.  Let you religious nutjobs stew in the idiocy you preach

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

13 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

I would gladly cut off California of all oil/ng products.  Let you religious nutjobs stew in the idiocy you preach

2045, same as Washington state. 

[-trance + 114]

30 minutes ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

I would gladly cut off California of all oil/ng products.

If California cut you off food you might not be so happy.

Also California has some oil... "up from the ground come the bubbling crude..."

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

4 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

The core of national treatment is a comparison to how others have been treated. It is absolutely relevant to look at treatment both before and after plaintiff's case. 

Before but not after. In fact, if the defendant comes to court and says, I am no longer violating the principle being complained of, that is tantamount to an admission of liability in the previous period. It might remove liability going forward, but the liability would remain for the previous period. And it would acknowledge the previous liability. "Oh, sorry. I am not going to do that any more." I cannot see that happening.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

11 minutes ago, -trance said:

If California cut you off food you might not be so happy.

Also California has some oil... "up from the ground come the bubbling crude..."

The truth is that Californians and their favorite President Biden & Co. are crying their lungs out, begging the oil producers to increase oil production, and take some of the financial hurt off their pockets at the gasoline pump. 

There is an old saying, "What goes around, comes around." Or, better still, "Be careful what you wish for, you might get it."

They've got it now, just what they wanted, financial pain in spades. Ouch!!

Edited July 18, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

37 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

The truth is that Californians and their favorite President Biden & Co. are crying their lungs out, begging the oil producers to increase oil production, and take some of the financial hurt off their pockets at the gasoline pump. 

 

Speaking from California, a few miles from the Tesla factory, I can assure you that your statement is a lie you pulled out of your arse.

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

2 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Before but not after. In fact, if the defendant comes to court and says, I am no longer violating the principle being complained of, that is tantamount to an admission of liability in the previous period. It might remove liability going forward, but the liability would remain for the previous period. And it would acknowledge the previous liability. "Oh, sorry. I am not going to do that any more." I cannot see that happening.

You've got that all backward. TC is complaining of being treated differently than others. If the gov't continues to treat others the same as they treated TC then they will show a course of consistent treatment to all.

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[specinho + 470]

On 7/13/2021 at 9:22 PM, -trance said:

That graph is from US.  World numbers would be different. 

Burning for electricity, burning for transportation, burning to fuel a industrial process doesn't really change much.  Fact remains most oil is burnt.

mmm..... thank you for the insight shared. 👍

However........ I am not sure if this observation is correct but.......

If that article and chart do not include natural gas, most liquid petroleum products might be indeed as pictured. Motor engines would top the chart of usage due to the designs of the engines. The cost of usage is limiting factor for other sectors.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/use-of-oil.php

According to the source enclosed, power stations in the United States are made up of

42 coal plants (~38%)

33 nuclear plants (~30%)

19 natural gas and NG dominant plants (17%)

10 hydro plants (9%)

7 mixed plants (~6%)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_power_stations_in_the_United_States

Then, electricity production might not be merely 1% ( 0.2 barrel) of the consumption that is so much less than transportation of 12 million barrels??

If we would like to imagine further, battery of a car is 70kw and a natural gas plant is run at Gw capacity.......the amount required by 19 plants should not be just 0.2 barrel, yes?

 

 

[Eric Gagen + 713]

19 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Sure, but the question is, have such Presidential permits been REQUIRED for other American pipeline companies which also cross the border? That goes to the issue of "national treatment".

Yes, they are required for all cross border pipelines regardless of ownership structure, and it’s been the law without substantial changes since at least 1978 https://openei.org/wiki/10_C.F.R._§§_205.320_–_205.329,_Application_for_Presidential_Permit

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Eric Gagen

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

8 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Speaking from California, a few miles from the Tesla factory, I can assure you that your statement is a lie you pulled out of your arse.

You, personally speak for all Californians? Do tell oh Oz the magnificent

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, Ward Smith said:

You, personally speak for all Californians? Do tell oh Oz the magnificent

Well Eco was presuming to speak for all Californians and he doesn't even live here. Oh great fence post.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

21 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

The truth is that Californians and their favorite President Biden & Co. are crying their lungs out, begging the oil producers to increase oil production, and take some of the financial hurt off their pockets at the gasoline pump. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Well Eco was presuming to speak for all Californians and he doesn't even live here. Oh great fence post.

