Should the US government be on the hook for $15 billion?

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

1 hour ago, turbguy said:

I'd offer a dollar more.

You didn't answer the question, but responding with a neighboring place with listings of 25 million dollar condos that can't be accessed in the winter without calling property management well in advance.

Just how much IS Yellowstone NP worth??

If Biden & Co. start selling off the nation's parks and assets to foreign bidders, the White House will be hosting a new occupant.

[turbguy + 1,545]

5 minutes ago, Ecocharger said:

If Biden & Co. start selling off the nation's parks and assets to foreign bidders, the White House will be hosting a new occupant.

Still no answer, probably as it is price-less.

"Some things are not for sale".

That's why you can realize other revenue sources from the assets.

Limited Naming Rights is the first one that comes to mind.

The BLM sells off federal property every year.   And leases a lot, as well.

Edited July 30, 2021 by turbguy

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

54 minutes ago, nsdp said:

The 10% surcharge on individual and corporate income tax paid for the cost of the war. That is why LBJ was the last President to run a "planned"budget surplus. Clinton had an accidental one.

Damn you are dumb. "This is the day many budget experts thought might never come. The fiscal year that ends tonight at midnight is the first since 1969 -- the year Neil Armstrong walked on the moon and 400,000 rock fans spent a weekend at Woodstock -- that the nation has recorded a federal budget surplus." https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/budget/stories/surplus093098.htm

Nope, Johnson paid for the war by printing money, and the resulting inflation allowed him to pay down government debt with depreciated dollars. The result was inflation. The same system continued through the seventies, with poor Jimmy Carter claiming that persistent inflation was caused by greedy Americans, he had no clue about the real cause of inflation.

Get to work and read, please.

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

21 minutes ago, nsdp said:

without the initial negotiations which were never done by the Great White Father  there is no right of eminent domain.  Try to get a ROW across Dine lands without it.  That is why the SantaFe RR has a big S curve in their Chicago to LA mainline and why Exxon does not have a line from the Jicarilla Apache reservation  near Chama to Page AZ.

Your ramblings have nothing to do with the subject at hand. No pipeline company is going to waste money negotiating ROW if the Presidential permit is about to be withdrawn. Tribal ROW negotiations always succeed, so that was not the problem here.

[turbguy + 1,545]

1 minute ago, Ecocharger said:

Tribal ROW negotiations always succeed, so that was not the problem here.

In the past they "always succeed", or else...

...we just took it.

Now, tribes can afford lawyers.

And the work of those lawyers ain't very hard.

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

3 hours ago, nsdp said:

The 10% surcharge on individual and corporate income tax paid for the cost of the war. That is why LBJ was the last President to run a "planned"budget surplus. Clinton had an accidental one.

Damn you are dumb. "This is the day many budget experts thought might never come. The fiscal year that ends tonight at midnight is the first since 1969 -- the year Neil Armstrong walked on the moon and 400,000 rock fans spent a weekend at Woodstock -- that the nation has recorded a federal budget surplus." https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/budget/stories/surplus093098.htm

Clinton got a "budget surplus" by cooking the books on social security. Period. Do try and keep up

Edited July 30, 2021 by Ward Smith

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

3 hours ago, turbguy said:

In the past they "always succeed", or else...

...we just took it.

Now, tribes can afford lawyers.

And the work of those lawyers ain't very hard.

And the result is another deal, that's how it always ends.

[turbguy + 1,545]

7 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

And the result is another deal, that's how it always ends.

And that deal is, put in your project.  Not on this land.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

14 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Your ramblings have nothing to do with the subject at hand. No pipeline company is going to waste money negotiating ROW if the Presidential permit is about to be withdrawn. Tribal ROW negotiations always succeed, so that was not the problem here.

Well there is a problem with all this tribalism...It's all about ownership and the law of the land...Speaking to that issue...it would seem a smidge confusing. 

