ronwagn

Two Good and Plausible Ideas about Saving Water and Redirecting it to Where it is Needed.

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(edited)

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-10-01/water-pipeline-mississippi-river

Letters to the Editor: A water pipeline from the Mississippi River doesn’t sound so crazy anymore

 

A tourist at a Lake Mead overlook snaps a photo.

A tourist overlooks Lake Mead, which is at its lowest water level since it was filled 85 years ago.
(Los Angeles Times)
OCT. 1, 2021 3 AM PT

To the editor: With our continued dire drought and experts fearing even lower reservoir water levels in the key basins of Lake Powell and Lake Mead, maybe the proposal for a water pipeline system from the Mississippi River to those lakes isn’t so crazy after all. (“A bitter dispute ends as California water agencies pledge cooperation on Colorado River,” Sept. 28)

Such proposals have been made as far back as 1965, about the time California built its grand water distribution system called the California Aqueduct. That aqueduct is an expansive system of pipelines, canals and pumping stations, and it has served Southern California beautifully all these years.

Now is a critical time for outside-the-box thinking to solve our climate-induced water shortage. I suggest we start now on a new, grand, national water distribution system from flooded water regions like the Gulf states to the lifeblood of the Southwest, the Colorado River, which critically serves seven states.

Jeff Drobman, Chatsworth

RCW  238 stories on conserving water :

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s6vxrBPC_8XYQgSNK7-UuNbqsdDKflhXPDeswYFKDt0/edit#

Edited by ronwagn
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image.png.415102bdcf9e8c813d0c5c0b558c015b.png

image.png.9977d1369591c63b4ecca55f8c34c3f4.png

Not sure if it is right to assume those rivers on the west i.e. Missouri, Arkansas, Red River are originated from the rocky mountain range?? Can some of those water be diverted to flow towards the other side??

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1 hour ago, specinho said:

image.png.415102bdcf9e8c813d0c5c0b558c015b.png

image.png.9977d1369591c63b4ecca55f8c34c3f4.png

Not sure if it is right to assume those rivers on the west i.e. Missouri, Arkansas, Red River are originated from the rocky mountain range?? Can some of those water be diverted to flow towards the other side??

 

Yes those rivers originate from the Rockies.

A whole bunch of water is diverted between the east and west basins.

Believe it or not, it is typically from the west side, to the east side!    And there are intentions to divert even more western flow to the Front Range (east side) of the Rockies!

https://aspenjournalism.org/a-zombie-pipeline-rises-to-bring-water-from-the-green-river-to-the-front-range/

Gotta keep the developers in Colorado happy.

It would make more sense to divert water within the Mississippi basin BACK to the Front Range and cease diversions from west to east, but that is way more expensive.

Whiskey's for drinkin'.  Water's for fightin'.

The western state boundaries should have been defined by divides, not arbitrary lines on a map.

There is also a (small) diversion between the Saint Laurence river basin to the Mississippi river basin, through Chicago.  There will be no further, due to agreements with Canada.

Edited by turbguy
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2 hours ago, specinho said:

image.png.415102bdcf9e8c813d0c5c0b558c015b.png

image.png.9977d1369591c63b4ecca55f8c34c3f4.png

Not sure if it is right to assume those rivers on the west i.e. Missouri, Arkansas, Red River are originated from the rocky mountain range?? Can some of those water be diverted to flow towards the other side??

 

I think that the only major river system that flows West is the Columbia River that flows through  Oregon. All of the other rivers shown are at low levels right now due to drought in the  West, including the Rocky Mountains. One more year of drought would be disastrous. They are currently pumping groundwater and actually lowering the elevation slightly. 

I have not studied the topography but assume a large amount of energy would be needed to accomplish the goal. It is definitely a good idea to start the planning IMHO. My idea is to run from the Mississippi in Southern Mississippi and use the water for agriculture where needed. West Texas could possibly be made into a great agricultural area and then it could go all the way throughout the Southwest. Branches of pipe distribution would be essential. 

This water should not be used for traditional agriculture IMHO, it should be used for farms using drip irrigation and possibly plastic mulch. 