Oh dumbass, please read what was written. He said "Californians" never all Californians. You spoke from on high as if no Californians held that view. Apparently you're too stupid to grok social media, where Californians are bitching up a storm about gasoline and diesel prices rapidly approaching $6 per gallon in some places. But yeah, you know better, what with your EV and partisan paid position. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 minute ago, Ward Smith said:

 

Oh dumbass, please read what was written. He said "Californians" never all Californians. You spoke from on high as if no Californians held that view. Apparently you're too stupid to grok social media, where Californians are bitching up a storm about gasoline and diesel prices rapidly approaching $6 per gallon in some places. But yeah, you know better, what with your EV and partisan paid position. 

Yeah why don't you read what was written schmuck. 

"Speaking from California, a few miles from the Tesla factory, I can assure you that your statement is a lie you pulled out of your arse."

[QuarterCenturyVet + 312]

7 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

Yeah why don't you read what was written schmuck. 

"Speaking from California, a few miles from the Tesla factory, I can assure you that your statement is a lie you pulled out of your arse."

So your little area doesn't care. There's north of 33 million people around you, and likely, a fuck-ton of them hate the fact that their gas is $6/gal, you donkey. 

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

15 minutes ago, QuarterCenturyVet said:

So your little area doesn't care. There's north of 33 million people around you, and likely, a fuck-ton of them hate the fact that their gas is $6/gal, you donkey. 

It isn't $6 moron. It is $4.30. Same as the summer before the pandemic. We are at normal.

Here is an article from 2019:

California Gas Prices Hit 5-Year High, Are Nearly $1.50 Above the National Average

LOCAL NEWS

by: Tracy Bloom

Posted: Oct 2, 2019 / 03:30 PM PDT / Updated: Oct 2, 2019 / 03:42 PM PDT

How much is gas in Calgary?  

Edited July 19, 2021 by Jay McKinsey

[-trance + 114]

6 minutes ago, Jay McKinsey said:

It isn't $6 moron. It is $4.30. Same as the summer before the pandemic. 

Ask QCV how much a litre of gas is in Calgary right now.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by -trance

[-trance + 114]

12 minutes ago, QuarterCenturyVet said:

There's north of 33 million people around you, and likely, a fuck-ton of them hate the fact that their gas is $6/gal, you donkey. 

Ever visit San Francisco?  You don't see many parking lots or gas stations.

[nsdp + 449]

On 7/17/2021 at 3:10 PM, Ecocharger said:

Again, I have no law degree, but read extensively for a couple of actions.

The idea that Biden & Co. could take remedial action now to validate themselves with respect to "national treatment" would have no effect on the previous years' worth of "non-national treatment". If Biden & Co. were to unilaterally compensate Keystone from out of the blue at this time, they would be given credit for this on the final tab for damages. But the bottom line is that the damages have already been done under a systemic regime of government practice which may have violated national treatment. To say that now starting next year there will no longer be a violation of national treatment is a day late and a dollar short.

The problem is TCN is being a bunch of hypocrites.  They got  permits for this line  and an increase in the import license which started operation two weeks ago. Pipeline developments to disrupt Pacific Northwest gas inflows and spot gas prices

"TC Energy’s Gas Transmission Northwest will increase capacity through Kingsgate, the pipeline’s entry point for gas flowing into the Pacific Northwest from western Canada, to 2.25 Bcf / d starting July 10, according to a notice posted on the pipeline’s website on July 9."https://stormfieldservicesllc.com/pipeline-developments-to-disrupt-pacific-northwest-gas-inflows-and-spot-gas-prices/

They had to get a new presidential permit  from President Biden.

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:14 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

Speaking from California, a few miles from the Tesla factory, I can assure you that your statement is a lie you pulled out of your arse.

It came from Biden & Co....read their press releases this last week.

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:22 AM, Jay McKinsey said:

You've got that all backward. TC is complaining of being treated differently than others. If the gov't continues to treat others the same as they treated TC then they will show a course of consistent treatment to all.

 

They will show an act of contrition and repentance, which will work against them in court.