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/sd-blackhills/

The region has been inhabited by Native Americans for almost 10,000 years. The Arikara arrived in the Black Hills by about 1500 A.D., followed by the Cheyenne, Crow, Kiowa, and Pawnee.

[turbguy + 1,545]

37 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Well there is a problem with all this tribalism...It's all about ownership and the law of the land...Speaking to that issue...it would seem a smidge confusing. 

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/sd-blackhills/

The region has been inhabited by Native Americans for almost 10,000 years. The Arikara arrived in the Black Hills by about 1500 A.D., followed by the Cheyenne, Crow, Kiowa, and Pawnee.

It's more about occupancy than ownership, when dealing with a human culture that did not recognize any "ownership" of the landscape.

[Eyes Wide Open + 3,555]

27 minutes ago, turbguy said:

It's more about occupancy than ownership, when dealing with a human culture that did not recognize any "ownership" of the landscape.

Seriously you just said that? Perfect tell that to the Crow's or perhaps the Cheyenne...people's. Your understanding of Tribal ownership and relationships is well a smidge thin....And who are we to decide? Actually we took the hills, it was the law of the land for eon's.

The Crow remained bitter enemies of both the Sioux and Cheyenne. The Crow managed to retain a large reservation of more than 9300 km² despite territorial losses, due in part to their cooperation with the federal government against their traditional enemies, the Sioux and Blackfoot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow_people#:~:text=The Crow remained bitter enemies,enemies%2C the Sioux and Blackfoot.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Eyes Wide Open

[nsdp + 449]

15 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Your ramblings have nothing to do with the subject at hand. No pipeline company is going to waste money negotiating ROW if the Presidential permit is about to be withdrawn. Tribal ROW negotiations always succeed, so that was not the problem here.

Failure to conduct the attempt to negotiate is all the DOJ has to show under the ICT rules of evidence to get the case kicked out. It is the fundamental problem.

[nsdp + 449]

16 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

And the result is another deal, that's how it always ends.

You have never negotiated with the Dine' smart ass, They give you a route and that is where you go or not at all. That is why The Santa Fe main line fro LA to Chicago comes into New Mexico at Gallop and curves south to  Socorro (off reservation) then NE to Amarillo. Exxon does not have a line going west from the Jicarilla Apache reservation to Four Corners for a connection to Northwest Pipeline.  They go south to El Paso NG or Gas Co of NM.  Tres' Amigos  Superstation (Hunt Oil)died because they could not get ROW to San Juan /Four Corners  from Clovis for connection to LADWP, SCE, Marketplace/ McCullough/ Lake Meade and APS/Salt River. https://cms.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-05/20140411132234-W2-A%20-%20Manz.pdf

[nsdp + 449]

20 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

Nope, Johnson paid for the war by printing money, and the resulting inflation allowed him to pay down government debt with depreciated dollars. The result was inflation. The same system continued through the seventies, with poor Jimmy Carter claiming that persistent inflation was caused by greedy Americans, he had no clue about the real cause of inflation.

Get to work and read, please.

I did. It is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_and_Expenditure_Control_Act_of_1968 demonstrates how little you know about the the Tax Code.

 

18 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Clinton got a "budget surplus" by cooking the books on social security. Period. Do try and keep up

the

[footeab@yahoo.com + 2,192]

21 hours ago, Ward Smith said:

Clinton got a "budget surplus" by cooking the books on social security. Period. Do try and keep up

Sigh... THE PRESIDENT... has NOTHING to do with the BUDGET.

Republicans for the first time in ~40+ years took the House of Representatives and barely held the Senate for a short period of time pushed through a balanced budget.  Part of that balance was skewing the SS if what you claim is true(my memory is not that good).  Another part was growth rate assumptions and the US economy was exploding on the back of the new home computer wave(you know back when the USA had manufacturing jobs and a middle class), and a large part was eliminated spending(mostly military), though a lot of this happened early 90's.  All those normalized inflation increases were cut.  Why programs like Future naval fighter got eliminated, Future Combat Systems got eliminated(effected me by the way full disclosure), etc etc. 