The engineers here would have to figure out the topography and the energy needed to lift the water to the lowest levels in the high plains. If the water is flowing, freezing might not be a problem in the winter. The excess water could be directed into reservoirs to be used as needed in various areas. Water from the Mississipi is laden with lots of nutrients that flowed south from the farmlands starting throughout the Midwest all the way to Northern Minnesota. It is a major problem when it lands in the Gulf of Mexico because it creates a great dead zone. It would help reduce flooding in areas of the Mississippi that are threatened every Spring. Excess wind or solar power could be used to pump available excess water into reservoirs and the energy could also be used for other periods of time, if that is the highest and best use. 

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(edited)

3 hours ago, specinho said:

image.png.415102bdcf9e8c813d0c5c0b558c015b.png

image.png.9977d1369591c63b4ecca55f8c34c3f4.png

Not sure if it is right to assume those rivers on the west i.e. Missouri, Arkansas, Red River are originated from the rocky mountain range?? Can some of those water be diverted to flow towards the other side??

 

I think that the only major river system that flows West is the Columbia River that flows through  Oregon. All of the other rivers shown are at low levels right now due to drought in the  West, including the Rocky Mountains. One more year of drought would be disastrous. They are currently pumping groundwater and actually lowering the elevation slightly. 

I have not studied the topography but assume a large amount of energy would be needed to accomplish the goal. It is definitely a good idea to start the planning IMHO. My idea is to run from the Mississippi in Southern Mississippi and use the water for agriculture where needed. West Texas could possibly be made into a great agricultural area and then it could go all the way throughout the Southwest. Branches of pipe distribution would be essential. 

This water should not be used for traditional agriculture IMHO, it should be used for farms using drip irrigation and possibly plastic mulch. 

The engineers here would have to figure out the topography and the energy needed to lift the water to the lowest levels in the high plains. If the water is flowing, freezing might not be a problem in the winter. The excess water could be directed into reservoirs to be used as needed in various areas. Water from the Mississipi is laden with lots of nutrients that flowed south from the farmlands starting throughout the Midwest all the way to Northern Minnesota. It is a major problem when it lands in the Gulf of Mexico because it creates a great dead zone. It would help reduce flooding in areas of the Mississippi that are threatened every Spring. Excess wind or solar power could be used to pump available excess water into reservoirs and the energy could also be used for other periods of time, if that is the highest and best use. 

image.thumb.png.7624ac761d6843082a916d95d7d44181.png

Edited by ronwagn
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On 10/6/2021 at 5:46 AM, ronwagn said:

I think that the only major river system that flows West is the Columbia River that flows through  Oregon. All of the other rivers shown are at low levels right now due to drought in the  West, including the Rocky Mountains. One more year of drought would be disastrous. They are currently pumping groundwater and actually lowering the elevation slightly. 

I have not studied the topography but assume a large amount of energy would be needed to accomplish the goal. It is definitely a good idea to start the planning IMHO. My idea is to run from the Mississippi in Southern Mississippi and use the water for agriculture where needed. West Texas could possibly be made into a great agricultural area and then it could go all the way throughout the Southwest. Branches of pipe distribution would be essential. 

This water should not be used for traditional agriculture IMHO, it should be used for farms using drip irrigation and possibly plastic mulch. 

The engineers here would have to figure out the topography and the energy needed to lift the water to the lowest levels in the high plains. If the water is flowing, freezing might not be a problem in the winter. The excess water could be directed into reservoirs to be used as needed in various areas. Water from the Mississipi is laden with lots of nutrients that flowed south from the farmlands starting throughout the Midwest all the way to Northern Minnesota. It is a major problem when it lands in the Gulf of Mexico because it creates a great dead zone. It would help reduce flooding in areas of the Mississippi that are threatened every Spring. Excess wind or solar power could be used to pump available excess water into reservoirs and the energy could also be used for other periods of time, if that is the highest and best use. 

image.thumb.png.7624ac761d6843082a916d95d7d44181.png

pardon me........ I am not familiar...

If the following map is helping then it would be the most wonderful found...

image.thumb.png.c7ec4e056e2bf860975489ff211d3313.png

Mississippi River possibly receives water from many places i.e.  Lake Winnipeg, Lake Superior and Lake Erie; Missouri River, Arkansas River. The source of water might be Saskatchewan River and other areas of the Rocky Mountain? As snow melts in spring, water would be abundant.....

Therefore, reducing water flow from Saskatchewan River into the great lake area and subsequently Mississippi River might help converging areas like St.Louis, the next point near Memphis, New Orleans and places along that line?