Clinton NEVER got a budget surplus.

PS: Both you and NSDP are right and both wrong at the same time.  USA was printing more money(true).  Increased taxes(true), but what kicked the USA OFF the Gold Standard was France, Britain, etc who started demanding GOLD instead of paper currency.  Just as the USA had done in the 30's and early 40's when Britain tried to change the Gold/pound exchange rate to get out of debt from WWI. 

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

13 hours ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

Well there is a problem with all this tribalism...It's all about ownership and the law of the land...Speaking to that issue...it would seem a smidge confusing. 

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/sd-blackhills/

The region has been inhabited by Native Americans for almost 10,000 years. The Arikara arrived in the Black Hills by about 1500 A.D., followed by the Cheyenne, Crow, Kiowa, and Pawnee.

Of course, but when has a tribe failed to negotiate a pipeline ROW? Those negotiations always work.

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

11 hours ago, nsdp said:

Failure to conduct the attempt to negotiate is all the DOJ has to show under the ICT rules of evidence to get the case kicked out. It is the fundamental problem.

No, the DOJ is not the arbiter here. The tribunal is international and will consider whether or not the Keystone people had reason to suspect that the Presidential permit might be withdrawn by a new President. Did they have reasonable grounds to suspect that?  I think so.

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

7 hours ago, nsdp said:

You have never negotiated with the Dine' smart ass, They give you a route and that is where you go or not at all. That is why The Santa Fe main line fro LA to Chicago comes into New Mexico at Gallop and curves south to  Socorro (off reservation) then NE to Amarillo. Exxon does not have a line going west from the Jicarilla Apache reservation to Four Corners for a connection to Northwest Pipeline.  They go south to El Paso NG or Gas Co of NM.  Tres' Amigos  Superstation (Hunt Oil)died because they could not get ROW to San Juan /Four Corners  from Clovis for connection to LADWP, SCE, Marketplace/ McCullough/ Lake Meade and APS/Salt River. https://cms.ferc.gov/sites/default/files/2020-05/20140411132234-W2-A%20-%20Manz.pdf

So those pipelines found a ROW for their route, exactly what I have been pointing out to you umpteen times. Not a problem. The tribal negotiations I have seen always come to a revenue-sharing agreement. I cannot imagine that a well-represented tribe would turn down good money.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Ecocharger + 1,477]

7 hours ago, nsdp said:

I did. It is called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_and_Expenditure_Control_Act_of_1968 demonstrates how little you know about the the Tax Code.

 

the

When did you get your economics education?  Or did you get one? Persistent inflation, which prevailed in the mid-1960s to 1980s period, is caused by too  much money, and why would a government want to fuel inflation with excess money? To pay off NATIONAL DEBT with depreciated dollars. So you had a persistent problem with that routine throughout the seventies.

Jimmy Carter told the nation that inflation was caused by the personal greed of Americans, showing how clueless his economic advisors were. The consensus among policy makers in the nineties finally emerged that inflation was bad, that monetary stimulus maintained during periods of full employment caused inflation, and that inflation was not the greedy choices of producers and workers. 

That consensus is breaking down following the recent federal election, and the temptation exists to escape the current fiscal disaster by printing money again. Tragedy will follow.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Ecocharger

[Jay McKinsey + 1,490]

1 hour ago, Ecocharger said:

When did you get your economics education?  Or did you get one? Persistent inflation, which prevailed in the mid-1960s to 1980s period, is caused by too  much money, and why would a government want to fuel inflation with excess money? To pay off NATIONAL DEBT with depreciated dollars. So you had a persistent problem with that routine throughout the seventies.

Jimmy Carter told the nation that inflation was caused by the personal greed of Americans, showing how clueless his economic advisors were. The consensus among policy makers in the nineties finally emerged that inflation was bad, that monetary stimulus maintained during periods of full employment caused inflation, and that inflation was not the greedy choices of producers and workers. 

That consensus is breaking down following the recent federal election, and the temptation exists to escape the current fiscal disaster by printing money again. Tragedy will follow.

Where did you get your economics education?

[Ward Smith + 6,615]

11 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Sigh... THE PRESIDENT... has NOTHING to do with the BUDGET.

Republicans for the first time in ~40+ years took the House of Representatives and barely held the Senate for a short period of time pushed through a balanced budget.  Part of that balance was skewing the SS if what you claim is true(my memory is not that good).  Another part was growth rate assumptions and the US economy was exploding on the back of the new home computer wave(you know back when the USA had manufacturing jobs and a middle class), and a large part was eliminated spending(mostly military), though a lot of this happened early 90's.  All those normalized inflation increases were cut.  Why programs like Future naval fighter got eliminated, Future Combat Systems got eliminated(effected me by the way full disclosure), etc etc. 

Clinton NEVER got a budget surplus.

PS: Both you and NSDP are right and both wrong at the same time.  USA was printing more money(true).  Increased taxes(true), but what kicked the USA OFF the Gold Standard was France, Britain, etc who started demanding GOLD instead of paper currency.  Just as the USA had done in the 30's and early 40's when Britain tried to change the Gold/pound exchange rate to get out of debt from WWI. 

I'm well aware of everything you've said, moreso even because I suspect I'm older. However, in the vernacular, the President is credited with what happens under his administration and there are literally hundreds of articles discussing Clinton's budget surplus. Rather than try and correct all that, I just point out the facts such as they are. BTW Clinton did agree to the budget, albeit that he wanted to further bankrupt the country with universal health (Hillary Care). 

I've posted here multiple times about gold and France specifically. France took the 10's of billions leaned to them via the Marshall plan and demanded remittance in gold. When asked why he would do that to a friend and ally, DeGaul famously said, "countries don't have friends, they only have interests".

[nsdp + 449]

10 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

No, the DOJ is not the arbiter here. The tribunal is international and will consider whether or not the Keystone people had reason to suspect that the Presidential permit might be withdrawn by a new President. Did they have reasonable grounds to suspect that?  I think so.

You really are dense. DOJ is functioning as as advocate. TCN had every expectation that the permit would be withdrawn. Dec. 19 2019, the US District Court for the District of Montana ruled that the grant was ultra vires (void on its face) and issued an injunction.. That was affirmed by a 3 judge panel and The US Supreme Court affirmed administratively by refusing a writ of cert granting hearing 7-2. I suggest that you learn the rules of practice and appellate  procedure issued by the US Supreme Court.

My jail house lawyer clients know you have to file a paupers oath or  supersedeas to keep the permit alive.  TCN never bothered.  Jail house lawyers are terrible lawyers but they know more than you do. One  of them even knew DEA had to do a NEPA study before spraying herbicide in Mexico. National Organizationfor the Reform of Marijuana Laws v. United States, 452 F. Supp.1226 (D.D.C. 1978).

[nsdp + 449]

12 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

So those pipelines found a ROW for their route, exactly what I have been pointing out to you umpteen times. Not a problem. The tribal negotiations I have seen always come to a revenue-sharing agreement. I cannot imagine that a well-represented tribe would turn down good money.

The Dine do turn down pocket change.   You have never dealt with Ann Begay's deceases husband.  Exxon did not get a 15 mile ROW and had to build 65 miles down to Espanola and connect with GCNM.  That sent their gas to Albuquerque not Bloomfield.   It doesn't sound like you have worked anything important   and certainly not in the Four Corners.  The well  represented tribes get $400 per lineal foot ($20/sq fit) for a 20 foot wide ROW. Just how many tribal ROWs have you done . which tribe? Not the Dine.

[nsdp + 449]

12 hours ago, Ecocharger said:

When did you get your economics education?  Or did you get one? Persistent inflation, which prevailed in the mid-1960s to 1980s period, is caused by too  much money, and why would a government want to fuel inflation with excess money? To pay off NATIONAL DEBT with depreciated dollars. So you had a persistent problem with that routine throughout the seventies.