Do they need a diverging lakes from Missouri River and Arkansas River before reaching the converging points? Excessive water can be diverted into man made reservoirs and released shall need?

May be........... try not to allow construction of new town around converging points?

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All those waterways you are referencing to provide hydro power and shipping for down stream states. Any attempt to redirect the water flow would be met with extreme resistance from down stream states.

California and Oregon have been at odd's for many yrs in regard's to water "sharing" from the Columbia river. Oregon Liberal govt has no intentions of sharing its water...it seems it is "UN" natural...But the fact is the natives hate to share..absolutely hate it.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-06-21/columbia-river-water-pipeline

https://www.google.com/search?q=missouri+and+mississippi+rivers+water+rights+legal+issues&rlz=1C1RXQR_enUS969US969&ei=rUNjYfq1MYaqwbkP6b6g-AQ&oq=missouri+and+mississippi+rivers+water+rights+legal+issues&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCrAjIFCCEQqwIyBQghEKsCOgcIABBHELADOgoILhCwAxBDEJMCOgUIABCABDoECAAQQzoGCAAQFhAeOggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCEQChCgAUoECEEYAFCQDljpVmC1ZmgCcAJ4AIABrQWIAbcdkgELOS44LjEuMS4wLjKYAQCgAQHIAQnAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz

 

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1 hour ago, specinho said:

pardon me........ I am not familiar...

 

If the following map is helping then it would be the most wonderful found...

 

 

image.thumb.png.c7ec4e056e2bf860975489ff211d3313.png

Mississippi River possibly receives water from many places i.e.  Lake Winnipeg, Lake Superior and Lake Erie; Missouri River, Arkansas River. The source of water might be Saskatchewan River and other areas of the Rocky Mountain? As snow melts in spring, water would be abundant.....

Therefore, reducing water flow from Saskatchewan River into the great lake area and subsequently Mississippi River might help converging areas like St.Louis, the next point near Memphis, New Orleans and places along that line?

Do they need a diverging lakes from Missouri River and Arkansas River before reaching the converging points? Excessive water can be diverted into man made reservoirs and released shall need?

 

May be........... try not to allow construction of new town around converging points?

Many rivers flow into the Mississippi. I don't think any of them originate in Canada. 

My thinking is to use the shortest route to the Southwest where there is great need and potential exists. The southern areas are the most prone to flooding because of their low elevations and also closest to the Southwest and its population centers. I have not made a serious study of this issue but it makes sense from what I do know. The areas near the Missouri are often using irrigation systems because they have sufficient groundwater. Droughts are alwayse possible in some areas though. The high population areas of Southern California and its Central Valley need water in times of drought, Arizona, Nevada, parts of Colorado, New Mexico, West Texas are also areas for high potential needs or future use. 

More dams are built frequently and that is generally a good idea, but right now we have a lot of empty dams so they can only use what the watersheds provide. There is opposition to more new dams because many want to keep rivers in their natural conditon. Any new plans for water use will involve complex political deals because of factionalism. 

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1 hour ago, specinho said:

pardon me........ I am not familiar...

 

If the following map is helping then it would be the most wonderful found...

 

 

image.thumb.png.c7ec4e056e2bf860975489ff211d3313.png

Mississippi River possibly receives water from many places i.e.  Lake Winnipeg, Lake Superior and Lake Erie; Missouri River, Arkansas River. The source of water might be Saskatchewan River and other areas of the Rocky Mountain? As snow melts in spring, water would be abundant.....

Therefore, reducing water flow from Saskatchewan River into the great lake area and subsequently Mississippi River might help converging areas like St.Louis, the next point near Memphis, New Orleans and places along that line?

Do they need a diverging lakes from Missouri River and Arkansas River before reaching the converging points? Excessive water can be diverted into man made reservoirs and released shall need?

 

May be........... try not to allow construction of new town around converging points?

There is a continental divide between the Great Lakes Basin and the Mississippi river Basin.  You need to find a map that shows ALL the continental divides in  North America

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57 minutes ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

All those waterways you are referencing to provide hydro power and shipping for down stream states. Any attempt to redirect the water flow would be met with extreme resistance from down stream states.