Jimmy Carter told the nation that inflation was caused by the personal greed of Americans, showing how clueless his economic advisors were. The consensus among policy makers in the nineties finally emerged that inflation was bad, that monetary stimulus maintained during periods of full employment caused inflation, and that inflation was not the greedy choices of producers and workers. 

That consensus is breaking down following the recent federal election, and the temptation exists to escape the current fiscal disaster by printing money again. Tragedy will follow.

Triple major, math science, space physics and economics from Rice.  Did you major in any thing more difficult than business adm or basket weaving or radio/tv?

[nsdp + 449]

https://www.apmex.com/education/history/the-gold-standard-throughout-us-history

19 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Sigh... THE PRESIDENT... has NOTHING to do with the BUDGET.

Republicans for the first time in ~40+ years took the House of Representatives and barely held the Senate for a short period of time pushed through a balanced budget.  Part of that balance was skewing the SS if what you claim is true(my memory is not that good).  Another part was growth rate assumptions and the US economy was exploding on the back of the new home computer wave(you know back when the USA had manufacturing jobs and a middle class), and a large part was eliminated spending(mostly military), though a lot of this happened early 90's.  All those normalized inflation increases were cut.  Why programs like Future naval fighter got eliminated, Future Combat Systems got eliminated(effected me by the way full disclosure), etc etc. 

Clinton NEVER got a budget surplus.

PS: Both you and NSDP are right and both wrong at the same time.  USA was printing more money(true).  Increased taxes(true), but what kicked the USA OFF the Gold Standard was France, Britain, etc who started demanding GOLD instead of paper currency.  Just as the USA had done in the 30's and early 40's when Britain tried to change the Gold/pound exchange rate to get out of debt from WWI. 

 

22 hours ago, footeab@yahoo.com said:

Sigh... THE PRESIDENT... has NOTHING to do with the BUDGET.

Republicans for the first time in ~40+ years took the House of Representatives and barely held the Senate for a short period of time pushed through a balanced budget.  Part of that balance was skewing the SS if what you claim is true(my memory is not that good).  Another part was growth rate assumptions and the US economy was exploding on the back of the new home computer wave(you know back when the USA had manufacturing jobs and a middle class), and a large part was eliminated spending(mostly military), though a lot of this happened early 90's.  All those normalized inflation increases were cut.  Why programs like Future naval fighter got eliminated, Future Combat Systems got eliminated(effected me by the way full disclosure), etc etc. 

Clinton NEVER got a budget surplus.

PS: Both you and NSDP are right and both wrong at the same time.  USA was printing more money(true).  Increased taxes(true), but what kicked the USA OFF the Gold Standard was France, Britain, etc who started demanding GOLD instead of paper currency.  Just as the USA had done in the 30's and early 40's when Britain tried to change the Gold/pound exchange rate to get out of debt from WWI. 

"there you go again" (I love quoting Reagan) demonstrating your failing memory. Under the Budget and Accounting Act of  1921, the President wrote the budget and submitted it to the House of Representatives. That was the procedure until FY 1975 when the current Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 passed.  Britian had no right to exchange currency for gold.  Roosevelt abolished gold backed currency in 1933 as a part of the 100 days". Gold was only valid for government  to government  trade balances through the International Bank of Settlements in Geneva.

"

n 1971, as the Gold stockpile at Fort Knox dwindled due to international transactions, President Richard Nixon(not LBJ as someone claims) announced that foreign countries could no longer redeem dollars for Gold. Moving forward, paper currency was ensured only by the full faith and credit of the United States and a fully fiat monetary system was adopted.

Demand for federal funds led to double-digit inflation into the 1980s. " The Gold Standard Throughout U.S. History. https://www.apmex.com/education/history/the-gold-standard-throughout-us-history It was the second oil shock  beginning in 1979 along with Fed tightening the money supply gross overspending on military  that caused the big inflation run,