California and Oregon have been at odd's for many yrs in regard's to water "sharing" from the Columbia river. Oregon Liberal govt has no intentions of sharing its water...it seems it is "UN" natural...But the fact is the natives hate to share..absolutely hate it.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-06-21/columbia-river-water-pipeline

https://www.google.com/search?

1 hour ago, Eyes Wide Open said:

All those waterways you are referencing to provide hydro power and shipping for down stream states. Any attempt to redirect the water flow would be met with extreme resistance from down stream states.

California and Oregon have been at odd's for many yrs in regard's to water "sharing" from the Columbia river. Oregon Liberal govt has no intentions of sharing its water...it seems it is "UN" natural...But the fact is the natives hate to share..absolutely hate it.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-06-21/columbia-river-water-pipeline

https://www.google.com/search?q=missouri+and+mississippi+rivers+water+rights+legal+issues&rlz=1C1RXQR_enUS969US969&ei=rUNjYfq1MYaqwbkP6b6g-AQ&oq=missouri+and+mississippi+rivers+water+rights+legal+issues&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCrAjIFCCEQqwIyBQghEKsCOgcIABBHELADOgoILhCwAxBDEJMCOgUIABCABDoECAAQQzoGCAAQFhAeOggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCEQChCgAUoECEEYAFCQDljpVmC1ZmgCcAJ4AIABrQWIAbcdkgELOS44LjEuMS4wLjKYAQCgAQHIAQnAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz

 

 

Yes, of course anything would have to be fair to all and would be very difficult to organize. States would have to have first rights to any water that is not excess. That is why I said water that would otherwise tend to floos downstream areas. There are many towns along the Mississipi River that suffer from floods, in fact New Orleans is below sea level. Possibly the Southwest water would have to be purchased from the states where the water originated. The farther the state, the greater the price due to piping and pumping expense. 

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Many proposals over the years NWAPA is one such... the biggest and greatest such proposal.  Or just do a portion of this proposal on the Eastern Side of the Rockies and southward along with giant Canals through the plains into the Great Lakes and to Hudson Bay.

Diverting water from Columbia via half submerged pipe to CA(the most realistic).

Diverting upper Snake River through UT, into NV and onto CA is another.  2nd most realistic

Do remember that there is ~10M acres of land in the Columbia/Snake River basin which used to be irrigated and are not currently due to regulations about water for downstream hydropower.  So... May as well just talk about a giant 800 mile underground tunnel from the Columbia River to California or Eastern Washington/Oregon, S. Oregon S. Idaho which then allows the local farmers to drill down into this tunnel and pump from which would negate the hydropower contract concerns. 

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On 10/11/2021 at 3:57 AM, Eyes Wide Open said:

All those waterways you are referencing to provide hydro power and shipping for down stream states. Any attempt to redirect the water flow would be met with extreme resistance from down stream states.

California and Oregon have been at odd's for many yrs in regard's to water "sharing" from the Columbia river. Oregon Liberal govt has no intentions of sharing its water...it seems it is "UN" natural...But the fact is the natives hate to share..absolutely hate it.

Thank you for the insight.

Concern is raised regarding

a) too much water flowing down stream, especially after the snow melts away in spring, during storm etc... and

b) not enough water in other areas.

 

If, by measuring the amount of snow and predicting the rainfall during a storm could determine if there is a need of further action to prevent flood and consequential damages, what could the "further action" be?

 

There is always a concern where water might not be enough for the fast developing  activities within a state. It is always good NOT to share to prevent foreseeable dispute when water is becoming scarce e.g. during drought, or too much being used compared to water received etc. Or, if, and when, the water is polluted........

If sharing is not possible, would create one possible?? What is the best way to do so? Which route could be more beneficial? 

 

Flash flood in cities, often time, is caused by unconscious "add on projects or development" onto existing, old- town shed- planning. The route and capacity of initial drainage system usually affected. Besides that, erosion could happen more easily and soil stability would be affected. Excessive underground water could seep into buildings through unnoticed cracks caused by eroded soil and damaged structure. Flash flood becomes more frequent. Climate change has been the common targeted culprit. Other factors such as mentioned are often overlooked, or not yet noticed by most.

There might be a need to slow down the rate of over development merely for profit....... or rapid urbanization to reduce poverty.... Nature will have its way to find its balance again, if we create enough time and space for it to happen.......

image.png.115cadbd6e7df138dba695285ce950a5.png

 

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